When I die I would like to believe that I just wont rot in the ground till the end of time

BAM! That’s all any True Believer really ever needs to say.  I want to believe that reality is really a fairy tale, so I can’t believe it is otherwise or understand why anyone else would choose to not believe the fairy tale.

Harps, pasta, or even seventy-two virgins just don’t cut it.

I assume the pasta is referring to the FSM? Why don’t you believe in the FSM Zilch! His afterlife will be filled with a beer volcano, eternal pasta with meatballs and sauce (sorry vegetarians!) AND a stripper factory! I am assuming the strippers put out too, so I think FSM has a leg up over Sub-genius. 

Bob? That’s almost as crazy as worshiping a zombie!

Angel Eyes.

Go and read a little on Hinduism or Sihkism.  They hold different Creation stories to your self (though all deity based).  OTHER THAN the bible, how do you know their stories are wrong?  If the only opposition you can provide is its different to yours, consider this.

A person who has never encounted any religeon asks you why he should believe your stories.  What would you say that would differentiate you from a representative of any other religeon?

If everything is made by God, why is so much of it so badly designed?

Oh, and the money- Les uses it to pay for the hosting costs of this site.  Occassionally people pay a little extra, because your government and its supporters think it is better to bomb foriegners instead of providing healthcare for it’s citizens.

Am I the only one in here who is amused as hell? (No pun intended)

First of all I did NOT give you permission to post my email address on your website.

I thought that the risks of a Christian emailing Les about the grace of Gawd were pretty clear already.

Alright, I’m subscribing. This is bound to attract at least one WBC-type loon and I don’t want to miss it.

First, let me say yes I am amused Pato2447!!  And I believe that everyone is getting things very wrong.  I am not in anyway putting your beliefs down, so why put mine down?  This is debating.

Mr. Jenkins, I would like to thank you for posting me, although I emailed you and not joined your site.  Would you kick me off of your site if I joined?  It is an honor!  This will be the end of our relationship though.  I need to work.  You have some very good comebacks, although you did not actually answer crap just a bunch of mumbo jumbo.  But it’s cool that you tried.  Just joking.  Yes I think I would like you a lot if I met you on the street.  I should have been a lawyer, cause I love to argue.  I believe in God because I can see him in everything around me, I can feel him, and I am sorry that you cannot.  In my work, you are right.  I do depend on science.  God has given us the knowledge to help others with science.  Like I said before, I just merely want to know what you believe in.  I mean everyone believes in something.  I could have gone on about evolution, but I would have been here all night, so I did not.  I do have to raise kids and work.  Believe me I have researched it to the ground, and I still find it interesting and bewildering As for the ape thing, evolution does boil down to coming from an ape like ancestor.  And what started that first ape…I mean the very first ape.  In Christianity, man (Adam and Eve) was first created by God.  What is the beginning of your “story”? 

You said:  It’s as easy as not believing in leprechauns or the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.  The latter two of which, I might add, have presented a lot more evidence for their existence in my life than God ever has.

I don’t think I have ever believed in the tooth fairy or Santa.  I knew it was mom all along, so if that is how you see them as presenting evidence then you are more naive than I thought.  Darling since you believe there is no God I think you need to know they are not real either.  Big disappointment for you I guess, no shiny new car this Christmas!  I am also Baptist Mr. Jenkins.  Good ole Southern Baptist! 
I’m going to look more into this Bob thing, since I love to learn about other religions and customs.  Yes, I’m a reader, and I am always reading something.

MisterMook:  Why are you getting so mad?  Just because I don’t believe in the theory of evolution?  I am very interested in it.  I also find other religions very interesting.  So don’t have an aneurysm.  This is an email, not English class, and not a research paper.  Sure, you will find fragments, and punctuation errors but I did not know I was being graded.  The most I do is spell check!  Sorry professor!  That is so juvenile to attack my grammar.  If you want someone to believe in evolution, then the best thing is to not get immature.  Have I cursed?  I didn’t think so…  Oh and I did sleep during English, I hated it!

Julian: Now now guys. It isn’t nice to make fun of six year olds. I mean she isn’t even capable of coming here and defending herself

I have not joined your site because I figured you would kick me off.  As, for the 6 year old thing, talk about immaturity. I’m sorry but that IS something a 6 year old would say!  Maybe you should look at your self first.  Enough said! 

As it turns out, I think I do like all of you.  Especially you Zilch.  I hope you are doing well in Vienna, bet its pretty.  Watch out for that hail.  Gott Segnen, und passen Sie auf jenen Hagel auf! 

And cubiclegrll, you do know your bible.  I could probably learn a lot of interpretations from you.  That could do you good on Jeopardy!  I do see your point about the killings of God, and how you would get that.  Even with people who believe in God, there are so many interpretations of the bible. For example, some say a child is at the age of accountability when they reach 13or 20.  Then some say it is when an individual feels conviction.  I personally feel that there is no age because a Down syndrome child would never feel conviction.  I would love to hear your opinion since you know so much about the bible.  I am not trying to cherry pick nothing!  I will admit to you and to everyone that there are things that I don’t quite understand.  I will not say or lie to anyone, because I have been over the same things that you all are debating with me.  Therefore, there is no reason to get testy, it just a little harmless debate.  Don’t have a myocardial infarction. 

The same for Geekmom, I am very responsible.  I have to be with all that I put up with these days.  Work, taking kids to school, taking kids to baseball practice, cooking, and errands…. the list can go on!  So when there are times that I feel I can’t go on, I stop and pray for the strength.  It is a great pick me up.  Maybe if you did the same you would feel better.  I mean aren’t you a mom - GeekMOM? No need for reply! Therefore, don’t talk responsibility to me, especially when I have to worry about a million things everyday.  God really helps, what helps you?? What do you do when you can’t take it anymore?  All you have to do is ask for the help. 

Last_Hussar:  Occasionally people pay a little extra, because your government and its supporters think it is better to bomb foreigners instead of providing healthcare for it’s citizens. 

It’s just not my government, although you’re off the hook cause you are not from here but I despise that remark.  I hope you meant all the other Americans also, because I am agreeing with you!  It is very backwards.  If you remember I am a nurse.  I see it everyday.  I see thousands of people too sorry to get off their behinds and work, but yet the government pays for their healthcare.  Then I see thousands of people who work and have cancers and other diseases that can’t afford healthcare.  How can our government let these things happen? It is astonishing!  With my work and where I live, I see it everyday.  My my, you think you hit a nerve about atheism Mr. Les - well this burns me up too! 

And I do not think your site is a scam.  Saint Matthew’s—- yes that’s a scam and it looks bad for all Christians.  I am sorry for people like that.  All believers are not like that.  There has to be a way for this government to stop that.  I give “offering” on Sundays.  Your site gets donations just like churches do.  I apologize because that is not what I meant in the beginning.   

You may turn away from God but remember God never turns away from you.  I ask everyone out there who once believed… did something terrible happen?  Death of a child, death of a family member, 9 eleven?  I lived through Katrina.  Is that why you quit believing in God?  Well good bye all, and take care.  If you ever find yourself in the need of a friend then I’m here. Atheist or not, and seriously I am totally researching Bob.  God Bless! 

So, this is all I have to argue because no one has actually said how WE GOT HERE!  IT JUST HAPPENED, I FORGOT!  Goodbye all! 

P.S. I did not vote for Bush…  As for the gas prices, it’s a little cheaper here in the south (Bible Belt).  I am fairly close to many of the largest oil machinery’s and rigs; although I don’t know if that is why it is cheaper or if it will help for much longer!  And no I’m not a stripper.  There is a difference in being nice and taking your clothes off!  How degrading… isn’t that right ladies.  J

Hi,

am I the only one thinking the person responding is not the same sending in the e-mail in the first place?

Anyway, I wanted to comment on the very single point you are making. The first “ape” was started by something like this:

http://www.mcat45.com/images/Amino-Acid-MCAT.png

By the way. I do really believe in something.

I believe in science.

Cheers

p.s. Thanks Les and all you others. Keep it up!

I had to alter my comment because my first link used an “ü“^^

Angel Eyes, you seem to be forgetting that first of all, lawyers don’t argue (at least not in court), and second that no one wins an argument. Also, something tells me you’re not as well-read on the subject of evolution as you think you are.

Let me know if you’re going to say anything approaching novel.

Zilch, Barnum was wrong by an order of several magnitudes.

Abiogenesis, the study of the origins of life, is a separate science than that of evolution. That’s why we ignore every single clamoring sleigh bell of “Show me the monkey” however it’s phrased. Evolution, as an observable fact, is incontestable.

Abiogenesis, dealing with a history of the Earth going back further than nearly any other life science, is indeed muddier. The origins of life are far older than the oldest fossils and much of the original surface of the planet is literally miles under the surface of the planet by now, erasing nearly all traces of its existence. By observing other planets and forensically following existing forms through evolutionary regressions though, some basic questions about abiogenesis can be answered.

Calling for a neat little story settled in seven days when tasked with sifting through several miles of the surface, some of which is entirely inaccessible due to the motions of continental plates, chemical change, and the simple wear of time possible when you’re talking about billions of years of motion, isn’t that simple. You’re not merely looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack. You’re looking for the remains of the needle that may or may not exist still somewhere on the planet, or possibly even the near solar neighborhood, after it has been subjected to all the forces of change possible in billions of years. Abiogenesis is much less observable and more contestable than evolution.

A more simple, profound, and succinctly scientific observation might be proposed as this:

We’re here. We don’t need a reason to prove that we’re here because the fact that we’re here is apparent. Given that every other facet of life has had an observable, quantifiable natural origin it follows that it is likely that every other facet of life is perfectly explainable without resorting to the supernatural.

Our existence isn’t challenged or proposed by evolution, only our resultant form and genetic history. The very nature that most of you religious sorts choose to try to debate evolution shows a demonstrable lack of understanding of the subject.

I’m not mad at you. I just don’t have the will to be polite with uneducated people who try to pretend they’re not. You’re all the worst sort of liars, the kind that’s subscribed to your own foolishness.

It’s just not my government,

Yes it is, that’s how citizenship of a country works.  Bush is Les’ presedent, just not someone he would ever vote for.

And I do not think your site is a scam.

Well the original post said

I would never donate to your site….. talk about a scam!! What do you do with the money???

Now either you did say it was a scam, or Les doctored the original.  However there is no easy way for us to find out- anything you or he posts could have been doctored.  However I have no reason to disbelieve him at the moment, there is no percentage in misrepresenting the original.

Even with people who believe in God, there are so many interpretations of the bible.

This is one of the problems many of us have- The Bible is all true, you just can not agree what that truth is.

Here is a list of problems and poor arguements we frequently have posted.

1) “The bible is true, ergo evolution is false.“
—the problem is the only veracity of the Bible is the Bible.  Think of it this way “Anything I tell youis true.  You know that is correct because anything I tell you is true, so that must be true.“ (Circular reasoning).  Plus as you admit, there isn’t one unifying interpretation- when you know what all of you believe is the same, come back to us.

2) “Evolution can’t be true because of the eye/flagellum etc, ergo creation must be true”.  Assumption by creationists to prove creation—2 problems
  i) None of these claims have ever stood up, every “Hurricane in a junk yard” arguement (a 747 can’t just fall together like that, and life is more complex) is examined and shown how that path of evolution is possible (aka “what good is half an eye?“- plenty if it allows you to detect movement)
  ii) even if evolution was disproved (and there is no indication it is likely to be) that doen’t prove creation in any way- it isn’t an either/or thing.  All it shows is evolution would be wrong.  Its a bit like saying 2+2 doesnt equal 3 like you say, therefore it must equal 5 like I claim.
2a) Special mention for the 2nd law of thermodynamics.  The Earth draws its power from the sun, therefore isn’t a closed system.  Before quoting it make sure you read the FULL quote, not the fragment beloved of creationists.

3) “Praying helps”- Placebo effect (I won’t condesend and explain it, as you are a nurse)

4) “No it really does, what about xxx”.  Never in a scientific study.  The ‘miracles’ happen at the same frequency whether the target is prayed for or not.  Interestingly people who make miraculous recoveries have diseases where unexplained remission is known, with or with praying.  On the other hand Google God hates Amputees- bet you never saw a limb regrow after praying.

5) “But its all so complicated”  Doesn’t mean God did it- remember it started simple. Example. Now I can not imagine a Googleplex (A Google, it’s real meaning, not the name of a search engine, is a number- just as a million is 1 and 6 noughts, a google is 1 followed by a 100 zeros, a googleplex is 1 followed by a google of zeros), in fact no one can imagine it- it’s bigger than the number of all the particles in the known universe, BUT in reality it is simple to get there. Just keep adding ‘1’ to itself.

6) ‘But the Earth was obviously designed for us, look how well it all fits.‘  Actually we fit it- that is what survival of the fittest means- the best fitted, not the strongest.  Imagine a hole in the road, with a puddle in it- the puddle takes the shape of the hole, the hole does not fit around the puddle.

7) “But look how well humans are made”- Lots of very poor design in the human body, eyes, teeth, prostate, testes, spine, .

8) “Science is always being disproved” Yes, that’s what happens when people look for answers, they challenge.  Doesn’t make it bad, just means the original was working without all the facts.  Good science is corrective.  Many of the biggies were made before modern scientific method was used. Now when a scientist makes a claim he has to tell how he did it, so others can try for themselves.  This tends to find the fakes out.  Creation can not be tested, the only ‘evidence’ we have is stories from a nomadic desert tribe.

Oh, and don’t be put off from joining- Les only bans the really obnoxious and offensive.

How did man first get put on this earth.  Don’t say evolution because how did a monkey get here? I mean HELLO during caveman times the wheel was a big deal so you actually think something else could have created man!  There must be a greater power.

Okay, as usual I will preface my comments with the fact that I’m also a Christian, though I make no claims of knowing any answers to any of the greater mysteries.

Anyway, so here is my big problem with the entire concept of creationism or ID or whatever people choose to call it.

The theory is that the eye, babies, bananas, ecosystems in general etc are so varied, miraculous and complex that they could not possibly have evolved. They were created by a truly all-knowing and all-powerful entity.

My question…so where did such a great cosmic designer come from?

I’m perfectly fine with the idea that the universe has some property that causes it to want life, and that things evolve along paths in the name of that unknown property.

I am not fine with the “abracadabra” creation of a universe/world, by some physical or physical-enabled spiritual manifestation. Such a spirit must have come from somewhere, and thus must either have been created, or evolved, which gets either circular or contradictory in a really big hurry.

Like I said before, I just merely want to know what you believe in.

Doing my best, being my best, and encouraging the best in those who have managed to earn my friendship.

Subscribing - no time to comment, now.

Julian: Now now guys. It isn’t nice to make fun of six year olds. I mean she isn’t even capable of coming here and defending herself

I have not joined your site because I figured you would kick me off.  As, for the 6 year old thing, talk about immaturity. I’m sorry but that IS something a 6 year old would say!  Maybe you should look at your self first.  Enough said!

Ok that was a cheap shot. My apologies.

With all the cheeses of the world to choose from, I still go back to Velveeta

Whoa!  cubiclegrrl, I am shocked, shocked!  What a bitter disappointment!  You’ve just been demoted two and a half notches!  You’d better think about what you can do to get back in my good graces, grrl, or your name is mud!

Bachalon- I’m afraid you’re right.  But I’m still somehow optimistic, because it’s more fun than being pessimistic, and history shows us that history cannot be predicted: people surprise themselves again and again.

angel eyes- my wife has brown eyes, too, and I’m rather fond of her:  I sometimes call her “kis angyalom”,  which means “my little angel”.  I don’t believe the same as you, but you’ve got spunk, and I’m willing to bet that you are a good neighbor, and that’s what counts.  Cheers from sunny-again Vienna, zilch

My favorite parts when she says - “I mean HELLO!“ - priceless

Frumpa- they have a similar expression in Viennese dialect: nah servas!, literally “well hello!“, but it means something more like “well I never” or “what’s this shit”.

Angel Eyes writes…

Mr. Jenkins, I would like to thank you for posting me, although I emailed you and not joined your site.  Would you kick me off of your site if I joined?

No, I wouldn’t kick you off my site if you joined. You’ve said and done nothing to warrant that sort of action. I generally only delete comments that are spam and the occasional troll. I won’t delete comments simply because I don’t agree with what they say.

This will be the end of our relationship though.  I need to work.  You have some very good comebacks, although you did not actually answer crap just a bunch of mumbo jumbo.  But it’s cool that you tried.  Just joking.

Actually I provided you with a lot of answers as well as links to other threads here on SEB that directly addressed your comments such as the “have you seen your brain” question.

As is typical, however, you’ve opted to ignore most of my reply and are going to run for the hills rather than discuss any of the points raised so far.

You said:  It’s as easy as not believing in leprechauns or the tooth fairy or Santa Claus.  The latter two of which, I might add, have presented a lot more evidence for their existence in my life than God ever has.

I don’t think I have ever believed in the tooth fairy or Santa.  I knew it was mom all along, so if that is how you see them as presenting evidence then you are more naive than I thought.  Darling since you believe there is no God I think you need to know they are not real either.  Big disappointment for you I guess, no shiny new car this Christmas!

Surely you’re not so silly as to suggest that I am claiming to believe in Santa or the tooth fairy. It’s clear you’re going to read what you want in the comments left to you instead of what is actually being said. Again, this is typical of the average True Believer™.

No point in going any further with this charade then. Not only are you immune from reality, but well insulated against even discussing it.

“Nobody listens to Zathras.“

Engaging True Believer™ is as intellectually stimulating as shooting fish in a barrel. Once in a while it’s fun to ruffle some scales, but there are so many better ways to spend one’s time…

Duty Calls Elwed... 

Oooh, one of my favorite xkcd’s

Its a bit like saying 2+2 doesnt equal 3 like you say, therefore it must equal 5 like I claim.

Are you people sane. If all of creation first started with a single molecule, then who created that first single molecule not to mention the earth. As something as complex as the human body, it must be constructed by something smarter than man. If we were evolved, then why have humans stopped evolving.

Are you people sane.

I’ve always wondered, myself.

If all of creation first started with a single molecule, then who created that first single molecule not to mention the earth.

Atoms created that first single molecule, and atoms were created by massive bindings or collisions of energy early in the universe’s lifespan. You remember E=MC^2, right? Energy, as light, can be used to form mass. Mass can be released as light.

It provides for you insofar as “let there be light”. But then one has to ask - with something as complicated as an all powerful deity, who created the deity? Why, a deity’s deity of course!

See the problem here?

Rob’s first mistake is in how he frames the question:

If all of creation first started with a single molecule, then who created that first single molecule not to mention the earth.

It’s not a question of who created the first molecule because it wasn’t created by anyone. Nor was the Earth created. It formed through a natural and well understood processes.

As something as complex as the human body, it must be constructed by something smarter than man.

It doesn’t have to have been constructed at all.

If we were evolved, then why have humans stopped evolving.

Simple answer: We haven’t stopped evolving.

We haven’t stopped evolving.

...but some of us are evolving more than others…

Nor was the Earth created. It formed through a natural and well understood processes.

Who created that well understood process. And what do we evolve into next. How have we not stopped evolving.