Pure Communism vs. A Capitalistic Democracy

Posted by THEOCRAT on Monday, July 18, 2005 at 07:35 PM. Read 3234 times. Tags:
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To everyone who claims communism works only in theory… or will never work for one reason or another.  The same can be said of democracy.  It works great in theory, but eventually fails as well.  I don’t believe what America lives in now is much of a democracy.  I think it is a weak plutocracy under the guise of democracy.

The law of human nature that defeats communism is “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The law of human nature that turns democracy into plutocracy is simply selfishness and greed.  When people are given the power to do what they think is in their best interest they will try to benefit themselves as much as possible.  This creates competition and competition between parties is crushed in the name of a free capitalist market and majority rules.  Thus resulting in the formation of classes and ultimately class struggle.

Communism has a hard time survivng in this world because nearly every national economy follows capitalist ideals.  It is hard to survive in a competitive market when your philosophy and well being revolves around your ability to cooperate with your fellow man.  A communist nation can not easily compete against multiple nations trying to do what is best for themselves.

Ever see the movie, A Beautiful Mind?  A crazy mathematician at an Ivy League school writes a paper that his professors claim undoes the last couple hundred years of economic theory(Adam Smith’s laissez-faire economics).  John Nash, the main character, is inspired by a hot blonde that all of his friends want a shot at.  If they all try to woo her all of her girlfriends will be turned off when they come after them because they don’t want to be second choice.  What he suggests to his friends is that they put personal ambitions aside and each go after a different girl because it is cooperation that will benefit them the most.  If they compete, at best one guy gets one girl. If they cooperate, five guys get five girls.  That which is best for the individual and has a positive or neutral effect on the community is best overall.  Cooperation is the driving force behind the communist ideal. 

It would be my preference to be under a socialist government(aiming for a communist society), because I feel it would be easier to deal with a a few corrupt leaders every so often than a nation of selfish and greedy people.

Capitalism mixed with democracy only encourages people to take advantage of each other getting more and more wealthy and as wealth grows so does power.  The poor suffer and the rich prosper.  You start with people like the founding fathers who believed the governement should have little control over society as evidenced by the Bill of Rights.

The founding fathers were libertarians(or at least I will assert so considering what I’ve been told about the originally profound affect Thomas Paine had on the people at that time).  Because of the laissez-faire economic theory made so popular at the time by Adam Smith, our little peaceful country has slowly evolved into the money and power hungry superpower it is now.  We were a libertarian people, but to protect our fortunes and the freedoms of those in control, the laws had to be made stricter and stricter.  We have gradually advanced linearly up the compass towards the authoritarian end.

We will continue to follow this direction until the plutocracy gains too much power that people cannot reverse it.  At this point the government will slowly evolve into an oligarchy and then into a tyranny as the political participants continue to compete themselves into the top spot.  Between the plutocracy and the tyranny the people’s hope lies only in their ability to revolt and change our economic theory where competition is unnecessary.  This is where the socialist step towards communism begins.

(Note: I wrote this as a two part response to peoples’ allegations that Communism is a bad theory in the Newgrounds political forum.  It was much longer to compensate for the relative ignorance of definitions of terms and the idea of a 2D political system than the linear one most are aware of.  I’ve eliminated most of the explanations seeing as this is generally a more intelligent audience.  I repost it here for general feedback.  I thought some of my claims and theories deserved a little more attention than the complete ignorance it was given in the flash geek corner of the internet.  So now I leave it to yall to determine its merits.  I look forward to the ensuing discussion.)

Comments:

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zilch Austria Posted on 07/21/2005 at 02:17 PM

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Okay, I’ll bite.  Theocrat, you give an example of cooperation from A Beautiful Mind:

If they compete, at best one guy gets one girl. If they cooperate, five guys get five girls.

More realistically, in premodern societies, competition often led to one guy getting five girls, and four guys getting no girls. The outlawing of polygamy leveled the field somewhat.

That which is best for the individual and has a positive or neutral effect on the community is best overall.

The problem with this bland avowal is that it’s not easy to define what’s “best for the individual”, and it’s notoriously difficult to define “a positive effect on the community”.

Ingolfson, you’re a traffic planner?  Did you send all these trucks from Germany to Italy that rumble past my apartment, or was that the EU?  Basically, I agree with your assessment of European socialist democracies- they are topheavy and maddeningly bureaucratic, but more humane and farsighted than America, especially with the current Administration.

Governing us tribal apes is an immensely complex balancing act.  There’s nothing natural or obvious about it, and it’s all but impossible to predict what form of government will produce what future.

If individuals are expected to work too much for the whole and incentive is not rewarded, you have what I saw behind the Iron Curtain- stagnation and hopelessness ("They pretend to pay us, we pretend to work").  If there is no responsibility for the whole, you have the tragedy of the commons and robber barons.  Striking a balance between cooperation and individualism is what makes human society possible.  Some societies do it better in some ways than others, but none is perfect- as Kant said, “Aus so krummem Holze, als woraus der Mensch gemacht ist, kann nichts ganz Gerades gezimmert werden”. (out of such crooked wood, as man is made, nothing completely straight can be built).  We are not like ants- culture is not built into us.  It is a art which must be taught, and learned.

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ingolfson Germany Posted on 07/21/2005 at 03:38 PM

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Ingolfson, you’re a traffic planner?  Did you send all these trucks from Germany to Italy that rumble past my apartment, or was that the EU?

Nah, I hust got my little ‘Dipl.-Ing.’-title three months ago. As it seems, I’m likely going to relocate to New Zealand (!) to find a good job, as there ain’t many in Germany right now.

Market forces at work…

We are not like ants- culture is not built into us.  It is a art which must be taught, and learned.

Yet - contrary to the ‘our bad primate-like base nature’-gist of some of the previous posts, behavioral scientists have by now found out that not only cooperation but even a sense of fairness and ‘justice’ is already in evidence among primates.

The case shown in these studies was that the primate would refuse a small reward (food) for some task if they had seen other primates of their group get a much more desirable treat for the same activity. Even though by refusing, they at first seemed to lose out totally.

I don’t think thats that fundamentally different from poor workers striking for higher wages because they see that the boss lives in plenty.

As (mostly) atheists here we should be the first to realize that ‘having evolved from animals’ is not a bad thing in itself.

Qoayn United States Posted on 07/21/2005 at 04:00 PM

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hell I’m inclined to think we havn’t ‘evolved from animals’ at all.. ..that would mean that we have somehow diverged in a positive manner from the mainstream vertabrates.. in fact we are probably
more ‘animal’ now than ever.

Communication has allowed us to further emphasise our animalstic nature to an extreme probably beyond
that of what evoloution would have allowed for alone.

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 07/21/2005 at 07:44 PM

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ingolfson has just touched on something else that occurred to me.  If, as most of you believe, that we have evolved from animals and animals live in relative utopia with one another, how did we evolve to have a free will?  Why did we not evolve like the animals did and have relative utopia with each other and nature?  Or are we still getting there?  Maybe we are not physically evolving anymore and are supposed to evolve intellectually and philosophically to make utopia part of our nature.  Could this mean that while the other species evolved they had a period of free will themselves until they figured out how to live in utopia with each other and their surroundings?

Any thoughts on these musings?  Oh, and just in case you have your hopes up that I might be beginning to think like yall, I’m only separating my logic from my belief.  I’m still a firm believer in the inerrancy of the Bible. tongue wink

warbi United States Posted on 07/21/2005 at 08:51 PM

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If, as most of you believe, that we have evolved from animals and animals live in relative utopia with one another, how did we evolve to have a free will?  Why did we not evolve like the animals did and have relative utopia with each other and nature?  Or are we still getting there?

Whoa, Theo, hold on there.  Animals have a free will as well.  Anyone who has tried training different dogs can tell that.  Who says that animals live in a relative utopia?  In fact, most animals have a mure brutal life in the wild than in captivity.  They also tend to live longer in captivity.
You will have to define what you mean by “utopia” as well.  Are you talking about living harmoniously with fellow man or living peacefully with the rest of nature?  The few hunting/gathering tribes that still remain manage to live well with their environment, but they still hunt and kill animals for sustenance (as well as plumage and dur for decoration).  Some would claim that many of our problems can be traced to technical knowledge outstripping our philosophy.  Not to worry- between climate change, the collapse of the food chain in the oceans, desertification, water shortages and peak oil, it is doubtful that any modern industrialized states will be left after the next 50 years.

Oh, and just in case you have your hopes up that I might be beginning to think like yall, I’m only separating my logic from my belief.  I’m still a firm believer in the inerrancy of the Bible.

We wouldn’t have it any otehr way, bro! wink

THEOCRAT United States Posted on 07/21/2005 at 10:57 PM

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Originally posted by warbi:
Animals have a free will as well.  Anyone who has tried training different dogs can tell that.  Who says that animals live in a relative utopia?

Animals don’t take more than they need.  Why are humans greedy if we evolved?  I’ve never heard of a lion killing off an entire zebra herd for bragging rights and then selling the carcases to starving relatives for their eternal subjection as slaves.

Originally posted by warbi:
You will have to define what you mean by “utopia? as well.  Are you talking about living harmoniously with fellow man or living peacefully with the rest of nature?

Both.  Doing what is in the best interest for ourselves and the rest of the world at the same time.  Not taking more than is needed and using everything given.  100% efficiency in all aspects of life.

Originally posted by warbi:
Not to worry- between climate change, the collapse of the food chain in the oceans, desertification, water shortages and peak oil, it is doubtful that any modern industrialized states will be left after the next 50 years.

That’s ironic.  That’s about the same time I expect Christ to return. smile

warbi United States Posted on 07/21/2005 at 11:50 PM

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Animals don’t take more than they need.

Maybe generally, but there is something called the Ratchet Effect.  It is generally used for predator-prey examples, but is valid for herbivores as well.  What it is about is population biology- basically a crash and burn cycle.  Say there is a huge amount of prey.  The predators begin eating and reproducing more quickly than normal.  Eventually the predator population exceeds the prey potential and the prey is all killed off resulting in a disasterous and quick crash in the predator population.  I realize that you are speaking more of individuals than species.  Here is a different example: the smallest dog we have is a bitch in all senses of the word.  She will eat her fill at the food bowl, but then instead of moving over and letting the others eat, she will snap and growl at them while lying in front of the food bowl.  Eventually she gets bored or distracted and moves away.  Living in a rural area I also know of instances where feral dog packs go around killing livestock and not eating it.

Both.  Doing what is in the best interest for ourselves and the rest of the world at the same time.  Not taking more than is needed and using everything given.  100% efficiency in all aspects of life.

That would be awesome, but I don’t know if it is realistically possible.  I guess that I have a pretty cynical view of human nature, but I just don’t see this happening.  I guess that is slightly possible that people might become altruistic toward each other, but the way modern industrialized nations are set-up calls for massive amounts of resources and I believe that societies, as opposed to the individual, will always put their species first.

That’s about the same time I expect Christ to return.

This isn’t the thread for it, but I am fairly interested in how you came to that conclusion.

zilch Austria Posted on 07/22/2005 at 03:59 AM

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Yet - contrary to the ‘our bad primate-like base nature’-gist of some of the previous posts, behavioral scientists have by now found out that not only cooperation but even a sense of fairness and ‘justice’ is already in evidence among primates.

Yep, ingolfson, we certainly have some genetic underpinnings for cooperation- otherwise culture would not be possible.  However, unlike ants, we have evolved societies with more and more of the rules outside our brains.  Chimps have gone the first tentative steps along the same road, with traditions of tool use passed on from generation to generation.  Lacking language, they won’t go any farther.

Animals don’t take more than they need.  Why are humans greedy if we evolved? 

Well, Theo, warbi basically gave you my answer as well, but I’ll just add that you should study up a bit on biology.  Non-human animals generally eat all they can get until satiety.  Humans have more scope for greed, and it can be more useful to them, because they lived in stratified societies where wealth often meant more offspring, at least for men.

If, as most of you believe, that we have evolved from animals and animals live in relative utopia with one another, how did we evolve to have a free will?

What utopia?  It’s a free-for-all out there.  If by utopia, you mean “the balance of nature”, remember that nature is “red in tooth and claw” as Tennyson had it, and differential reproductive success, not any striving for “balance”, is what gave us our biosphere.  And “free will” is another can of worms- tell me what you mean by it.  In my opinion, free will is simply choice, or the semblance of choice: running scenarios through your mind, and choosing one.  Like consciousness, there’s no place where you can draw a hard and fast line and say that it exists or doesn’t exist past this point- it evolved gradually, like everything else.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
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ingolfson Germany Posted on 07/22/2005 at 08:16 AM

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Non-human animals generally eat all they can get until satiety.  Humans have more scope for greed, and it can be more useful to them, because they lived in stratified societies where wealth often meant more offspring, at least for men.

Squirrels.

Greedy little fellows, hiding all the acorns (often to a degree that they have a lot more than they can use in winter, sometimes to the degree that they forget their stashes).

Rise up, acorn-eating animals of the world! Rise up and smash the sustencance-hoarding furry masters of your forest!!!

warbi United States Posted on 07/22/2005 at 09:30 AM

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Rise up, acorn-eating animals of the world! Rise up and smash the sustencance-hoarding furry masters of your forest!!!

At least I had swallowed my drink before I read that line!!! LOL

Thrashasaur Great Britain (UK) Posted on 08/10/2005 at 06:49 AM

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Communism in its purest form is the ultimate form of Government providing for all whilst also being fair and not allowing individuals to become treated better off than others. A form of Communism merged with a voting sytem to allow for public intervention would give both equal oppurtunity whilst also making sure that a single person is not able to horde power for their own welfair.

t-mouse Canada Posted on 12/05/2006 at 09:50 AM

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This is a comment inspired by KPatrickGlover.... the motivation to contribute is based on likes and dislikes....for example if being a plumer took no education and being a doctor obviously takes education...than the inspiration to be a doctor is not not clean shit for your hole life but to save lives. you get paid the same but one is more rewarding and protains to people over others....in north america there are musicians that make no money but they do it because they love it.... that is the motivation…

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