but religion was never meant to become what it has

Meant by whom?

a voice TELLING you God exists and one questioning his existence, surely it is better to believe the one telling you than the one questioning.

Ah.  I should have know.  Meant by GOD, whom you apparently know about by a voice in your head.

Sorry! I don’t mean to be rude but when god becomes something as amorphous and personal as you describe, it/he/she is just a justification for whatever you want to do.

Just found another one fitting with the theme.

Trust me when I say it’s sickening.

Religion SHOULD never have become what it has, no1 ever said “set up a bank which is richer than most countries, set up scams and get away because you have diplomatic immunity and have your way with little kiddies”, jokes i know but on a serious note, no where has god stated he wanted man to all follow one path, and when it has been suggested it has been suggested by men and women who would gain power because of it, i may be ever so largely isane but i believe god exists through and through, what scares me is whether it matters that i or any1 else exists, no1 as ever suggested the idea that God might have got bored of his toys, we do, why shouldnt he???

but if you look inside yourself you will find 2 things, a voice TELLING you God exists and one questioning his existence, surely it is better to believe the one telling you than the one questioning.

Why is it surely better to believe the voice telling you God exists over the one that says he doesn’t? Your statement here seems arbitrary or biased at best. You could make the same argument about Santa Claus. Another admirable, but fictional, character that would be great if he really existed.

Do not dismiss the idea you believe in God purely on the basis that some people seek power from him, they are more akin to satan that God, find God your own way, not how a pervert tells you to!

Just as not all people wear the same clothes, not all people reject the idea of God(s) as real for the same simplistic reason. My primary reason for not believing in God(s) is due to the absolute lack of any evidence in my life that such a being exists. The fact that some people seek power as representatives of God is, at best, supporting evidence of his lack of existence, but it’s not a significant reason behind my lack of faith.

no where has god stated he wanted man to all follow one path, and when it has been suggested it has been suggested by men and women who would gain power because of it,

Well, unless God is willing to show up and speak for himself, which he seems reluctant to do, then how do you know any better than any other man what God did or didn’t say?

i may be ever so largely isane but i believe god exists through and through, what scares me is whether it matters that i or any1 else exists, no1 as ever suggested the idea that God might have got bored of his toys, we do, why shouldnt he???

That is a possibility, but not one I lay awake worrying about at night. If God does exist, but is no longer interested in the affairs of man and has wandered off to play with his Tinker Toys for a couple of eons then it’s pretty much the same net effect of him not existing so it makes little difference to my viewpoint.

Not sure running a cult is for me, though.  You have to get the compound built, recruit the disaffected youth, stockpile the weapons, find Kool-Aid recipes, come up with tenets, stay off the FBI and IRS radar; then there’s the daily haranguing of followers… it sounds like a lot of work.

Chicks, DOF. Its all about the chicks. Uh, and the money. And having your nifty compound with the secret doors and Anti-Guvment-Defenses (TM) built by your FOLLOWERS. I fear you may be right about the haranguing, though.

great discussion all.
Paddy, you make a statement that I found to hard to reconcile.

but religion was never meant to become what it has, where it is impossible to tell the words of God from a pervert calling himself pope, religion is a personal thing; saying that everyone can find God down the same road is like saying everyone must wear the same clothes.

I don’t think that the this is supportable given the religious texts that I am (ok, only slightly) familiar with.  Take a look at Leviticus. Why in the world would you spend so much time and effort (not to mention expense papyrus or vellum, ink, someone else growing your food as you wrote - not to mention as you learned to write etc.) writting down such a long list proper behaivor and prohibited activity for a religion that was

...not meant to be organised in any way shape or form…

Its clear from numerous areas of the old testament that at least the religion espoused (Judaism) was a method of social control and cohesion.  It was not designed to make everyone feel good about themselves - it was meant to make them obey.  Fear of the “great big sawn off shotgun in the sky” (wish I could remember who said that- anyone?) or the people in the community killing you for stepping outside of what was considered acceptable behivor help bind the half pastoral half agrarian judean tribes together to present a more united society to a dangerous world. I’ll bet religion was probably just a way to stop the kids from asking you “why?” all the time that evolved into a mechanism that kept a culture together in units larger than the extended family.  It was justification to live and work together and sometimes make the interests of the community the most important part of your life.  They’d end it for you if you didn’t.
my 2 cents anyway.

One last thing:
I invite you all to check out the essay to which this link points.  Its not entirely scientific but is cogent to the discussion on this board, very thought provoking and well written.  http://www.bidstrup.com/virus.htm

You are right. Religion probably grew out of a way to control a society. It used an invisible omnipotent figure to scare people into obediance because governments can only go so far to capture you; governments have human limitations. This so called god on the other hand does not. He is described as all seeing and all powerful. Thus if he sees you commit a crime—one which no one else has seen—he can get you—no matter how elusive you are. Sounds like an easy way out for a government to me.

Cheers BunBun

Thanks BunBun
I remember from my inadequate studies of human history that most early governments - particularly durring the period when writing was first invented - shortly after we settled down to farm, had a major religious element.  The leader was a high priest or priest king or some such who was a direct descendant from divinity or was inspired by divine principles. In many cases this person was directly responsible for intercedeing with God(s) to ensure harvests, military victory or even seasonal river floods.  In essence I believe religion (theocracy) was probably the FIRST type of human government over polities larger than an extended family.  Why continue on with an obsolete system of governement?  Get rid of it (if only I knew how!) - it will only compete with the more modern systems you do have in place that can adapt (theoretically anyway) to challenges and advances more redily than an impending theocracy.  Its a revolution waiting to happen - just look at the Taliban.  A theocratic state was errected on the ashes of a failed communist state.

One of the big problems with religious governments/theocracies in general is the way a government like that staks in power: keeping the masses of people under it uneducated. That way they do not question the descisions made by the priest/king and if the priest/king is wrong initially he can then explain his wrongness in such a way that he is not blamed.

It is interesting to note the Japanese goverment before the 1800s. The emporer was meant to be desended from some sort of sun god/godess(at least thats what I remeber from reading about it). However the real power was in the hands of the shogun—the military leader or general. Japan seemed to be going against the norm in that case.

Cheers BunBun

Religion probably grew out of a way to control a society.(BunBun)

I dunno, it’s hard for me to picture government preceding religion in the emergence of human society.  But I can easily imagine it all beginning with children’s incessant questions. 

“Mommie, what happened to Oogie after the lion ate him?”
“Mommie, what is the loud noise in the sky?”

Parents have to explain stars, thunder, growing plants, death, predators, the world, what’s beyond the ocean, bad people, babies, you name it.  The questions never stop and they didn’t have the Encyclopaedia Brittanica over on the bookshelf to fall back on.

Anyone who has raised children, you know - eventually you’ll tell them anything for a little peace and quiet. 

Of course, then, those children grow up to be parents and it’s entirely possible they fully believe what their parents told them.  And they may (people are creative) elaborate a little when talking to their kids, so traditional beliefs grow and thrive. 

Of course, as governments emerge, religion turns out to be pretty handy for controlling people and then production of myths can shift into high gear.

My guess is they emerged at about the same time. As organized government grew organized religion also grew. Hand in hand they can be used to control a population particularly effectively. Not to mention justify wars and keep oneself away fro the blame of bad crop years and etc.

Cheers BunBun

the way relgion has been “designed”, yes in that respect it is just another way to control people, but that does not mean we should rule out the idea God exists, purely on the basis of evil people, im sure democracy was created to aid people in the pursuit of freedom.... not one to poke fingers but i couldnt say the word nigger without being pariah’d (not that id want to) my point is, religion is a way of control, people should find God themselves not just think turning up to a building once a week or reading a book will find God for them.

Im agnostic so I do not entirely rule out the chance that god exists or that god cannot exist; however I do despise religion and think it a general waste of time. I have nother wrong with philosophies that suggest that god must be found by one self and only one’s self can find god.

Cheers BunBun

Why even give time to the idea of God?  If you think about the implications of a all powerful all knowing entity then every single thing that happens in the universe is his/her/its fault. This being is not your friend and does not care about you.  The evidence for this is all around us(tsunamis, volcanic events, floods, epidemics etc). Its no good saying that “you can’t understand gods ways” - its a nonsense statement.  We have the intellectual power to judge between good and evil - right and wrong, good and bad, etc.  These judgements of events and actions are all predicated on thier effect on us. If something effects people we intuitively make a value judgement about the event - it is either good, bad or indifferent. in this light the most god could really be is a disinterested observer - but how could he/she/it be disinterested if he/she/it started it all and knew exactly what the consequences of that action would be?
This being is either “objectively pro-people dying needlessly undignified and painful deaths” or not all powerfull/all knowing wich then reduces god to another order of existance that is powerful but not divine.
religion is the manifestation of people taking the idea of god an bending it to purposes that may have been necessary but are rather jesuitical (ends justify the means).
Religion was probably the first method of social control for the first settled humans because it kept them in line and stopped them from leaving an adult male member of a small farming community was an incredibly valuable resource.  He was a source of labor, military power and producer, along with his wife(s) of more members of the society.  If this guy said “fuck you all I’ve had enough of your games” there was very little to stop him from moving on and starting over somewhere else (where do you think human cultural diversity comes from?).  Religion allows a control mechanism that keeps people in line and the culture homogenous.  A completely necessary attribute if you want your culture to succeed.

So Your saying that when tour parents gave u jabs that infected u with a virus which made u suffer, they didnt care about you at that point in time? that they stopped caring for a short period of time?

Paddy’s right - if you postulate an all-knowing God, she could be allowing you to suffer now toward some later good that we cannot currently understand.  Like a child who is ill following a vaccination.

‘course, that’s a pretty big “if”; one for which I can’t see supporting evidence.  The desire to see practically everything as evidence of God when other explanations will suffice seems like a kind of mental illness to me.  That the illness is common makes it no less a malady.

Dof: Of course, then, those children grow up to be parents and it’s entirely possible they fully believe what their parents told them.  And they may (people are creative) elaborate a little when talking to their kids, so traditional beliefs grow and thrive.

Belief is our default mode. If our predecessors had not believed their senses, they would not have survived. In the ‘real’ word we also check things out. Having religion amounts to holding onto a set of beliefs without checking them out.

How did religions arise? The evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker offers some suggestions in his book How the Mind Works.

* The notion of a spirit arises when the mind takes a construct for something out of the natural world modifies one or more of the the properties of the construct. (A spirit then becomes exempt from one or more natural laws.)

* Mind and body seem to us to be separate. Dreams and hallucinations reinforce the notion of a soul.

* A “demand for miracles creates a market that priests can compete in, and they can succeed by exploiting people’s dependence on experts.”

In addition to appealing to people’s innate religiosity, religions also provide social services that are useful to their adherents.

Paddy, DOF
No. 
My parents didn’t jab me because they didn’t care - they jabbed me so I WOULD NOT DIE from an illness that they had no hand in creating. Now, vaccination’s only been understood for about 300 years or so if I remember correctly.  It was deduced from observation - the example i remember reading about was that a very smart frenchman saw that dairy maids did not get smallpox as often if they had been infected with cow pox, a related disease (though this was unkown before microscopy and genetic anlysis).
I might feel diferently if hummanity had developed vaccination when we invented agriculture and started living in dese vulnerable societies.  But we did not.
Pandemics in the past that killed 2/3 of europe in the 13th century or the later series of european diseases that killed 9/10 of the poulation of the Americas 16th -19th centuries did not make the poeple who were infected stronger - they made most of them dead. In the latter series of events it destroyed the societies and cultures of the victims - almost completely. (most scientifically acceptable estimates i’ve read about give the figure of 30 million people as the population of the Americas before European contact)
The recent Asian tsunami did not make the majority of its victims stronger - it made them dead.
How do the dead learn form events that kill them?
Is it the survivors that learn from these events?  If so that God is a rough teacher.
Look at it this way: from a lab rat’s perspective is a scientist performing experiemnts that eventually kill them doing good or doing bad?  How much worse is it to arbitrarily kill beings that are self aware, feel grief, distress, horror, love, pity etc?  Sadistic. 
If we can’t understand it, that’s his/her/its fault if he/she/it designed and built us.  By saying God’s ways are mysterious we are abandoning any obligation to think critically of the events that beset us.  No problem for me - life is rough unfair, arbitrary and godless - but a believer should be able to justify it.
reminds me of a quote I recently ran across from Bill Bryson(?) - it describes entropy:
Can’t win.
Can’t break even.
Can’t stop playing.

Why even give time to the idea of God?  If you think about the implications of a all powerful all knowing entity then every single thing that happens in the universe is his/her/its fault. This being is not your friend and does not care about you.  The evidence for this is all around us(tsunamis, volcanic events, floods, epidemics etc)

If you were talking to me then here is my answer. I never said that god has to care about us. I am agnostic so I do not believe in god rather I am open to belief in god if he proves himself to be real. My agnosticity has nothing to do with this gods morals (or lack there of). If god does exist my thinking is that it is probably some sort of semi conscious being that controls the way probablity eorks in our universe.

Cheers BunBun

The book you are probably talking about is “A Short History Of Every Thing.”

Cheers BunBun

Belief is our default mode. If our predecessors had not believed their senses, they would not have survived. In the ‘real’ word we also check things out. Having religion amounts to holding onto a set of beliefs without checking them out.

good one.
I’d modify this a bit, though. 
Humans percieve cause and effect.  It allows us to use culture and technology to change our world.  God becomes the ultimate cause for effects that we cannot explain.  We have to resist the temptation to explain the causes of effects we cannot yet explain with the ineffible.  From a practicle point of view the ineffible is useless.  Should be avoided at all costs as it leads to false, sometimes dangerous assumptions.  examples:
Gathering in a crowded church to pray fro delivernce from a disease (bubonic plauge is what I’m thinking here).
Drinking the kool-aid because the heathens are going to shut you down and you’ll all go to hell - unless you drink it and go to heaven right now. (Jim Jones)
Rebelling against the Romans because they want to put thier gods in your temples (pick any of several jewish rebellions against Rome).

Ironicname, please understand I’m not arguing that “God’s ways are mysterious” crap, only saying it is logically consistent with the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnicompassionate super-being.  If such a being exists, and if you have an eternal soul, there could be some purpose to your dying here on Earth that you would not understand at the time.

Of course, that’s where Paddy and I have to part company, as Paddy can postulate that being, can apparently postulate an eternal soul, and… I just can’t. It’s too many “ifs” for my liking.

Thanks BunBun,
That was not directed at you.  I threw it out there to see if anyone would bite.  I don’t think God exists - but you probably figured that out
Thanks it was “A Short History of Everything”.  Fun book for cross country flight.

DOF,
Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. You’re right.  There could be a purpose if all the “ifs” tumble the right way.  I too have a problem with the O, O & O being (call it “OOO” for short).