I’m with the others: I would normally let Bahamat feed the trolls in his ever so patient way, but this one is too rich for me to pass up:

Nano Dude: There are no accidents. God set up this appointment, He directed me to your webpage....

... for a well deserved spanking.  We’ll happily oblige if you continue to bend over.

<SMACK!>

You’ve been a bad troll. 

<SMACK!>

Oh, you like that?  Here’s some more, you nasty, bad, naughty troll.

<SMACK!>

Now quit being a baby and accept that your logic thingy is busted.

God set up this appointment, He directed me to your webpage.

Actually it was the Flying Spagetti Monster. He in his unbounded Noodleness made sure you came here to learn your beliefs do not fit with observable fact. 

Ramen

The claims of TalkOrigins.com have been shown to be false. I also debate Muslims, for your information, and so far no Muslim has been able to defeat me in an honest rational discussion. I can show scores upon scores of real contradictions in the Quaran, both external and internal, whereas the claims people make about Bible contradictions evaporate once you really examine them in detail and in context. A good example: Muhammed told Muslims (recorded in the Bukhari Hadiths which are accepted by most every Muslim) to drink camel urine for health. Urine is a waste product. Muhammed cannot be from God. That is one of countless others.

By the way, I propose that you atheists and others stand with me against the wicked evil of Islam. Muhammed told Muslims that there are three choices for Nonbelievers, atheist and Christian Jew and other: 1 Submit and convert to Islam. 2 Live as a humiliated slave paying religious taxes, 3 Die.

While I am convinced you’re wrong about evolution, I would never ever force you to believe as I do. I respect your freedom to believe as you choose. Muslims on the other hand would imprison and/or kill you and me both if they are consistently following the teachings and commands of Muhammed and their Islam.

I love you people.

Time and Chance do not produce upward complexity and genetic information guys. Come on.

By the way, I have a question for you, unrelated to this thread. As you can tell by my name, I like nanotechnology/molecular engineering. Anyone else here also interested in this cool field?

Anyone else here also interested in this cool field?

Yes, but we believe it’s a construct of Man, not God.

Yep, he responded just as DOF predicted he would. I’m beginning to think that someone has been cloning Creationist Fundies or something.

The claims of TalkOrigins.com have been shown to be false.

Time to throw in the towel, fellow minions of Satan- we’ve been pwned.  Nano Dude has pierced our shabby defences.  Glory Jee to Beezuz!

OK, I’ll bite once NanoDude.

I also debate Muslims, for your information, and so far no Muslim has been able to defeat me in an honest rational discussion.

If you win the debate by disproving points in the Koran, I doubt too many atheists would argue with you.

By the way, I propose that you atheists and others stand with me against the wicked evil of Islam.

You fundies are so cute in your self-centered egotism, thinking that the whole world is aligned against you.  Just because we are both against you, hardly means we are working together.  As an atheist, I find Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Paganism, really all religions to be of equal merit; I don’t believe in any of them, and there is no good reason to.

I love you people.

Please keep that kind of “love” to yourself.  I personally love how you and your holy book take such a great word, and twist it to mean something else. God doesn’t show anyone love by “allowing” them to go to hell.  Think about it.  If God created everything, including the rule that you have to worship his son or go to hell, then God is not like a parent punishing a naughty child.  God is a supreme dictator who punishes dissidents to not only be tortured for the rest of their lives, he uses advance medical technology to extend their lives for all eternity.  Your God doesn’t love anyone, if he exists and takes the form of that thing in the Bible, he is the most foul, wretched and evil being to ever exist.  If I die and find myself in front of him, and have to account for my “wicked” life, and he asks if I worshiped Jesus, and it’s clear that I’m going to hell, I’ll spit in his eye and tell him to fuck himself before I’d ever grovel and beg at the feet of such a monster.

However, before you mark me as a Satanist (which I have to add, I am not - I don’t believe in Satan anymore than Jesus or Allah or Krishna or Zeus for that matter) realize that I said “if” only because nobody can be 100% sure.  However, one can be 100% assured that the chances of something are so slender that they are not real.  Like religion for example.

Anyway, “NanoDude”?  What, is that ironic or something?  Religion gives us burning heretics and burning books, not electron microscopes and robotics.

I also debate Muslims, for your information, and so far no Muslim has been able to defeat me in an honest rational discussion.

So far, you haven’t tried debating us.  For example:

Time and Chance do not produce upward complexity and genetic information guys. Come on.

That is a claim, not an argument.  For claims you need supporting information.  Or this:

The claims of TalkOrigins.com have been shown to be false.

Since you clearly do not know a claim from an argument, it’s difficult to take you seriously.  Who showed, when, and how?  Or did a bunch of fundies get together and say “Nuh-UH!!!” ?

I love you people.

You don’t even know us.  Do some more reading around the site for a while, and resist the urge to type in that little text box at the bottom of the posts.

Let me answer some of your questions if I can. You ask me to show exactly how the 2nd Law disproves evolution. Evolution (or my favorite term, evilution!) *requires* there to be an upward growing level of intricate genetic complexity, going from molecules to man (not explaining how the rules of chemical and nuclear bonding even came into existence other than “Duh, the Big Bang Did it!), but in reality we see the opposite: We see conservative maintenance and growth processes working exactly as we would and should expect: Within the “program” of a Designer, Creator, God.

I am not accusing you all of worshipping Satan in name, no. However, this is what it comes down to: Either you are with God or against Him. Jesus Himself said this. He said those who are not with Him are against Him. Either you are saved or you are not. If you are currently not saved (and please do get saved my friends) you are His creation and subject to Him but you are not in His family, not His child. Jesus said through John that to them who believed on Him He gave the right to be called children of God. You are still of tremendous value to God, He loves you and He died for you. God made us to serve and enjoy Him forever but we choose to reject Him. Look at the Bible as God’s love letter to you, and realize the Creator knows what’s best for the creation. Do you pour soda on your computer motherboard? No way. Thou shalt not pour soda on thy motherboard =) Same with God and His commands.

Regarding the Muslim fundamentalists, please don’t put all fundamentalists in the same boat. Christian and Jewish fundamentalists are not going around demanding the mass murder and attack of non members of their beliefs, but Muslims are. The media constantly has attacked Christian beliefs and Jesus Himself but do you see Christians mass rioting and murdering and burning? No. But look what the Muslims did when those European cartoonists made images of Muhammed. That speaks for itself guys.

Have you read the writings of CS Lewis, such as his “The Case for Christianity”, or the work by Lee Strobel “The Case for Christ” and the work by Josh McDowell “Evidence That Demands A Verdict”? Might I suggest that to you?

By the way, how do you deal with the fact that the founding fathers of many of the main branches of science, such as thermodynamics, electrodynamics, biology, etc, were Christians and creationists? Even Isaac Newton himself while more of a Unitarian, held to Biblical creation and loved Bible prophecy. Michael Faraday the great father of electrodynamics was a commited Christian and a creationist; Maxwell, too. Lord Kelvin who gave so much to thermodynamics study was a Christian and attacked the lies of Darwinism, and so on and so forth. The great education institutions such as Yale, Harvard, Princeton, etc were founded by Christians with a Christian charter. What do you guys say to this fact?

Regardiny my nick name and like of nanotechnology and robotics, actually yes: Christians also are responsible for these fields because of the work done by the above stated people. Even today there are countless Christians in the science world who have degrees, patents, etc. I have a bro in Christ who holds several patents and is a world-class polymers engineer. Please don’t read the word “Christian” and associate it with “Backwards Ignoramus”.

So what are some of your beliefs regarding spiritual things and God etc?

Do you believe the conciousness survives physical death, and if not, why? If yes, what do you believe happens to our conciousness?

What are your beliefs on morality? I know there are many, many “good” decent moral atheists and others who dont believe in God, and I credit them for having good solid moral values etc. But, what is their basis for these moral values? There are Christians and religionists who have shown horrible moral values in comparison (even though there is a whole history of Christian charity, missions, ending slavery, feeding starving people etc, thats another topic), but, they have a basis for good moral values.

Example: Jim the atheist down the road may be a great neighbor, feed the hungry, and be good to his family...and I commend him for that..but what is his basis for these values? Why should he not be like George the other atheist who says “There is no evil, no good. Eating babies for pleasure is just as fine as feeding hungry babies. There is no universal standard of morals. I will do whatever pleases me!” Do you see my point guys?

Thank you for welcoming me here and for the discussion.

Example: Jim the atheist down the road may be a great neighbor, feed the hungry, and be good to his family...and I commend him for that..but what is his basis for these values? Why should he not be like George the other atheist who says “There is no evil, no good. Eating babies for pleasure is just as fine as feeding hungry babies. There is no universal standard of morals. I will do whatever pleases me!” Do you see my point guys?

Oh yes.  Your point is you are a total asshat.  With one paragraph you ask us not to see you as a “Backwards Ignoramus” and then you proceed to talk in a most condescending manner to us, expecting that nobody here has ever heard your bullshit, because you stumbled upon this forum while doing a Google search for Kent Hovind.  Please, I used to be one of you, and I am not impressed with your crap. 

Tell me this: is your precious holy book and its morality rules all that keep you from committing evil things such as rape, torture and murder?  Oh, what’s that?  You happen to have already known that these things were wrong?  Wow, congratulations, you happened to have formed a moral code of your own.  Great that they happen to coincide with what that book of your’s tells you.  I’m happy for ya.

What are my beliefs on spirituality?  Why, it’s all 100% pure bullshit.  There is no life after death, there are no ghosts (holy or otherwise), there is no heaven or hell.  You sit there and tell us that you love us and that your god loves us, but then with the same breath tell us that we are going to burn for all eternity?  I don’t know about you, but to me that sounds more like a threat of violence. 

And NO, it is not the same as saying “If you jump off a mountain, you’ll die!” You know why?  Because I can go to a fucking mountain.  I can jump off of it.  And yes I will die.  You cannot go to hell, or heaven for that matter.  These are imaginary places, made up to make people feel better about their shitty lives.

I also debate Muslims, for your information, and so far no Muslim has been able to defeat me in an honest rational discussion.

Has anyone else seen Islamo-christian fundies debating each other? It looks vaguely masturbatory.

He’s following the script, isn’t he?

Nanodude, the cartoon stereotype of an atheist that resides in your head is straight out of a Jack Chick tract.  You’re talking about real people with actual lives and differences between them.  The first place you go wrong is trying to guess what someone else’s motives might be.

And yes, there are Christian fundies calling for the death of unbelievers.  For the most part they use cruise missiles instead of suicide bombers, but still…

If your religion is all that keeps you from murdering innocent people then by all means, keep on believing.

Nano Dude: sorry, but you are out of your league here.  You obviously do not know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics states: your “explanation” didn’t make any mention of entropy, equilibrium, or isolated systems.  Most of us here have already read the Bible, and found it wanting: it’s full of fallacies, self-contradictions, myths, and God-inspired baby killing (see 1 Samuel 15).  In fact, it’s exactly what you would expect superstitious pre-scientific tribal peoples to write, complete with charming creation stories, talking animals, and four-legged insects.

Now if you’ll pardon me, I have to go eat some babies for pleasure.  Go play somewhere else.

Obviously Christians are only Christians because church is the only thing that prevents them from rape and murder, while we, the enlightened atheists, have somehow figured out how prevent these awful urges that Christians must succumb to without the aid of a book. Christians are pussies.

Zilch got to the 2nd Law rebuttle before I did, so- What Zilch said.

Inference from “Newton et al were Christians”. is “If a man discovers a great universal Law, his faith must be true.”

The Ancient Greeks dicovered many truths of physics. They also first worked out the circumference of the Earth. Does this mean Zeus exists?  When people stopped believing in him did the principle of displacement stop working?  Did the Earth change size and shape, OR were their discoveries independent of their faith.

The model of the atom was first proposed by the MUSLIMS in about the 10th Century. In the 18th Century European (ie Christian) physicists favoured the ‘Plum Pudding model’. The Muslims were right, the Christians wrong. Did this mean Islam was ‘more correct’?

The claims of TalkOrigins.com have been shown to be false.

With EXACTLY the same level of proof that you offer I can honestly claim

The claims of The Bible have been shown to be false.

Where are the facts that support your assertion?

You have not given one fact, piece of evidence etc etc.

Morals. Less Athiests per 1,000 end up in jail than Christians. Les has a thread about it somewhere. Where do my morals come from? Not a genocidal, infanticidal mass murdering ethnic cleansing schizophrenic. The easiest test is “Will it lead to anyone getting hurt, and would I be upset if it happened to my children or my loved ones”.

You have provided no evidence, reference or back up for any of your claims.  If you say “Faith- Godidit” then yes we can not disprove it, for all that will happen with every rebuttle is the old Creationist mantra “God made it look that way”

BUT

You have made assertions about evolution which you have failed to back up. This is OUR Home Ground. Here you play National League, not American League- you don’t get your DH (and me a Brit- who’d have thunk it!).  You want to say the such and such Law disproves X, Y and Z you really have to show how.

But You won’t. We’ve seen every thing you’ve said before, and not one Fundie actually answers our questions, they just blather on. Break the mould, give us a fact.  If you can give ONE fact that can not be reconciled with evolution then you too can be world famous. And possible very rich.

Again, I stress that I tell you the truth because I care about you, I honestly love you as fellow human beings, we are all one blood in that sense. If I see someone driving down the road in a car about to drive off a cliff with burning fire at the end, do you not agree I have a responsibility if I care about them to warn them, whether they believe it or not?

Furthermore, all of the so called knowledge the Muslims are claimed to have discovered in reality came from people, Jews Christians, Greeks, Romans, etc, before them. Islam itself is counter to science, whereas the Bible is pro science in all areas of science it touches on.

Compare the hygience of the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures of the Jews under Moses with the practices common in pagan societies. The meticulous cleanliness laws in there are amazing and doctors have made commentaries about it. The requirement to seperate people with communicable diseases, and the stuff about washing hands in running water, rather than still water, and much more are centuries ahead of their time. Unfortunately during the period we call the Dark Ages, the European Catholic (organized paganism) took over for the most part, and plunged the world into a Dark Age, while abusing the name of Jesus for their murders and conquest.

Again, the fact is this. Evolution cannot account for complex specified information such as that which we find within DNA and cells and the rest. Read the works of guys like Michael Denton and Michael Behe and others. They may not necessarilly be born again Christian fundamentalists like I am ( and yes I gladly and thankfully use the title Fundamentalist Christian for myself), but, their points are very excellent on these matters.

The fact that we know what we OUGHT to do, even if we don’t always do it, shows evidence of God and His giving us a conscience.

And again, where is your basis for moral values, any atheists here? You have failed to show me this.

Lets talk a little bit about the tremendous charity work Christians have done. Where are the big atheist charities? Christian charities have historically and today cared for countless people, given them food, medicine, education, clothing, shelter, gifts, and much more. The Anti Slavery Abolitionist movement was predominated by Christians, such as William Wilburforce, and Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian. You also seem to downplay the facts I brought up about the greats such as Faraday, Maxwell, Kelvin, etc being Christians. Why is this, or are you not downplaying their roles?

If you really love science like I do (And I am surrounded by stacks of physics, science, engineering, etc books!) and like these guys did, why not become a Christian, get saved, and you will get to spend eternity learning wondrous mysteries of science like never before. Come on guys

To reject God, to deny Christ, is like saying “I am going to deny this brick wall! I dont believe it exists” and getting into a car and driving full speed ahead against a solid brick wall. All it does is lead to your ruin :( Jesus loves you and died for you. And Bog Brother, when you say you used to “be one of us”, what do you mean exactly? Are you saying you were a born again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and then you turned from the faith? Or were you raised in a Christian household and went to church, and then you decided to leave Christianity, or what?

Let me also ask you all this: Why do you think I come here if I don’t care about you? Don’t you think I could go and post on a Christian forum and leave you to your atheist ways? I have a responsibility to be here as long as I can and share this with you.

The old saying “Christians are weak people who need a crutch” is partly true: We admit we need The Crutch of all crutches! And instead of just being a crutch, HE heals us forever. It is the unbeliever who does not realize their need for Him.

Jesus said “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son” and “Whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.” Do you want to believe in Him? Come to Him.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait....wait..."Denying Christ is like denying a brick wall”...wait…

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, that is just too precious.  You don’t understand the difference between an imaginary friend and a brick wall.  Oh, I haven’t laughed that hard since I read that Josh McDowell book.

Seriously though, do you actually read what others are posting here Dude, or do you just wash/rinse/repeat?

Double dipping here, but has anyone else caught the continued use of “family” by our latest fundy troll?  If I didn’t know better, I’d say Konstantin read a book and picked up a dictionary, and changed his name to NanoDude.

Wash.

Rinse.

Repeat.

I love you all.

Burn in hell, atheist swine.

Wash ...

ND says…

Let me answer some of your questions if I can.

And then goes on to show that he can’t. The following has to be the most pathetic attempt at an explanation of how the 2nd Law supposedly disproves evolution I have ever seen:

You ask me to show exactly how the 2nd Law disproves evolution. Evolution (or my favorite term, evilution!) *requires* there to be an upward growing level of intricate genetic complexity, going from molecules to man (not explaining how the rules of chemical and nuclear bonding even came into existence other than “Duh, the Big Bang Did it!), but in reality we see the opposite: We see conservative maintenance and growth processes working exactly as we would and should expect: Within the “program” of a Designer, Creator, God.

It’s obvious he doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about and clearly doesn’t understand any of the scientific theories he’s claiming support his argument let alone not understanding what the Theory of Evolution actually says.

It’d be a waste of time to bother with the rest of either of his comments.

It is as DOF said, he’s reading from the script.  He knows a few fancy words that he can bandy about to try and make himself sound smart.  He’s trying desperately to do the Dale Carnegie thing and get some common ground between us evil atheists and himself, but it’s not working because he doesn’t actually understand those fancy words.  I cannot really understand how someone cannot see the difference between Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis, and Evolution, but it’s a classic fundy error, and he’s definitely following that model.

NanoDude- has anything we’ve said actually penetrated? We answer your points, BUT YOU DON’T EVEN MOVE ON TO NEW ONES, just repeat.

Interesting how you concentrate on Islam, praising other cultures, with different, pantheistic, gods- in contradiction to your monotheism. This is despite Islam being an Abrahamic religeon, with many similarities to Judaism, as both are survival guides for desert nomads. 1000 years ago Islam was so far ahead of Christian Europe in thinking it was out of sight.

Behe made himself look a right tit at the Dover hearings, having to admit all sorts of mistakes.

European Catholic (organized paganism)

But this is the one true Christian Church which traces its leaders back to Peter. Ergo you are a heritic, who will burn in hell. What give legitmacy to ‘x’ church over ‘y’ sect?

The Anti Slavery Abolitionist movement was predominated by Christians, such as William Wilburforce

The West was predominantly Christian at the time, so any one doing good would have been Christian. Atheism was much less common- in fact landowners sacked people for not going to church, or being the wrong kind of Christian.  And yes, I WILL AGREE with you, Wilburforce’s stance was rooted in his faith.

Now lets look at all those people whose hate has been rooted in their Christian Faith. The Crusades, The Inquisition, Religeous Wars for half a millenium, Witch Burnings, Catholic burnings, Protestant Burnings, the genocide of the native Americans, the slave trade (hold on, isn’t that Christian vs Christian?) and of course our good old friend Adolf, a catholic, who did what he did to revenge Jesus for the Cruxifiction.

Let us also look at the current US administration. Proud to be Christian. Also proud to move in completely the opposite direction to Wiburforce, with attacks on the least well of in society, while rewarding the richest. The rich actually protested against one GW tax cut for them, on the basis it would affect the poor!

Faraday, Newton et al? Exactly how did Christianity cause their discoveries. Newton was also an alchemist, who believed you could transmute base metals into gold.  Einstein was a Jew, one of the all time acknowledged geniuses was a member of a religion that denies Jesus as Messiah. I wait with baited breath for a good CHRISTIAN scientist to show E=MC^3.

And, (wait for it) DARWIN WAS A CHRISTIAN. He was so upset at the implications of his work he with held publication.  The captain of the Beagle actually committed suicide because of his part in helping ‘Descent of Man’ to happen.

You imply “good at science” = “God is real”. You also praise the Greeks. Shouldn’t we start sacrificing to Zeus on the same basis?

And still NOT ONE SCIENTIFIC FACT.  I make it the middle of the 4th, and you are 0 for 12.

Fuck fuck fuck.  I can’t believe I took HALF AN HOUR at 1.30 in the morning to type a reply the fundie isn’t going to bother reading properly.  I’ve just seen my 11 year old’s RE homework on “What I believe”.  He recognises the Bible was the work of a nomadic culture, and science has moved on, and has settled on the “God did the Big Bang, and ‘science’ did the rest” approach, which still makes him more sophisticated than NanoBot.

Last Hussar: It isn’t important that the fundie isn’t going to bother reading your reply properly. The peanut gallery enjoys reading the reparté between fundies and enlightened ones. And just a note to Bog Brother, Buddhism does not require a belief in a higher being. The most prevalent form is a humanistic philosophy that encourages you to “be the best you can be,” kind of like the US Army. Ironic that a pacifist philosophy has been adopted by the largest military force on the planet. 

Yes I do read your responses, and everything here is typed up word by word, no pasting.

First of all, Bog Brother, if you would, I would really like to know why you left Christianity, and when you say you were “one of us” what do you mean exactly? Please clarify.

Hey if any of you are interested I just finished watching a great video here: http://drdino.com/downloads.php

Totally shows how the atheistic evolutionist claims about dinosaurs are ridiculous.

To answer the statement regarding “Christian atrocities” the reply is direct and to the point: None of those horrible abuses can be defended as coming from the New Testament which Christians are to follow: Jesus nor His apostles told Christians to murder non Christians and to abuse fellow Christians. Infact we are told to love our enemies and love each other. So those folks were going directly against the very grain of Biblical Christianity.

The Roman Catholic System, while it contains some who are real Christians, is predominantly an organized form of ancient Babylonian paganism, this has been heavilly researched, you can read material in such books as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop.

No, I am not that Konstantin person, but, in Christ all born again Christians are connected, yes.

Bog Brother you said” I cannot really understand how someone cannot see the difference between Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis, and Evolution, but it’s a classic fundy error, and he’s definitely following that model.”

Ofcourse I see the difference between them. But the problem is this, there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim that natural selection and mutation lead to the creation of new kinds of creatures. These processes are not creative. Abiogenesis is simply Spontaneous Generation, shown to be false by Louis Pasteur and others long ago.

Last Hussar you said: “And, (wait for it) DARWIN WAS A CHRISTIAN. He was so upset at the implications of his work he with held publication.  The captain of the Beagle actually committed suicide because of his part in helping ‘Descent of Man’ to happen.”

Actually, no. The claims that Charles Darwin was a Christian have been shown to be mistaken. From his own writings we see that he abandoned Christianity if ever he believed it at all (though I hold to the Biblical truth of Eternal Security/Once Saved, Always Saved, so if someone truly believed even once, and became an apostate for the rest of their life, they will make Heaven, but face loss of eternal rewards, loss of joy, etc, but thats another discussion for another time); I am not saying Darwin didn’t think of the repercussions of releasing his falsehood, though. Darwin’s Finches are simply variations of another form of bird, that’s all. Nothing revolutionary.

Last Hussar then you said: “I’ve just seen my 11 year old’s RE homework on “What I believe”.  He recognises the Bible was the work of a nomadic culture, and science has moved on, and has settled on the “God did the Big Bang, and ‘science’ did the rest” approach”

Oh man that is so sad =( So not only do you reject the truth of the Word of God, but, you have your child rejecting the Word of God, now, too? What are you going to say to Jesus when you have to stand before Him and give account of yourself ?

I have waited to ask this question, now I will ask it. I am curious: What do all of you here think of Jesus Himself and His claims about Himself? Either He was a liar or lunatic or Lord. (Dont try the “The Bible was changed” route, we have the original recorded words and the rest, we have more copies of the NT than there are of the works of people like Plato and Caesar) What do you do with Him? Jesus was convinced that He is indeed the Eternal Son of God/God the Son, and the only Savior. He said if you die without Him as your Savior, you will go to Hell forever.

Think about this, too: If you’re right, we all go into eternal blackness, void, end of story. End of conciousness. If I’m right, and I know I am, then you will go to eternal concious punishment. Ever considered that angle?