Serai

I wasn’t Euro-bashing (though I do sometimes …lack of unity is not exclusive to Europeans (and I thought you lot didn’t consider yourselves to be Europeans!)  I just threw in the Europe thing to counter Becky/Snerk’s new Roman Empire, anti-Christ “prophecy” theory.

Jehovah’s Witness huh?  I have a cousin who is one of them…no Christmas or birthday presents and all that.  Their conception of Heaven and Hell is interesting.  The way it was explained to me, all the “good” people who ever lived will inhabit the Earth (Heaven) and the “bad” ones will cease to exist at all, (Hell).  No burning and gnashing of teeth for the baddies; just oblivion.  Outstanding observation you made to Snerk’s post:

You know it’s funny that you quote Isaiah, because I’ve always taken that particular scripture to show that God new damn well what was going to happen to mankind as soon as he created them. So in effect he is the cause of all the suffering and evil on the Earth.

Absolutely…He can’t know everything and not know what Satan would eventually become, so it follows:

God Created Satan
Satan Is Evil
God Created Evil

I kept that syllogism to three words per element to make it simple for Snerk to follow.  Hey Snerkster…show me the flaws in this statement :confused:

After seeing through the hypocrisy in the JW’s I left as quick as you like, and since leaving I began slowly deprogramming myself from all the bull that they force feed you. If you judge the JW’s by the same criteria that they judge other religions you can clearly see they are among the false prophets, I can’t think of many religions that have made quite as many failed predictions as they have, and yet they still persist in making them.

I am now pretty happy with my current beliefs, which I can proudly say are mine, and not beliefs I have been convinced of, or converted to.

Sooo…you didn’t like any religions you found, so you made up your own?

That’s nice.  You’re delusional, but in your own particular way.  How charming.

No you couldn’t be more wrong actually Jake, on both counts. I am neither delusional nor conceited enough to believe I have my own religion. I simply came to the realisation that I personally do not need religion, all I need is the beliefs I have.

Why do people insist on having their beliefs dictated to them by other people? I thought the whole point was for us to be personally accountable to our creator etc, well how can you be personally accountable when you just accept someone elses regurgitated views?

And for the record I don’t normally feed trolls, but I am making an exception just this once Jake. =P

Even so, if you’re going to be delusional at least Serai is being creative and original in his delusions instead of just copying how everyone else is being delusional. I’ve got to give him credit for that much at least.

Umm thank you Les, can I just make a tiny correction? It’s her, as in female gender ta, of course you couldn’t have known that.

My most sincere and humble apologies. I should have looked more closely at your email address before making assumptions. Please excuse my faux pas.

Most graciously accepted

Oh snap…Jake are you gonna let Serai get away with that troll remark!  Man I would be willing to kick some cyber-ass over that one.  By the way…are you a troll?  I mean maybe troll is the new politically correct term for “midget” or something.  I don’t want to appear insensitive… if you are a “little person” or a “dwarf” or “troll” or whatever, that’s cool…who am I to judge.

Do you prefer sex with troll chicks or non-troll types?  Damn I’ve just shown my insensitivity again…you might very well be a gay troll (not that there’s anything wrong with that!)  What kind of cars do trolls drive?  Look, just forget I posted this…I’m probably being very insensitive.  The last thing I need is some 3 foot tall, pissed-off, gay (not that there’s anything wrong with that) troll, chasing after me in his trollmobile wanting to kick my ass.  My apologies to you and “your people”.

Les thanks for correcting my “evilaaugh”!

Nah, not a troll.  I just don’t have patience for people who insist on believing in a magical skydaddy.  I have even less for those who reject all forms of organized religions to just and whip up one of their own.

Those people scare the living shit out of me.  They’re the (not sure how to spell the last name correctly, sorry) David Koresh-style woowoos out there who have the capacity for self-delusion that gets other people killed.

Go have your Kool-aid by yourself Serai…

An aside:

The very definition of rights is subject to much controversy; many things are considered rights, usually by virtue of legislation, that are not truly rights; government managed health care and pensions are examples.  True, or natural, rights, such as life, liberty, and property, and the latitude to defend the same, are often denied, or violated, in the present political context.

A true right is not negotiable.  It exists whether the founders had established a Constitution or not.  It is not granted by the Bill of Rights, but recognized.

To reiterate.  A right, rightly understood, is not negotiable.  Anyone who forces one to negotiate for them, be he politican, activist, or saint, or common thief, has violated them.

Jake please tell me where on earth I said anything about starting my own religion? Or perhaps where I said I believed in God, or any thing of the sort?

What I actually said was, after having been force fed a load of religious crap from an early age by the JW’s, I came to the conclusion that I didn’t need or want anything to do with organised religion.

What I said was that I had and here’s the keyword, personal beliefs, as in beliefs about all kinds of things based on my experiences and understanding. Lumping me in with nutballs like David Koresh is rather silly to be honest, I couldn’t be further from that type.

Lets just look at the facts, firstly I am actually not religious, I have personal beliefs which I generally keep to myself. Most if not all of my beliefs are based on personal experiences. Secondly as I mentioned above, I don’t preach my views to anyone, I keep them to myself unless someone asks specifically, and even then I only talk about them if I think it is worthwhile.

So on that basis I fail to see the grounds you are basing your judgement of me on. At least when I judged you as a troll I bothered to look at some of your other posts.

Becky, let’s just get right to the heart of the matter, shall we?

My fictitious god can beat up your fictitious god…

Rinse and repeat.

There! Now we have the history of religion in a nutshell.

You see? I mean that’s hardly an attempt at proving your point with any meaningful debate, it just looks like a poorly thought out attack on someone elses beliefs.

troll   v.,n.    1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban]  2.  An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.

And there is the basis for my judgement of you as a troll, of course I stand ready to be corrected. Perhaps if you took some time to analyse what I have said, and came up with some formula for your conclusions about me, something like ‘I think Serai is like David Koresh because…‘ You know put forward some evidence, maybe quote some things I have said that make it clear how you came to your conclusion etc. Otherwise it begins to look like you just make snap judgements of people, and then wade in guns blazing, not a great tactic really in my opinion.

SERAI U SUCK!!!!!1111 aND Jack u suck DOOO!!! I think troll is stupid name!!! SIGH ...both of you go to your homes and stop trying to make me think that flowers are pretty ....sigh…specially u jack…u make me feel like I wanna smell flowers and its gay! I hate also them… I hate also hetero sexuals!!11 specially them!...

Brett

I moderately disagree with your suppositions about rights.  You wrote:

A right, rightly understood, is not negotiable.

It’s fortunate that you added the “rightly understood” disclaimer to your argument.  If you hadn’t added those two words your entire point would have been invalid, because the “rightly understood” part is where it gets difficult.  We in the USA have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  The right to life is pretty straightforward; people should not be allowed to kill me.  The right to liberty is also not hard to understand; I’m allowed to remain free as long as I don’t commit a crime.  The pursuit of happiness is a really complex thing to try to describe; it’s an individual thing after all.

Which brings me to this statement?

Anyone who forces one to negotiate for them be he politician, activist, or saint, or common thief, has violated them.

In the “real world” (not the MTV show) everything is about negotiation…compromise.  I believe many of the world’s problems arise because people don’t get that point.  It’s not that they are necessarily good or evil; it’s that they have competing needs, wants, and desires.  If two people want the same thing and that thing is indivisible, then only one can have it.

Words are not real… they only attempt to describe real things.  There is a vast gap between ideals written down on paper and implementation of those same ideals.  For example, one of the Big 10 on Roy’s Rock says, “You will not kill”.  Now that’s a fine principle, but are police officers authorized to kill?  Is the military?  If someone breaks into my house and threatens my life, can I kill to protect my life?  What happens if I accidentally kill someone?

My point is that “You will not kill” is a fine principle, but when applied to the real world it requires significant modification.  Whether it is murder or manslaughter or negligent homicide or justifiable homicide, somebody sure as hell got killed.  Dead is a place most people do not return from, so should it matter how or why a person was killed?  Certainly it does matter and that commandment should really read, “You will not kill except in Case A, or B, or C, or…continued on the next tablet…”

I stand by my comment.

Excellent rebuttal old chap (chick?:))

Brett,

Bill has your number on this one.  Our entire civil and criminal court system is about negotiating around ambiguities in regard to conflicting rights.  It is the essence of the democratic social contract.

Serai, I think you and Becky are nutbars.

This is only a commenting system on a friggin’ weblog.

Beyond that, it’s not as if this matter is keeping me awake at night. 

You admittedly shirked the rules of a single organized religion and refused to adopt the rules of others.  You have, therefore, created your own religion.  To create your own religion is nutty.

Serai, I think you and Becky are nutbars.

Well that’s your personal belief, and you are entitled to it, even though you seem unable to qualify your reasons for it. Although I have to say I find your beliefs based upon some sixth sense, a little more disturbing than you may find mine. After all remember I haven’t actually told you what my beliefs actually are, and yet you think I am a ‘nutbar’ because I have them? One thing I am certain of however is that any beliefs I do have I can give solid reasons for them, unlike your ethereal belief in my mental instability.

You admittedly shirked the rules of a single organized religion and refused to adopt the rules of others. You have, therefore, created your own religion. To create your own religion is nutty.

Where to begin with this watertight proof of the ‘nutty’ categorisation of the majority of humanity, yourself included. I could argue that I haven’t in fact created a religion at all, because my beliefs have nothing to do with worship or veneration of a deity or higher being. Or I could on the other hand show that we all have beliefs of some kind, and so are therefore guilty as judged by Jake.

I settled for the latter as I found it slightly more amusing than the former. Jake Hazelip you are a ‘nutbar’, judged by your own words. You said to hold a personal belief that isn’t part of an organised religion is making your own religion, and therefore on planet Jake that makes you a ‘nutbar’. Well Jake your tenuous belief that I am a ‘nutbar’ by the same token makes you also a ‘nutbar’. Now do you see how foolish it is to make statements based on nothing more than your own hot air?

In conclusion, as to be honest I cannot see this going anywhere, I think we should conclude that you think I am a ‘nutbar’ which is your personal belief, and I respect that you have the right to think whatever you like about me. After all as you so rightly said,

This is only a commenting system on a friggin’ weblog.

and it’s becoming patently obvious you have nothing to qualify your statement other than more of the same ill concieved arguments.

I’m going to side with Serai on this one. Nothing she’s said to date seems to me to indicate that she has created her own religion. She hasn’t spoken of any churches she’s founded or any rituals she’s devised nor any rules she’s laid down for others to follow, all of which are things that people such as David Koresh did do. She hasn’t laid claim to being the Messiah reborn (as Koresh did) nor has she set up her own little community of followers (as Koresh also did).

Becky does strike me as a bit of a nutbar, but Serai just sounds like someone who’s decided to try and find her own path and I can’t fault her for that as I have done the same thing myself resulting in my current stance as an atheist. Personally, I’d welcome more of Serai’s type in the world because they at least seem to be striving for the truth instead of just swallowing the same 2000 year old bullshit handed down from on high. Even if we don’t agree on what the final truth might be, at least we are looking for more than the pre-digested popular pap everyone else is trying to choke down.

Yes, this is only a commenting system on a friggin’ weblog, but some people do still take the discussions here pretty seriously. I write about big topics that a lot of people consider to be very important and while it was never my intent to set this site up as being a beacon of serious debate the fact remains that some people will still use it as such, which I must say I find to be very flattering. I think this kind of sharing of ideas and viewpoints is actually very worthwhile.

David Koresh didn’t create his cult, he adopted it from others. Even if he had done so, it is merely an offshoot of existing religious ideas, and therefore he wouldn’t have acyually created his own religion, just his own church. The Raelians would be a better example, he took existing ideas (mostly secular, but completely baseless) and created a religion. Either way I am less afraid of either Koresh or Rael than I am of their followers. They are clear examples of true nutbars, and this is demonstrated in the adage “who is more crazy, the crazy man, or the person who listens to him?“

make that actually not “acyually” DOH!

Jake old son

Starting to lean towards troll in the description of you I am.  Serai never mentioned a “skydaddy” or promoted any of her personal beliefs.  Coincidentally, we all have personal beliefs, don’t you?  I have some quotes from an obscure blog I found to prove that point:

I just love the concept of the fantastical coexisting with the utterly mundane.

I could reasonably assume the author of that sentence received comfort in believing in the concept of the supernatural coexisting with the natural world.  Sounds mighty close to a religion to me.

Here’s another statement that confirms my suspicion:

I’m a chronic procrastinator as it is, and reading delicious novels about magic, overweight vampires in New Orleans, a wizard for hire in Chicago, and dragons living off the coast of Florida help me to avoid finishing the projects I have begun.

It appears that the author is a devout, life-long, follower of the religion of Procrastination.  His beliefs in supernatural entities (vampires, dragons, etc.) help to comfort and strengthen him during his worship.  I found these comments on some website called hazelip.com…ever heard of it?

Your response to this posting will either confirm or disprove my belief that you are a troll.  Once Mild Bill issues a fatwah (edict) it is irrevocable.  So says Mild Bill.  Do not question Mild Bill.  Mild Bill’s ways are not your ways.  I am Mild Bill.