leguru : Ironic that a pacifist philosophy has been adopted by the largest military force on the planet.

They’re all a Buddha of one, with automatic weapons.

Ever considered that angle?

hmm ... yup, rejected that 5th grade.

<SMACK!>

I usually don’t get involved in these discussions, and sit on the sides as others are more eloquent at stating arguments than I am. But we have:

Either He was a liar or lunatic or Lord.

Ah yes, it’s the Liar, Looney, or Lord argument. As Greta states, there are many other scenarios for Jesus, he could have been misquoted, misrepresented, misinterpreted, someone could have purposely misstated or misinterpreted what he said for their own political reasons, he might not even be real and just a creation by a religion to get people to waste their money and Sundays, he could of been a creation based off of other real life prophets, and the list goes on.

Then Greta states the following:

The essence of the argument is this: If you say my religion isn’t true, you’re insulting me. You’re calling the founder of my religion a loony or a liar. He’s the inspiration for my life, the foundation of my moral code, the core of my life’s meaning. Are you calling him a loony? Are you calling him a liar? So are you calling me crazy or deluded for following him? And what about all the other millions of people who believe that Jesus is lord—are you saying they’re all crazy or deluded? What a terrible thing to say! How can you say that?

How true!

You see what you’re doing here Nano Dude? You are dodging our questions and then expecting us to answer your. But worse, your questions are just bullshit emotional appeals.

I am done with Nano Dude until he answers some questions or at least makes an attempt to understand evolution instead of just saying how he loves us but evolution and atheists are evil.

What do all of you here think of Jesus Himself and His claims about Himself? Either He was a liar or lunatic or Lord.

Yes, we all know about C.S. Lewis’ “trilemma”.  Trouble is, these are not the only possibilities:  for instance, Jesus might also have:

- been misquoted
- been speaking metaphorically
- never existed

...and any number of other grades of truth shading into storytelling.

About that DrDino video:  why would anyone here want to watch it?  Don’t you get it?  There are educated people here, people who paid attention in high school, who actually know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics states.  DrDino only works on people who really want to believe that the Bible is true, and who have no idea how science works, and what real scientists say.

First of all, Bog Brother, if you would, I would really like to know why you left Christianity, and when you say you were “one of us” what do you mean exactly? Please clarify.

No.  If you want to know these things, do some work, I’ve posted the answers to these questions in other threads here, so you’ll need to do some legwork.  Otherwise, screw off.

Nano- if you’re just going to lie, really what is the point?

From his own writings we see that he abandoned Christianity if ever he believed it at all

He was a Christian, though from a non-conformist background.  In fact he was an acolyte of Paley- the proponent of the ‘Watchmaker’ argument.  It was his trip on the Beagle, and the inconsistences between the Bible and what he observed that made him doubt. You are either a liar, or have been lied to.

My son’s views are all his own. He’s looked at the OBSERVED FACTS, he’s looked at the bible, and though ‘these two don’t match, which is wrong?’ You obviously haven’t caught onto the fact that I wouldn’t put God into any model.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics
In a closed system, all things tend towards entropy

or variation thereof.

The 4 important words EVERY creationist leaves out are

IN A CLOSED SYSTEM

For order to arise from disorder enery must be put in. The Earth IS NOT a closed system.  The energy comes from the sun. The Solar System IS effectively a closed system, and eventually the Sun will die, and the Solar system will die with it.

If the Cretinist version was right- All things tend towards entropy, then nothing would grow, no matter how much food they are, no engines would work, despite being fuelled.  The energy to create life on Earth came from the Sun. We can prove the existence of the Sun. I’ve not seen God hanging around recently.

we have the original recorded words and the rest

No you don’t, you have copies of an oral tradition. Show me the originals. Show me the dictation of Jesus, or a Jesus, one of the many wandering around the Middle East at the time.

None of those horrible abuses can be defended as coming from the New Testament which Christians are to follow:

Yeah one minute God is saying go and commit genocide, next he’s all love and stuff. Except for the Laws which command stoning etc- Jesus supported those

I do not come to change one jot or tittle

.What you mean is the OT is ALL TRUE, apart from the bits you disagree with.

Once agian you have not given any facts. But at least you did make a statement or two- all completely wrong, but at least a ‘unfact’.

He said if you die without Him as your Savior, you will go to Hell forever.

You and 5 other religeons. Whose hell you gonna burn in- Sikhs, Hindus?

Nanodude, you obviously need to get off a topic in which you are clearly over your head.  Since you like nanotechnology, and you like fiction (such as the Bible) you might enjoy a fictional story about nonotechnology.  Get the November/December ‘07 issue of MIT Technology Review and read Steve Fever about a future where nanobits of a dead researcher are hijacking the whole human race to resurrect him.  It’s a very creepy story, quite improbable, and quite entertaining.  And it will give you something to do besides annoying the hell out of us for a while.

I’d also recommend a novel I read called (I believe) “Bloom”.  I don’t recall the author, but it was about a nanobot swarm that turned the earth into a gray goo, and the efforts by the survivors who had taken refuge inside Saturn’s moon Titan to find out what had happened and possibly reclaim the earth.  Good luck finding a copy though, it appears it’s out of print, though I found it to be an enjoyable read myself.

Actually all the Christians charities in the world can’t hold a candle to the secular governments that are essentially the sorts of community leaders that churches only wish they were.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

It’s a pretty powerful statement of secularity. The Red Cross is nice and all that, but it simply doesn’t hold a candle to the trillions of dollars in aid the secular (no matter what percentage of its constituents might be) government of the US hands out every few years (for reasons that often have very little to do with charity or morality, despite their overall effect.) That’s not even going into the enormous percentage of our overall budget that’s spent on the community here at home in the form of building infrastructure, protecting people’s civil rights by establishing completely secular courts, and mailing checks to all of the elderly people that Nano’s churches prey upon to collect their pound of silver to erect useless buildings that mostly stand empty all week long.

and mailing checks to all of the elderly people that Nano’s churches prey upon to collect their pound of silver to erect useless buildings that mostly stand empty all week long.

Aw c’mon now ya’ll.  Don’t be like that!  God needs those empty buildings to live in!  Where else is the Holy Ghost gonna go on a Tuesday between the hours of midnight and 6 pm before the old ladies show up for Bingo?

Right. Jesus needs a shelter to cover people like Kent Hovind’s tax fraud.

You said: “Yes, we all know about C.S. Lewis’ “trilemma”.  Trouble is, these are not the only possibilities:  for instance, Jesus might also have:

- been misquoted
- been speaking metaphorically
- never existed “

Nope, Nope, and Nope. All of these routes, these attempts, are closed off. That is the fundamental flaw with Greta the atheist’s responses. Go read The Case for the Real Jesus” by Lee Strobel, his latest book. He answers this stuff. The fact is, we have the original recorded words of Jesus. He was speaking plainly. Literally. Directly. And He existed. No honest historian would even imagine Him not existing. The worst they say is He was wrong.

Anyhow, all of this mishmash is going to come to an end one day, when He returns, and then it will be too late to make your choice, to choose which side you’re on. It doesn’t make any sense to say “I choose to lay down!” when you can’t stand up! What then everyone who denies Jesus as your Savior, here?

I read “Bloom” by Will McCarthy. Very well-written storyline. I disagree with his assumption that nanomechanisms can evolve. Accidents of that sort are not likely. Intentionally destructive programmable nano weapons are definitely a problem.

However, I believe in freedom in research and scientific development. Let the engineers build. Invent.

You said: “t’s a pretty powerful statement of secularity. The Red Cross is nice and all that, but it simply doesn’t hold a candle to the trillions of dollars in aid the secular (no matter what percentage of its constituents might be) government of the US hands out every few years (for reasons that often have very little to do with charity or morality, despite their overall effect.)”

The Christian charities help out far more people than any secular one. Besides, the Christian charities make eternal impacts for people’s souls.
“He was a Christian, though from a non-conformist background.  In fact he was an acolyte of Paley- the proponent of the ‘Watchmaker’ argument.  It was his trip on the Beagle, and the inconsistences between the Bible and what he observed that made him doubt. You are either a liar, or have been lied to.”

Whatever Darwin was, he was not a Christian. He made that clear.

I hope I’m wrong. I hope he truly believed at one p oint in his life, and if he did, then yes he would make it into heaven. Nonetheless, as far as we know, he was an enemy of the Gospel.

I bet the following really freaks you guys out, doesn’t it?

Most people think of Ghandi as this wonderful great man, and sure, he did do some good works and had some good causes. And while he was mistreated by some nominal Christians who should have loved him instead, sadly, in his recorded texts, he makes it clear he would not accept Jesus Christ as his Savior.

Meanwhile, certain men such as David Berkowitz (Son of Sam Killer), Jeffrey Dahmer (cannibal murderer), and some others supposedly believed in Jesus Christ as their Savior, and that means they go to Heaven.

You’re probably thinking “What a twisted view this fundie has! How can he say a good man like Ghandi would go to Hell while those guys would go to Heaven?” Because we are ALL evil, wicked, from birth. We are ALL spiritually dead, seperated from God, and have a bent towards sin and rebellion.

ALL have fallen short of the glory of God! ALL like sheep have gone astray!

The Standard is God Himself, Jesus Christ. There are only two ways to Heaven: If you want to try to get there by your works, you better be 100% perfect, and apart from Jesus I have not yet met such a person or heard of them. The real way, ofcourse, is to accept His free gift of eternal life by faith alone in Christ alone, then you are credited with His very own perfection and you are bonded to Him forever.

Love you because of Him

The fact is, we have the original recorded words of Jesus.

Since I assume you do not, in fact, mean a “recording” of Jesus’ words than we have what you believe are the transcribed words of Jesus.  The veracity of which is attested by the volume in which they are contained.

I can easily think of a dozen other possibilities besides those in Lewis’ ‘Trilemma’ and saying “nope” is not an argument, it is a claim. 

I bet the following really freaks you out: many of us have in fact read the bible, CS Lewis, Hal Lindsey, and maybe even some Christian philosophers you have not heard of.  In the end, it didn’t carry the day.

You’re not making any progress here - why not go to the hill region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and preach the gospel to them?  I’m sure they’re hungry for the gawssspell there.

I bet the following really freaks you guys out, doesn’t it?

No.

The Standard is God Himself, Jesus Christ. There are only two ways to Heaven: If you want to try to get there by your works, you better be 100% perfect, and apart from Jesus I have not yet met such a person or heard of them. The real way, ofcourse, is to accept His free gift of eternal life by faith alone in Christ alone, then you are credited with His very own perfection and you are bonded to Him forever.

Prove it.

Love you because of Him

You d’ont even know us. Your pseudo-love is as much of a delusion as your faith.

I wonder if he’ll go away if we all blaspheme the holy spook thus placing ourselves irrevocably and permanently beyond salvation?

“The best thing I ever did in the modern age was to make these materialists think I don’t exist!"-- Satan.

No natural process which resulted in information forming automatically in matter has ever been observed. Neither is this possible in the most spectacular or costly experiments.

No transition from one basic kind to another has ever been observed.

The frequently quoted transitional forms and “missing links” have never been found. All fossils represent complete, perfect organisms.

Face it. You cannot deliver the goods. Your claims are bankrupt.

From Dictionary.Com:

“ a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects”

“something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:”

“A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.”

These definitions describe you atheists perfectly. Surprise. You are religionists.

You have the religion of humanism and atheism.

Jesus is returning soon. Don’t wait until the world is dissolving all around you before you believe in Him.

How do you determine what is right and what is wrong? If you don’t believe in a universal standard of right and wrong, who are you to tell someone what is right and what is wrong? Who are you to accuse God of being evil if you don’t even believe in God or a universal standard of what is right and wrong, good and evil.

The very fact that you are raising a stink about what is right or wrong, good or evil, is your proving God exists! The very act of thinking, is proof God exists.

Atheists who spend time arguing that God does not exist....its like someone sitting on a branch at the end of a tree and declaring “Trees don’t exist! They are a crutch for weak-minded people!”

You derive your very ability to think from God! HE gave it to you!

I bet the following really freaks you guys out, doesn’t it?

It would indeed freak me out, if it were true.  But it’s not, so it doesn’t freak me out, any more than it freaks me out when Elmer Fudd shoots Bugs Bunny for the umpteenth time.

No natural process which resulted in information forming automatically in matter has ever been observed. Neither is this possible in the most spectacular or costly experiments.

I guess you really weren’t paying attention in school, were you, Nano Dude?  I don’t know about the rest of you, but we did this experiment in grade school, and it wasn’t costly at all.  I thought it was pretty spectacular, though.

Boil a pot of water.  Mix in as much sugar as will dissolve.  Hang a string in the pot and let cool.  Over a period of several days, the sugar in the supersaturated solution will crystallize out, and you’ll have a string of rock candy.  What has happened here? A natural process which resulted in information forming automatically in matter has been observed. A crystal has more information than the solution from which it came, so information formed.  It proceeded automatically.  And if you were paying attention, it was observed.  Information forms all the time, in open systems.  All it takes is energy, in this case in the form of heat.

The frequently quoted transitional forms and “missing links” have never been found. All fossils represent complete, perfect organisms.

This is confirmation, as if we needed any, that you don’t know your ass from your elbow about evolution.  What would constitute a “missing link” for you?  Something with a human top and a chimp bottom?  If you want to debate evolution, you have to at least have a basic understanding of what evolution means, which you don’t.  If you’re serious about convincing us, you will have to do some research.  I’ve done quite a lot on the Bible, as have most of us here: I’ve read the whole thing a couple of times through, and a lot of secondary literature as well.  So it’s time to get your butt in gear: since you mention transitional forms, you could start here.

Let us know what you think after you bone up a bit.  If you don’t, and merely continue spouting your ignorance, you will continue to annoy us, and after a while you will go off in a huff when we stop paying attention.  So it’s up to you.

Julian - Even though I’ve done it before here, it’s worth a try.  I’ll start.

The Goddamn, Virgin Mary Fucking, Holy Spirit is a a pile of pig shit that has been passed through the rancid, rotting, infected intestine of a 3 day dead corpse of a Jewish Carpenter/Male Prostitute who claimed to have been descended from a cosmic megalomaniacal psychopathic monster for the express written intent of making us all mind slaves to his monstrous father. 

Ramen.

I’d like to do it too, but after yours mine is going to sound too tame.

Wish I was born creative instead of good-looking.....Damn you Holy Spirit you lying deceiving son of Satan.

I’m afraid mine won’t be as creative, but here goes: There is no god, and by extension, no holy spirit (or any other kind).

Nanodude, we’ve been pretty patient but you are getting even more annoying than I predicted you would be.  This is the point where people start ignoring you.  I’ll go first.

Don’t run him off yet DOF! I’m still trying to figure out what bible he’s been reading. 

Really ND, it’s been fun lurking and watching you try to ‘convert the heathens’ but it’s getting old. I was going to leave you with a homework assignment but thought better of it, you’d never do it anyway. I would like to thank you for being an interesting diversion from my normal fundie diet. It’s sad that I have to come here to get preached at without the preacher resorting to vulgarities or threats of a good burning-at-the-stake! 

I would like to thank you for being an interesting diversion from my normal fundie diet.

You find him significantly different from the regular fundies we get here? Sure he doesn’t use vulgarities but in his own way he’s gloating over the fact that he thinks that his god is going to fuck us.

It’s sad that I have to come here to get preached at without the preacher resorting to vulgarities or threats of a good burning-at-the-stake! 

Instead he’s resorting to threats of a good burning-in-hell-for-all-eternity.
I admire the patience of you guys who tried reasoning with him. Personally I think it’s like trying to teach Quantum Mechanics to a goat.

You find him significantly different from the regular fundies we get here?

No, I find him different from the fundies I get face-to-face.

Instead he’s resorting to threats of a good burning-in-hell-for-all-eternity.

Straight from the play-book. Nice to know in this crazy world that some things can be relied upon. 

I admire the patience of you guys who tried reasoning with him. Personally I think it’s like trying to teach Quantum Mechanics to a goat.

I was waiting for a reason to come back and comment. LOL! My thoughts exactly.

No, I find him different from the fundies I get face-to-face.

My mistake. I misunderstood what you said as I’ve never encountered a fundie offline.

Julian, you’re not missing much. Just imagine NanoDude as kinda southern twangy and making such comments as ‘You godless heretic’ or ‘You poor deluded heathen’. Add in some choice non-blasphemous vulgarities as I have fun at the expense of the whole group and viola’!

Of course I’m dealing with Southern and Missionary Baptists so the mileage you get from other fundies may vary.

Double dipping here but Julian and BB, there’s no need to blaspheme the holy spook. 1 John 2:22 says it all:

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

See? we’re all the anti-christ and therefore already condemned. And I think we all know what happens to the anti-christ, right?