I stopped having these conversations, well, when I stopped dropping acid and smoking pot.

eddies dancing from wave to wavetop in the Zogtrix

I remember that night-club. Do you have Eddie’s phone number, zilch? Haven’t spoken to him in ages…

Which Eddie do you mean, Tish?  Maybe M’eddieator has it, or is it…

MRK421 said:

She had the last laugh though - She was angered by my joke and informed me that she was originally from Orion and was inhabiting the body of someone who had grown tired of the earth. It was a very nice body so I didn’t argue.

So did you apologize for you insensitivity and offer to buy her a drink? Seems like the decent thing to do.

This is the fuck I am talking about: The outcome of a project weighing dying patients in their bed pre and immediately post the point of death, in every case concluding with a weight loss of 21 grams (no matter patient size). Search the internet for more info. Btw what the fuck is your problem?

snicker.

hehehe.

BWAHAHAHA..

This is a joke, right? Where’s the camera?

Are you one of those fucked up fucks who don’t believe in souls?

Yes, in fact, I AM one of those fucked up fucks. Proudly so.

I also don’t believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, God, Superman, Thetans, Evil Galactic Overlords or Honest Politicians.

And I’m beginning to doubt your existence......

MacDougall’s ‘21 gram soul’

MacDougall’s work was written up in The New York Times, which also covered his hope, some years later, to take a photo of the soul using X-rays. His work is viewed with palpable embarrassment now. “It’s simply not taken seriously,” says Stern.

But auras, now those are totally real.  I know this chick whose got this special crystal, and if she looks through it at the right angle, she can totally see your aura.  I know it works, ‘cause she did it to me, and said that my aura revealed that I was noble, courageous, sensitive, and totally hot.

I know it works, ‘cause she did it to me, and said that my aura revealed that I was noble, courageous, sensitive, and totally hot.

Grope the pope, dude! It doesn’t take a crystal to see THAT about you.

Yes, in fact, I AM one of those fucked up fucks. Proudly so.

KPG, what a great line for a quote-mine…

Grope the pope, dude! It doesn’t take a crystal to see THAT about you.

I agree, Brock, but I think I’ll buy a couple of crystals for certain friends of mine...

Yes, in fact, I AM one of those fucked up fucks. Proudly so.

Proud of considering yourself a robot? Well, congratulations. Let’s commercialize.

Bet you also strongly believe that at first there was nothing (everything has to start from scratch, right?). Then, out of nowhere, came a cloud which finally exploded. And out of that, eventually, came some hundreds of thousands of galaxies. With stars, planets, comets, biodiversity and all that. Quite accidentally, everything - from the extent of Universe to the single atom - would be co-ordinated and fine tuned, thru principles of ecology, geology, meteorology, astronomy, anatomy, electricity, magnetism, deniability and scepticism. And then came Santa.

And I’m beginning to doubt your existence......

I’m not for real. I’m just a voice inside your head telling you to wake up.

Proud of considering yourself a robot? Well, congratulations.

I won’t presume to answer for KPG, but as far as I’m concerned, robots can be pretty wonderful- look at a gazelle, or the Dalai Lama.  Sure, they and we are meat robots, not metal robots, but inventing a supernatural “soul” doesn’t explain anything and doesn’t make us more wonderful.

As far as cosmology goes- physicists are now convinced that there’s no problem with the universe coming from nothing, but that’s beside the point.  The problem is, as you say, to explain order.  But postulating a God or a Zog or whatever, who set the whole thing going, has no explanatory power, because then you have to explain how God, who would have to have even more order than the universe, was created from nothing.

Theologians have all kinds of answers for the creation of God- the “Uncaused Cause” is a favorite- but it’s all just causistry.  There is no logical demonstration of the existence- or the nonexistence- of Santa or God.

And claiming the universe is “co-ordinated and fine tuned” is unmotivated.  Sure, the universe we live in, and the planet we live on, seem eminently suitable to us.  This is the “anthropic principle”, which sees all circumstances as ordered to suit us.  But this is a tautology- we wouldn’t be here if conditions weren’t such as to make life, and humans, possible, here and now.  Among the untold millions of planets with different environments, Earth had all the right stuff, and here we are.  No need to invent a Designer- the design of life comes from the bottom up, not the top down.

Thanks Zilch, you saved me from having to type all of that so I could sit back and just giggle at Mediator. I love it when folks claim the soul weighs 21 grams. Oh, and your fingernails continue to grow for a short while after you die, right? Hee!

Though I will point out that the current Big Bang theory doesn’t say the universe came from nothing. Rather it says that everything in the universe was, at one point in time, all energy compressed into a really ridiculously tiny point called a singularity. If one accepts that energy cannot be destroyed, but can change form, then the logical conclusion is that the energy from which the universe began has always existed. So to say the universe “came from nothing” is not technically correct.

Of course, you already knew that Zilch. I was just pointing it out for *snicker* Mediator’s benefit.

Hehe, Les, I don’t think that Mediator let’s facts get in the way of his pet theories.

a supernatural “soul� doesn’t explain anything and doesn’t make us more wonderful

You are wrong. Pinpointing our wonderful self is THE exact difference this soul does. Live to your fullest potential, don’t give in, never worry or care what anybody would say or says whatever you do, and I bet you’ll see it some day.

And thanks for the update on Dalai Lama. Didn’t know that.

But postulating a God or a Zog or whatever, who set the whole thing going, has no explanatory power, because then you have to explain how God, who would have to have even more order than the universe, was created from nothing.

Shareable proof? Wouldn’t that be the scientists worrying about such? But why they didn’t rather choose to share their Big Bang theory with Steven Spielberg, over publishing it as the frantic token of their own shortcoming that it is, beats me. Well, why wonder - the theory is probably too implausible to mr. Spielberg anyway. Wonder when they attempt to explain the basics of the fourth and fifth dimension of existence? “Just knowing” is a beautiful thing, and all the proof that I ever need.

No need to invent a Designer

No need to invent. Unless one is a conservative “christian by the book” taught to be so. No need following some official book of some religion. All you need to do, is to feel, and act accordingly. Peaking ones sensitivity is that easy. But everyone walks their own walk, some choose to spend their entire life in self-abuse. Not me.

Though I will point out that the current Big Bang theory doesn’t say the universe came from nothing. Rather it says that everything in the universe was, at one point in time, all energy compressed into a really ridiculously tiny point called a singularity. If one accepts that energy cannot be destroyed, but can change form, then the logical conclusion is that the energy from which the universe began has always existed. So to say the universe “came from nothing� is not technically correct.

Hee-hee… science was unable to start from scratch, so they allowed themselves a head start. Neat, Les. Very neat. I find it equally hysterical every time disciples-of-science like you share their waterproof theory. “In the beginning, there was a tiny winy spot of tremendously compressed energy. Which came from a fully expanded Universe. Which came from a spot..........”.

Hehe, Les, I don’t think that Mediator let’s facts get in the way of his pet theories.

Man you are tough. I bet you make flies (YOUR pets?) tremble. May I worship you? Sorry if any of the stuff that I just wrote made you sick. Thought you were man enough to take it. My bad.

Man you are tough. I bet you make flies (YOUR pets?) tremble. May I worship you? Sorry if any of the stuff that I just wrote made you sick. Thought you were man enough to take it. My bad.

Not quite sure what you meant there.  No, no flies for pets just: a caecilian, an African lungfish, softshell turtle, assorted dogs, chickens, ducks, and guinea fowl, 3 parrots, a tarantula and two ancient ferrets (my wife’s along with the crappy poultry).
You can surely worship me if you like.  My preferred form of worship is tithing- preferably 100% of whatever you make.
No, nothing you said made me sick- other than laughing so hard that I got a stomach ache.
Take what?

Mediator said:
“Just knowing” is a beautiful thing, and all the proof that I ever need.

...thus summing up in one beautifully economical sentence the very essence of credulity.  Sir, I am in awe of your mastery of the language.

Is it just me or is Mediator’s comments becoming more nonsensical with each iteration?

No theory is waterproof. All are vulnerable should new evidence or a better theory come along. Science doesn’t claim to know anything with 100% certainty, though some theories seem to hold up pretty damn well.

I just ran across a splendid fisking of the Astrologer’s discomfiture on Jame’s Randi’s site. 

Here’s a free sample:

...of course, since one of astrology’s biggest claims is of being a predictor of the future, why wasn’t she able to see the impact coming? After all, once the probe had been launched successfully, scientists had a pretty good idea that Tempel 1 was in for a surprise about six months later, and then there’s all the planning leading up to the launch. I think all the savvy minor-comet-inclusive astrologers ought to have taken Tempel 1 off their lists a year or so ago and waited to see what happened, although, again, couldn’t they predict..?

Not quite sure what you meant there.

Bad memory? “Pet theories”, remember? Might be a good idea to have your head examined. Could you please do me a favour and explain to me this Big Bang theory again, I just don’t seem to get it. Amuse me. And attempt to do the pyramids, crop circles, near death experiences, healing, telepathy, canalization and general clairvoyance while you’re at it. Bet science has some pretty nonsensical pet theories on those phenomena too, to reuse your and Les’ terms.

Intriguing to learn about your wife and pets, warbi. I’m sure you have a tremendously passionate and loving life together, the entire herd of you.

Science doesn’t claim to know anything with 100% certainty, though some theories seem to hold up pretty damn well.

Well, many scientific theories hold water. The other ones require some amount of experimenting. Like “wonder how many megatons of nuclear explosive force does it take do destroy our civilization”? And “what number of legs is optimal for the perfect soccer player”, “hey, this dude is too anxious, let’s cut a couple of wires inside his head and see what happens”, “let’s try and cure homosexuality” and “wonder how much Coca Cola would be willing to pay to have their logo pasted all over the full moon a friday night”?

Is it just me or is Mediator’s comments becoming more nonsensical with each iteration?

And what is it with you guys - what is this call for backup nonsense of yours all about? Here you are, coincidently born into some society, adopting most of its rules no questions asked, trusting what you are told to trust pro-American as you are, indoctrinated, like ever-accepting robots. Autopilot on, blinders on. Comparing yourself to your neighbours, your friends and stereotypes you see in media, adjusting course if necessary. Trying to normalize and be less than your fullest potential, hiding behind your patriotism and all the fancy stuff that you buy. Leaving the control of your life to others. Where the hell did your true identity go? And you don’t even see the problem. Not even now, as it has been pointed out to you. You will claim I am wrong again, but take a good look at yourself and you will see that I’m not. That goes for you too, decrepitoldfool-the-librarian - put away your magnifying glass, and you might be able pick up some good points from some broad-minded foreigner now and then. Being open is always the healthy approach.

Well, gotta go. World goes on, even though you don’t seem to be. Might check in later, if holiday or other aspects of my harmonious life don’t get to me first… if not, you shall all know that it has been interesting to witness the stuck-up pro-American stubbornness up close. It was pretty much according to my assumptions. And good luck with the rest of your lives.

You can tell Mediator hasn’t looked around this site much. Me? Stuck-up pro-American? Man, I can think of some folks who would laugh their asses off over someone trying to apply that label to me. Still, as I said before, it’s a refreshing change to be called such things.

Hey, if nothing else, Mediator certainly is amusing.

mediator said:
“decrepitoldfool-the-librarian - put away your magnifying glass, and you might be able pick up some good points from some broad-minded foreigner now and then. Being open is always the healthy approach.”

Wonderful!  I actually do carry a magnifying glass.  Lately I have been using it a lot to watch ants - fascinating creatures.

I agree it is healthy to be open to new evidence.  That is what you meant, wasn’t it?

Wait!  Don’t go!

Darn.  And it was just starting to get interesting.

Mediator spewed forth:

And attempt to do the pyramids, crop circles, near death experiences, healing, telepathy, canalization and general clairvoyance while you’re at it.

Wow. Mediator appears to believe EVERY crack pot theory ever developed. I bet if he ever watched Penn and Teller’s Bullshit his head would simply explode.

Maybe he’s the anti-Randi......

You can tell Mediator hasn’t looked around this site much.

True. Maybe “pro-american” was too prejudiced in your case, but the patriotism and stuckupedness you ooze right here at this very place. And, everything is relative. You might not be more of those than the average American man.

I agree it is healthy to be open to new evidence.  That is what you meant, wasn’t it?

True. Evidence for the open minded only to catch.

Wow. Mediator appears to believe EVERY crack pot theory ever developed.

There’s a great difference between believing something and living it. It’s all based on experience. That’s more than disciples of science like you may claim, swallowing theories you don’t even comprehend - how clever is that? Guess you’re one of those who laugh when you don’t get the point too.

You’d be surprised if you knew what I know… but once you know, paradoxically it won’t surprise you at all.

Points are often easily illustrated through paradoxical expressions…

We’re never so vulnerable than when we trust someone - but paradoxically, if we cannot trust, neither can we find love or joy.
Walter Anderson

To have that sense of one’s intrinsic worth which constitutes self-respect is potentially to have everything: the ability to discriminate, to love and to remain indifferent. To lack it is to be locked within oneself, paradoxically incapable of either love or indifference.
Joan Didion

Remember that fear always lurks behind perfectionism. Confronting your fears and allowing yourself the right to be human can, paradoxically, make you a far happier and more productive person.
David M. Burns

Tragedy is the greatest art form of all. It gives us the courage to continue with our life by exposing us to the pain of life. It is unsentimental, it takes us seriously as human beings, it is not condescending. Paradoxically, by seeing pain we are made greater, it becomes a need.
Howard Barker

But why strive for eternal happiness when there are ham sandwiches?
Which is better, eternal happiness or a ham sandwich? It would appear that eternal happiness is better, but this is really not so! After all, nothing is better than eternal happiness, and a ham sandwich is certainly better than nothing. Therefore a ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness.
Smullyan (1), p. 219

Have a great, spiritually uplifing summer, guys! I’ll check back later ;o)

This and the half-built bomb shelter in my backyard are precisely the reasons I quit smoking pot.

Mediator: “There is a plan behind everything”

“The Plan” is that WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. The moon is slowly leaving us, the sun is going to eventually burn out, Yellowstone could blow us all to the underground inferno any second now. . . So, you see, “The Plan” was to put non- 21 gram soul -believing Atheists in NASA so they could blow shit up, knock things into other things, and very soon send Earth flying into a Black Hole. I “just know” Universe is going to save time and resources this way. So you see, it is all okay. All is going according to “The Plan.”

I understand.
Sincerely,
The resident Neurotic

Mediator spewed forth with the following…

True. Maybe “pro-american� was too prejudiced in your case, but the patriotism and stuckupedness you ooze right here at this very place. And, everything is relative. You might not be more of those than the average American man.

Even that would be a step up from where most folks seem to think my level of patriotism is at. Amusing.

True. Evidence for the open minded only to catch.

Methinks Mediator is a bit too open minded to the point that his brains have fallen out. There’s a difference between being open minded and being an overly credulous idiot and I think he may have stepped over it a looooooonnng time ago.

There’s a great difference between believing something and living it. It’s all based on experience. That’s more than disciples of science like you may claim, swallowing theories you don’t even comprehend - how clever is that? Guess you’re one of those who laugh when you don’t get the point too.

I accept the apparent sincerity of your statements, but that doesn’t mean I accept what you believe to be true as being true. I know a lot of sincere people who claim a lot of fantastic things as being true with little to no evidence to support their claims. They tend to get all indignant much like you have when I smile and say, “That’s nice, but I’m not buying into it without a bit more to go on than your anecdotes.” I’ve experienced plenty of things which I was unable to explain for years afterwards and there’s still a few mysteries in life that I’ve not figured out, but that doesn’t mean they have supernatural basis behind them. I also know first hand how easily the senses are fooled and how real something that isn’t can seem.

You’d be surprised if you knew what I know… but once you know, paradoxically it won’t surprise you at all.

Actually, I doubt I’d be surprised by anything you have to say. I haven’t been so far. You don’t seriously think you’re the first guy to show up here and start making such claims, do you? Ghosts, past lives, invisible pink unicorns, hyper-intelligent pan dimensional beings of a curious shade of blue, I’ve had all sorts of people who seriously and sincerely believed in all of those things and so much more try to convince me of the truth of their convictions. They all sound pretty much like you sound and they all have similar reactions.

Most amusingly, they all, like you, view themselves as some sort of maverick holding ideas that are just too extreme and unconventional for someone as “normal” as myself to understand. But the truth is I do understand, I just don’t agree. But if it helps to you sleep through the night then, by all means, believe whatever the hell you want.

There’s a difference between being open minded and being an overly credulous idiot

Just like there’s a quite conspicuous difference between “grown up” and “overgrown”.

being an overly credulous idiot

Credulous? I believe that I made myself clear enough for a donkey to understand. But then again - you’re not a donkey, are you? Even though you’re just as obstinate as one.

I also know first hand how easily the senses are fooled and how real something that isn’t can seem.

True. But just like there’s a difference between being open minded and being credulous, “believing” and “knowing” are different things. Being open minded is the most fundamental condition for successful personal development. And that includes body, mind AND soul. Denying ones spiritual self just because it has not “appeared”, is like denying oranges just because you have never seen one.

I was once an agnostic, and as rigid as I am I can promise you it took dozens of solid proof to convince me. Visuals and physical encounters, more than clear and obvious enough. Absolutely no drugs involved, in case you wonder. No nothing. But why I am wasting my vacation on discussing spiritual matters with an ateist, beats me.

You’d be surprised if you knew what I know… but once you know, paradoxically it won’t surprise you at all.

Actually, I doubt I’d be surprised by anything you have to say. I haven’t been so far.

That’s the point! Simply memorizing Freud and Nietsche’s works won’t make you a genious in psychology. I’m talking about the day you KNOW. If that day even comes in your current life.

But the truth is I do understand

An ateist is completely incapable of understanding how it feels to be spiritually awake. Just trust me there - it’s true, and you know that. But envious - you’re not, happily unknowing as you are.

The best of luck with your life!