Religion itself is the fount of most evil.

Posted by Bachalon on Sunday, July 24, 2005 at 09:19 PM. Read 4310 times. Tags:
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Found this in today’s Sunday Herald, and thought I’d share some of it with you guys.

For the government of a secular country such as ours to treat religion as if it had real merit instead of regarding it as a ridiculous anachronism, which education, wisdom and experience can hopefully overcome in time, is one of the most depressing developments of the 21st century. Religious people must be treated with the same respect as non-religious people, but their religions should quite properly be regarded with the weary contempt they deserve. Instead we have debates on TV news shows between hardline Muslim scholars and moderate Muslim politicians without any intervening voice of scepticism suggesting that the whole darned thing might be just as invented as virgin births and Mormon tablets.


We have bishops arguing with Christian women about ordination as if this is an important issue, again without the obvious interjection that it is unlikely in the extreme that there exists any god at all, never mind a peculiar one who cares what sex wears the cassock. And there goes old nutty Ruth Kelly using taxpayers’ money to introduce a whole new clutch of assorted religious schools that will abuse the innocence of trusting children by teaching them superstition alongside facts to ensure they cannot separate the two.


The defence of any attacked faith is always to say: “You don’t understand our religion.” It’s considerably more likely that those defenders of their rrational beliefs have failed to understand Montesquieu, Hume, Rousseau and Diderot. The tattooed drunken morons attending an Orange walk are hardly theologians.


Since these are dark days, it’s time to stop all this polite tiptoeing around religion and harden up accordingly. Our elected leaders constantly bleating their respect for religion is not political correctness but a public declaration that intellect, tolerance, democracy, reason and enlightenment are of less value than dogma and delusion. Now’s the moment for a clear, definite, distinct line to be drawn between state and religion, one that defends the individual’s right to follow whatever ideology he or she wishes within the law, but also firmly declares and vigorously defends our collective ideals of gender equality, respect for differing sexual orientations and reinforces the message that there is no room whatsoever for the supernatural and the irrational. No bishops, mullahs, Presbyterian ministers, rabbis, or Scientologists should be gifted special hearings at Downing Street, but should confine themselves to wielding their power and freedom as the rest of us do, namely as ordinary voters, and the state-funded faith schools that shame us all with their manipulation of young minds must cease. We have all been mugged, but the shock must take us back to reason and as far away from religion as we can get.

What do you think?

Comments:

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BunBun United States Posted on 08/01/2005 at 09:32 PM

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The only question that I could see answered by such a god is probablity. If any of you have read anything about quantum physics then you probably will understand. Every thing on the quantum level is governed by proability: electrons cannot have a definite known location. We can only guess about where they are. Thats one example of probabilty. That type of question—what governs probability?—is hard to answer. It is some thing that we cannot answer yet with out the aid of OOO. Although looking back in the past and trying to learn from the mistakes thay made back then: I think an answer will show itself. 600 years ago the earth was flat. Now it is round. It based on the fact that stuff no known now will be figured out later that I do not explain probability with OOO. I think it will be figured out later on.

Sorry for any incohesiveness. Its late and I want to go to bed.

Cheers BunBun

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Cheers BunBun[color=red]

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 08/01/2005 at 09:38 PM

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That type of question—what governs probability?—is hard to answer. It is some thing that we cannot answer yet with out the aid of OOO.

The difference between religion and science:

The religionist whistles in the dark.  Religion is terrified by the unanswered question, so makes up an answer, even if it’s OOO.

Science is all about the unanswered question.  We may have practical needs for a quick answer, but the scientific approach is to start digging for it.  A made-up answer won’t serve.

ironicname United States Posted on 08/01/2005 at 09:51 PM

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BunBun, DOF,
I agree with the both of you.  Its a mistake to attribute what we don’t understand to something we *can’t* understand.  I can see lightning and hear thunder.  1500 years ago my ancestors believed thunder and lighting where the gods (Wodin and Thor or some Irish fantasy depending on which side of my family you belonged too) dicing in the heavens or knocking around giants out to get us.  Now I know that it is a charge potential grounding itself -which means I now know to stay the hell away from certain situation if I don’t want to get electrocuted. my ancestors probably knew this too - but they just thought “boy, that Thor can be a real fucker- watch out for him when he’s in the mood”
BunBun, its been a fab discussion and I appretiate your perspective - good night and sleep well.

Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:53 AM

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This is a bad analogy so i apologise before hand, but it is just as likely that God enjoys seeing us “evolve”, like a computer game, you work your way up the ranks increasingly, you do not start from the top, as such God has put us at the bottom and let us work our way up, this may seem harsh, but it is a well known fact you cannot help those who do not want help, and i know, you will say those ppl in the tsunami wanted Gods help, but if he imposed his rule on Earth, and controlled every1 so we did everything properly, do you think we could accept that, i know personally that i hate being made to do something i dont want to even if i know its right. I mean, im sure you enjoy poking fun at people or certain things, and for god to help in some circumstances and leave others alone would be hypocritical

serge Canada Posted on 08/02/2005 at 09:56 AM

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1500 years ago my ancestors believed thunder and lighting where the gods (Wodin and Thor or some Irish fantasy depending on which side of my family you belonged too) dicing in the heavens or knocking around giants out to get us.

How about 75 years ago when my grandmother was a child, and outside there was a thunderstorm…the priest and nuns were running around telling children that god was upset and you were required to pray and spray holy water everywhere. You had to light candles and pray some more….
That scared the hell out of my grandma and later on scared me. The fact that I overheard these stories when I was young hurt me even if I don’t have much faith in organised mind controling religions. That for me is a very good example of how they can make believe anything they want.

VernR United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 11:29 AM

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ironicname: We have to resist the temptation to explain the causes of effects we cannot yet explain with the ineffible.  From a practice point of view the ineffible is useless. Should be avoided at all costs as it leads to false, sometimes dangerous assumptions.

I agree with your post. I was giving an outline of why religions develop and was going for brevity. Your post expands on what I said. An observation—you could have added witch burning as an off-hand example of an assumption that is dangerous others.

When it comes to religious belief, practice ain’t in it—the religious don’t test their beliefs. A couple of months ago I reviewed two books by neuroscientists that go into the subject in a lot more depth. Here is an excerpt  from the second book in which Michael Gazzaniga (the second author) discusses belief, the appeal of religion, and what I believe to be the genetic basis for religiosity (more correctly, the tendency to be religious).

ironicname United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 01:31 PM

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VernR,

From a practice point

Sorry, should read “practical”.  Typo on my part.  Your link does not appear to have come through.  I’d love to take a look at ‘em.  I realize that religions are seldom practical - but I’m not comming to this from a religious perspective.  Seems to me that if you have a novel idea of how the world works you should be able to test it for effect.

VernR United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 02:05 PM

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ironicname,

I actually read it as practical and didn’t catch the typo.

I also managed not to see the botched links. Here they are. (Tested this time.)

Reviews
http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/summer_reading/

Excerpt
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/155926.ctl

Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 03:12 PM

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A point that was made to that seems quite relevant is that, what if by killing us at a certain point in life, God saves us from commiting an act of untold sin or saving us from a worse fate. Think of life as more like a web of living things, everytime you change things for one of those pieces of the web you affect the rest, and so this life, might be the best possible outcome of a very bloody mess, if God saved everyone, then the likes of Sadam Hussein would be on the loose, those terrorist bombers in london would be alive to do it again, and those evil men of the sept 11th flights would be still attempting that now. I realise your next argument is that God should surely be able to save the good people over the bad, but who is to say what these people have done in their lives, whether they beg for forgiveness for what they have done, and if they were being, what they thought, selfless in their actions (believe me when i say this i hate terrorists as much as anyone and when they are killed i am glad for it to my shame), as much as this argument personally annoys me, we cannot understand what God is or has planned, just like an ant cant read a book.

ironicname United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 03:13 PM

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Thanks Vern,
I do beieve I’ll pick up a copy of the Gazzaniga book.

ironicname United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 03:40 PM

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Paddy,
An ant can’t-so far as I know- act on anything other than instinct.  I doubt an ant has the capacity to learn - but hey i aint no entymologist. 
I understand that you believe and want others too as well (just as I don’t and want others to come to the same conclusion), but I do not find your argument compelling. 

A point that was made to that seems quite relevant is that, what if by killing us at a certain point in life, God saves us from commiting an act of untold sin or saving us from a worse fate.

if you bieve in OOO as the creator of the world and everything in it, you’ve got to believe he/she/it made the mess we live in by creating us with certain drives, attitudes and capabilities. Not to mention the deadly natural phenomena we endure. OOO is responsible for the rigged game we are forced to play.  Living, thinking, feeling, self aware social creatures forced to die horribly, endure enslavement, watch thier loved ones killed etc. etc. for a purpose they cannot understand.  This is not the act of a rational or kind creature.  I may have to put one of my dogs down some time in the future - but I’m not going to torture him before I do it. 

I realise your next argument is that God should surely be able to save the good people over the bad,

Sorry Paddy, this would not be my next argument.  OOO, in order to be any sort of diety that you could get behind, would have created a system that precluded the existance of such things as tsunamis, qausi-living virisus that kill us by liquifying our internal organs so they leak out of every orifice in a massively contagious hemmorage, industrialized death camps, pick another horror.
We can’t understand OOO’s ways because he is so far above us is not a good argument.  We can determine right from wrong - are you saying that right and wrong are conditional?  Morality changes as you progress in power? 
Or perhaps that OOO has got to kill us in car-load lots because he somehow needs that to survive?  We serve as some sort of prey species?
I find it odd that people believe that we have to endure bad things because its OOO’s will and we can’t comprehend his purpose - but no, really, its good for us in the long run.  Why just stick with a simpler answer?  The world is a dangerous place that contains many perils that will kill us and humans are primates with large, frequently malfunctioning brains and a strong desire to dominate others.  It’s much more liberating to remove the idea of OOO up in the sky watching you play in traffic and embrace the fact that you and yours are all you’ve got and once you’re dead you’re dead.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 04:29 PM

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(offtopic divergence=“a little”) I hate to write this but Bush just came out in support of teaching “Intelligent Design” in schools.

Maybe someone will start a thread on it.  I’m kind of stumped for what to say about it though, other than… damn.  (/offtopic)

Skippy United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 04:37 PM

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A point that was made to that seems quite relevant is that, what if by killing us at a certain point in life, God saves us from commiting an act of untold sin or saving us from a worse fate.

Yeah! Fuck free will!  I once almost slept with this really needy chick when I was drunk, but my friends stopped me and got me sobered up.  Kinda like that, huh?

Think of life as more like a web of living things, everytime you change things for one of those pieces of the web you affect the rest, and so this life, might be the best possible outcome of a very bloody mess,

Fuck that’s depressing.  This is the best possible outcome for life?

Of course, if that’s true, then it’s a remarkably astute bit of marketing on OOO’s part.  It sets the bar pretty low for “paradise.“

if God saved everyone, then the likes of Sadam Hussein would be on the loose,

He was.

those terrorist bombers in london would be alive to do it again,

They did. Or more precisely, others like them did.

and those evil men of the sept 11th flights would be still attempting that now.

Only if their first attempt had failed.  Oh, and if airbag technology were better.

I realise your next argument is that God should surely be able to save the good people over the bad, but who is to say what these people have done in their lives, whether they beg for forgiveness for what they have done, and if they were being, what they thought, selfless in their actions

Apparently, OOO has that say.  But who died and made him George W. Bush?

(believe me when i say this i hate terrorists as much as anyone and when they are killed i am glad for it to my shame)

Me too.  Because if you can survive flying a plane into a building, or a bomb strapped to your chest, you are either undead or an X-man.  And either one fucks my whole belief system right the hell up.

as much as this argument personally annoys me, we cannot understand what God is or has planned, just like an ant cant read a book.

Guess what?  I can’t understand what ants are saying, either.  But that may be the most valuable perspective of that analogy.

Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 04:38 PM

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Right and Wrong are conditional, 2000 years ago it was okay for women to be second class citizens, nothing was thought of it, but now it is totally unacceptable, and we understand these ideals from our perseptive, just like the ant will understand things from its; i am sure if it has any form of conciousness that it does not believe that it is purely driven by instinct, that it has its own thought patterns, the same can be said for us, we believe that we have i strong grasp on what is right and wrong, yet these beliefs have changed, is it not possible that these beliefs are changing towards what God intends for us,

ps. why do you not type the name God

ironicname United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 04:55 PM

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Which god’s name shall I type?  Allah’s?  Jahweh? Vishnu’s?
God is a title, not a name.  Or at least it wasn’t a name until He stepped on the scene and His followers cajoled, coerced or killed the fellows who believed differently - at least in Europe.
OOO is an acronym for

omnipotent, omniscient, omnicompassionate


Its also highly ireverent and tickles me to no end when I use it.


Hey Skippy - man, tell us how you really feel.  Quit holding back!
  LOL

Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 05:11 PM

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that makes alot of sense actually, well unless you believe that Lucifer gave the Qu’ran to Muhamed…. would make alot of sense really…., oh and im sorry you didnt get laid skippy, its happened to me before

nowiser United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 05:27 PM

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we cannot understand what God is or has planned, just like an ant cant read a book

*shrug*.  I’m pretty indifferent to the indefinable, ineffable, unknowable god.  What bugs me is the nutcases who claim that they (and only they) have somehow acquired the super-secret-decoder-rings, and thus they know exactly how ‘we’ should live.  (Meaning, they know exactly how—everyone else—should live, and exactly how much force it is acceptable to use in order to ensure everyone else’s compliance with God’s/their will.

It annoys/amuses me to no end when people claim that God’s nature and ways are beyond our feeble understanding, and then immediately move into their spiel about how God wants us to do this, or not do that. . .

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 05:48 PM

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Like i hav said before, finding OOO is a personal thing, there is no manual to it, OOO is meant to be found ureself, if you believe what every1 says ure an idiot, some of their advice is true, but like Betrand Russel says, the second someone has the key to Heaven they have leaverage over their fellow man, finding OOO is not reading the bible, the Qu’ran, Going to a building once a week, praying stupendous times a day, or blowing ureself to smithereens, its finding OO ureself, do not lose ure faith in OOO because some people have decided to act like the devil and hide behind religion and using it as a way of controlling people

nowiser United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:31 PM

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do not lose ure faith in OOO

Personally, I’ve never had any faith to lose.  I doubt I ever will.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

BunBun United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:32 PM

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I think that if OOO exists then the only desent thing he could do for us is reveal him self to us. If he is such a good being, saving people from harsher deaths later on by killing them now, then he should be able to reveal him self to us and stop the incesant wars between various religious groups.

Another thing: I think that free will is the most important thing we have. I do not see it possable to take that away from us. We always have the choice of fighting: do or die.

Cheers BunBun

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Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:33 PM

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I know people who hav said the same thing, and then found OOO in sum cases, but if u focus on trying to prove people wong and not find God, ure kinda stupid.

Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:37 PM

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Yes but fighting God would be exactly the same thing satan did, and to be honest, its quite hard to fight something perfect, hence the reason he doesnt reveal himself

BunBun United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:40 PM

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I am not trying to prove “god wrong” so to speak. Rather I will not believe in OOO until I see evidence of his existance. But also not seeing evidence of him does not mean he does not exist. It just means that he cant be used to base any theories. Its a lot like science. All because there is no concrete evidence for string theory does not mean that it is wrong. It just cant be used for saying anything about the universe with any reliability. (String theory is not really a good example of that: it has been used to predict certain phenomanon to extreme accuracy and has a good deal of indirect evidence). But the idea is whats important. I do not really care to much if there is an OOO. I just dont want it to be taught in schools and used for justifying me being a subhuman for not believing in it(which has been suggested by some christian fundies).

Cheers BunBun

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BunBun United States Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:43 PM

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Yes but fighting God would be exactly the same thing satan did, and to be honest, its quite hard to fight something perfect, hence the reason he doesnt reveal himself.

I would only fight a god in an extreme case because, as you said: he is quite hard to fight. However if I disagreed in something he did or said to a point I would be willing to die fighting him then there would be nothing to lose by fighting him. Not to mention the satan story has a contradiction in it. God is meant to be able to do anything; yet he has to fight loucifer; he seems unable to just flick his fingers to make loucifer disappear.

Cheers BunBun

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Paddy Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/02/2005 at 07:45 PM

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i understand that, and although i believe religion is very important, i do not believe it should be taught in school as i hav said many times religion is a personal thing and so it should be, finding God is not like standing on a conveter belt, simply turning up to church does not make you religious. To find God one must find OOO in their own way, ironically i can suggest no means to do this, everyone is different. On the otherside i do not believe things such as Darwins theory of evolution should be taught as a way to conflict with religious beliefs, for starters Darwins theory of evolution has a few gaping holes in it.

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