Reparative Therapy: The Debate That Never Was

Posted by Michael Peacock on Friday, November 17, 2006 at 05:41 PM. Read 1674 times. Tags:
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Jeez - I spend a couple weeks away, and there’s two huge new threads here about sexual orientation.  This was my brief comment about something I saw recently in the paper about Ted Haggard, and how he’s trying to get back into the fold.  Reposted on http://www.smugbaldy.com

In a recent article, AP columnist David Crary claims that the scandal involving the Reverend Ted Haggard and his extra-marital contact with a gay prostitute has “renewed the debate” about something that has widely been discredited in psychological circles: Reparative Therapy.

“Haggard is Exhibit A of how people can’t change their sexual orientation,” said Wayne Besen, a gay-rights activist and author. “With all that he had to lose—a wife, children, a huge church—he had to be who he was in the end. He couldn’t pray away the gay.”

Proponents of reparative therapy, however, claim that sexual orientation is changeable through the use of any of several techniques, many (though not all) of which are based on a Christian religious perspective.  Indeed, while some therapists use individual or group counseling or activities, many therapists utilize prayer, fasting, and religious instruction.  In some cases therapists attempt to cure homosexuality through the use of electroconvulsive therapy or aversion therapy [Ref].

Opponents of reparative therapy claim that sexual orientation is unchangeable, and as such, any efforts to change one’s orientation will not only be met with failure, but will also likely cause harm to the individual.  In addition, opponents criticize the science behind reparative therapy because of a lack of peer review as well as the potential for clinical research bias.  Essentially, current research does not support the central claim put forth by reparative therapy proponents - that homosexuality is innately negative, and as a result, homosexuals want to change.  In addition, critics point out that reparative therapy doesn’t speak to the issue of female homosexuality at all - which is another indication of clinical bias in its proponents. [Ref.]

The American Psychological Association makes it’s position very clear:

The term “reparative therapy” refers to psychotherapy aimed at eliminating homosexual desires and is used by people who do not think homosexuality is one variation within human sexual orientation, but rather still believe homosexuality is a mental disorder. The most important fact about “reparative therapy,” also sometimes known as “conversion” therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a “cure.”

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, published by the American Psychiatric Association and defining the standard of the field, does not include homosexuality as a mental disorder. All other major health professional organizations have supported the American Psychiatric Association in its declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973. Thus, the idea that homosexuality is a mental disorder or that the emergence of same-gender sexual desires among some adolescents is in any way abnormal or mentally unhealthy has no support among health and mental health professional organizations.
[ref]

My take on this whole renewed debate is simple: There really isn’t a debate.  Never has been.

Instead, on one side we have had agreement from all the respected professional mental health associations since 1973 that homosexuality and bisexuality are normal variations within human sexual orientation.  On the other side, we have individuals and groups with political and religious interests in maintaining and consolidating social power, and they are clearly not above leveraging fear and pseudoscience to achieve their goals.  This “debate” isn’t about whether Ted can come back into the fold of heterosexuality, but rather about whether we are all dumb enough to believe that he should want to, or be forced to try to do so in the first place.

In addition, I believe that nothing speaks more eloquently of the circular logic that supports reparation therapy than this: If, in any argument involving homosexuality, we were apply the same logic to heterosexuality instead, does the argument still hold water?  For example, if we accept the premise behind reparation (or conversion) therapy that sexual orientation is changeable through Christian counseling techniques, then it should be quite possible for heterosexual individuals to become homosexual or bisexual if they pray, fast, or meditate enough.  Oops - wait a minute - here comes the kicker.  Proponents will quickly point out that this isn’t possible, because only non-hetero orientations are changeable.  Heterosexuality is what they call “innate sexual orientation” and it is not changeable - so once you’re hetero, you never go back because of its “special” status.  Clearly, this argument falls apart because it requires more than simple logic to support it - we also need to accept that heterosexuality is some sort of special sexual orientation that cannot be changed while any other orientation can be.

If you apply this little device to just about any claim made about sexual orientation: Lifestyle choice (When did you choose to become heterosexual?), political agenda (there’s a vast, heterosexual conspiracy), family raising (heterosexuals are the best parents) - you see that the claims just don’t hold water: Nobody decides to become heterosexual, there is no cabal of heterosexuals pushing the hetero political agenda, and the last time I checked, 99 percent of parents that abuse and murder their partners and children are heterosexual. 

There’s a simple explanation for all this and health professionals have been repeating it for over 30 years: Human sexual orientation is a continuum - and all variations of human sexuality are normal - even heterosexuality.

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itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/19/2006 at 07:44 AM

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The NZ Sanitarium brand (a Seventh-Day Adventist outfit) Marmite contains sugar and caramel.  The UK Unilever made Marmite does not contain sugar or caramel.  In Australia and NZ, Unilever Marmite is imported and sold under the name of Our Mate!

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 11/19/2006 at 08:17 AM

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Thanks, LJ. Think I’ll add a jar to the grocery list and give it a try this week.

Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!  It’s evil- nasty little marmiteses.

Butch or Fem?
Fem.

What, with that beard?

I hadn’t realised that Haggard had gome out as gay- not that bothered to read much about it, given I’m in the UK.  Only real reaction was Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

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Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 11/19/2006 at 08:19 AM

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Ooops- sorry Les- didn’t realise it wouldn’t wrap.

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Shelley United States Posted on 11/19/2006 at 09:49 AM

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LH: Persoannly I can’t understand why there are not more lesbians- womens bodies are much nicer.

Actually, women are more flexible on the sexuality continuum than men: they tend to range further across the spectrum. But that shouldn’t be all that surprising: we’ve always sexualized women and women’s bodies in a way that we haven’t traditionally done with men and there isn’t exactly the same kind of stigma about women being together. (Two women have always been able to live together without people making quite as much about it as they do about men.)

As far as reparative therapy goes, I’d say that where it appears to work (and what keeps this debate going is the anecdotal evidence that it sometimes works), it works in much the same way that celibacy vows do for priests: Under some conditions, with enough fear, guilt, support, and external pressure, you can get people to give up sex.

But then, we all know what happens when that stuff goes bad.

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itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/19/2006 at 11:16 AM

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As far as reparative therapy goes, I’d say that where it appears to work (and what keeps this debate going is the anecdotal evidence that it sometimes works), it works in much the same way that celibacy vows do for priests: Under some conditions, with enough fear, guilt, support, and external pressure, you can get people to give up sex.

Along with that, some of the reparative victims are actually bisexual and the brainwashing has caused them to repress the gay side of their sexuality.  This would cause reparative ‘therapy’ to seem to work, although it is a big mind fuck.

Michael Peacock United States Posted on 11/19/2006 at 12:53 PM

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My wife just forwarded this email to me:

Gay animals out of the closet?
First-ever museum display shows 51 species exhibiting homosexuality
 
From male killer whales that ride the dorsal fin of another male to female bonobos that rub their genitals together, the animal kingdom tolerates all kinds of lifestyles.

A first-ever museum display, “Against Nature?,"  which opened last month at the University of Oslo’s Natural History Museum in Norway, presents 51 species of animals exhibiting homosexuality.

“Homosexuality has been observed in more than 1,500 species, and the phenomenon has been well described for 500 of them,” said Petter Bockman, project coordinator of the exhibition.

The idea, however, is rarely discussed in the scientific community and is often dismissed as unnatural because it doesn’t appear to benefit the larger cause of species continuation.

“I think to some extent people don’t think it’s important because we went through all this time period in sociobiology where everything had to be tied to reproduction and reproductive success,” said Linda Wolfe, who heads the Department of Anthropology at East Carolina University. “If it doesn’t have [something to do] with reproduction it’s not important.”

For the full story and related links see.........  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/?GT1=8717

Edward I. Pollak, Ph.D.
Department of Psychology
West Chester University of Pennsylvania
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/epollak/home.htm

My immediate question is, “How we do conversion therapy with gay killer whales?”

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My Name is Michael - Brother Neutron Bomb of Uncanny Honesty - Peacock, and I write at The Smug Baldy Speaks

Weapon of Mass Disturbance United States Posted on 11/19/2006 at 06:32 PM

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Vegemite is a powerful high explosive invented by the evil gay agenda.

Len United States Posted on 11/19/2006 at 07:25 PM

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I’m a bit surprised that nobody has yet flagged me for the clearly made up stat about 99% of spousal murderers being heterosexual.

Given that the legal spouse-making process is denied to same-sex couples in almost all states, what’s wrong with the stat?

itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/20/2006 at 08:35 AM

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Vegemite is a powerful high explosive invented by the evil gay agenda.

Shit, you gave it away.  Supporters right now are buying out the Vegemite stocks of grocery stores worldwide.  A hasty inventory of how much Vegemite on hand is also in progress.  We have already acquired enough prepaid cell phones, AA batteries, and other necessary bits; we were just waiting on amassing sufficient quantities of Vegemite.

Ulfrekr United States Posted on 11/20/2006 at 02:58 PM

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Vegemite and Marmite are nothing- for truly disgusting, one looks to Branston Pickle.

I actually think it would be easier to change my sexual orientation than to get me to like this stuff.

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 11/20/2006 at 03:58 PM

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BRING OUT THE BRANSTON

Got have a bit of pickle with your salad.  Or cheese and pickle sandwiches. MMMMMM.  Now if you want something that looks disgusting Picalilly, only tried it for the first time this year (and I’m 29 and a few months)(105 months to be accurate) because it looks like it glows in the dark.  Its quite nice.  The fact that Piccadilly on a UK monopoly boar is the same yellow leads to the inevitable joke amoung family games up and down the land.

Anyway, back to “Raging Queers- how much war/global warming/extinction/WMD do they cause?” I heard about the Oslo exhibition a few weeks ago.  Kept meaning to post it but either couldn’t fit it in, or be arsed to.  How many Galapogos tortoises are gay? I mean, all that time hanging around evilutionists has probably taught them all forms of unclean, ungodly behavior.

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Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 11/20/2006 at 04:00 PM

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BTW- fetching hat Les- but why are you wearing a traffic cone on your head. (yes I know- in celebration of Europe getting rid of a load of religeous loonies so we could have the renaissance).

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itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/20/2006 at 04:02 PM

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Is there a particular reason that the Brits seem to have so much disgusting food?  Some food just has odd or disgusting names, such as ‘clotted cream’, ‘Northumbrian Cockle Soup’, ‘White Fish Soup with Green Fishballs’, ‘Gentlemen’s Morsels’ [yikes!], Bedfordshire Clangers, Forfar Bridies, Scotch Collops, Howtowdie, Faggots, Haggis, Jugged Hare, Rothiemurchus Collops, Huntingdon Fidget Pie, Jolly Boys, Shropshire Fidget Pie, etc.

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 11/20/2006 at 07:38 PM

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I’m sorry, that is a bit hard to swallow(!) from the nation that gave us McDonalds and KFC. Many are traditional dishes, rarely eaten now, from a time when people were a lot poorer, and food was of the New Orleans type- when you’re that short of food, anything will do. I’m sure in the US at the same period there would be similar foods. Not all food it as horrible as it sounds to modern ears- my kids love my home made toad in the hole.

I miss my dad making fried liver and bacon with thickning

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LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 11/20/2006 at 08:42 PM

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I miss my dad making fried liver and bacon with thickening

Ah, Lamb’s fry and bacon - mmm mmm
I’ve just put it on the list for Thursday. It’ll make a nice change from sirloin steak.

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itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/20/2006 at 09:03 PM

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Many are traditional dishes, rarely eaten now, from a time when people were a lot poorer, and food was of the New Orleans type- when you’re that short of food, anything will do. I’m sure in the US at the same period there would be similar foods.

Except for the haggis and Vegemite, I wasn’t making fun of the food itself, I just found the names to be odd.  Clotted cream is an example, I like Devonshire or clotted cream on top of many desserts. The other foods are probably good too. “Rothiemurchus Collops” is probably a very good way to prepare venison, but the name seems very strange to me.  Gentleman’s Morsels sounds scary, they are actually small ham sandwiches with apricot jam and mustard.  Howtowdie is a chicken casserole, I am not sure that I would like the chicken liver that’s in it though..

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 11/20/2006 at 09:23 PM

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I just found the names to be odd

Spotted Dick, anyone?

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Weapon of Mass Disturbance United States Posted on 11/21/2006 at 11:44 AM

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Vegemite does sound a lot like cordite or dynamite or blasting JELLO in 14 delicious flavors.

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 11/21/2006 at 12:31 PM

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Vegemite is Aussie. We have the evil Marmite.

I love spotted dick, especially with golden syrup.  Clotted cream is actually a good description.  Actually I wasn’t too sure what many of those dishes were, and couldn’t be bothered to look them up.

My dad, who lived as a small boy through the Blitz, still likes dripping on bread, like many of his generation.  The thought of spreading solidified beef fat on bread makes me ill, but then I like pork scrathings, not so different.

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Consigliere United States Posted on 11/22/2006 at 01:27 AM

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I don’t know enough about reparative therapy to have an opinion on it one way or another at this point, other than I think I saw a 20/20 episode some years ago. 

Nevertheless, if one were to adopt the theoretical position that sexuality is a continuum, as has been advocated by some here, I would think that reparative therapy and/or its opposite would be theoretically possible.  It wouldn’t be changing anything.  It would tilting the sliding scale towards to an alternatively, and equally healthy and natural lifestyle, whether the tilting be towards heterosexuality or homosexuality, right?

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 11/22/2006 at 06:23 AM

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I’m not sure I’d run out of a burning building on the basis of a 20/20 episode tongue wink but the continuum of straight-to-gay probably intersects with another continuum of sexual adaptability.  So while it may be possible for some individuals to change their sexual preference, what is the point of trying to normalize that for the majority of gay people?

Les United States Posted on 11/22/2006 at 07:45 AM

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It also assumes that the point on the sexual continuum is movable and not fixed. It could be a lot like skin tone. As a white male I am not as white as some other people, but I’m certainly not black. I am at a fixed point on the continuum of skin tones.

Sure, I may be able to tan and become considerably darker with a lot of effort, but if I stop making that effort I’ll return to my current skin tone in time. The effort to make myself darker could also be potentially harmful.

Probably not the best analogy, but it’s what I’ve got at 6:45 in the morning.

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itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/22/2006 at 09:19 AM

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It would tilting the sliding scale towards to an alternatively, and equally healthy and natural lifestyle, whether the tilting be towards heterosexuality or homosexuality, right?

Reparative therapy is not a matter of tilting a sliding scale, it is a matter of repressing very strong needs.  Sex appropriate to one’s sexual orientation is not like chemical addiction, it involves a very strong, very basic, human need. 

With bisexuals, reparative therapy represses the needs of the homosexual side and attempts to fill that need by expanding the heterosexual side, in some bisexuals this MIGHT work—for a while.  I believe that these are the so-called “gays” that supposedly have been helped by reparative therapy.

In homosexuals, there is no heterosexual side to expand.  To gay males, the idea of having sex with a woman is extremely repulsive.

Nobody knows the numbers or ratios; all of the gay guys that I know have ZERO heterosexual side.  Bisexual males are distinct from homosexual males and are largely invisible. The reason for this invisibility is that because of anti-gay social pressures, the vast majority of bisexual males have already repressed their homosexual side; a sort of self imposed reparative therapy. 

Many more bisexual females express both sides of their sexuality than bisexual men do.

itdontmatter United States Posted on 11/22/2006 at 10:09 AM

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Les; Sure, I may be able to tan and become considerably darker with a lot of effort, but if I stop making that effort I’ll return to my current skin tone in time. The effort to make myself darker could also be potentially harmful.

Good analogy, but it needs to go just a bit further: 

There are fair skinned people who cannot tan, their skin burns and turns red but they never tan.

LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 11/22/2006 at 04:36 PM

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There are fair skinned people who cannot tan, their skin burns and turns red but they never tan.

A nice finishing touch. wink

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I’ve discovered that it all boils down to brain wiring: your brain is wired to worship magic or it isn’t, either it’s wired to utilize logic or it isn’t, either it’s analytical of myths or it isn’t.

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