Here’s some interesting things from the Geneva Convention:

Article 3

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

Article 127

The High Contracting Parties undertake, in time of peace as in time of war, to disseminate the text of the present Convention as widely as possible in their respective countries, and, in particular, to include the study thereof in their programmes of military and, if possible, civil instruction, so that the principles thereof may become known to all their armed forces and to the entire population.

Any military or other authorities, who in time of war assume responsibilities in respect of prisoners of war, must possess the text of the Convention and be specially instructed as to its provisions.

Oops.  Maybe somebody should have told these folks that we actually signed this thing.

VernR nails it when he asks where were leaders when this was happening?  This was a breakdown from the top down.

Who knows, maybe this was all rewritten in the Patriot Act and we just haven’t caught it yet.

These men and women who committed these acts definitely need to be punished for this, but I have to ask, did it ever occur to anyone that most if not all of those who were “outraged” in the Arabic world simply would not give a damn if it had been Iraqis doing this to one another? I’ve noticed a disturbing trend on both sides of the Atlantic and it is that most simply do not care what happens within their own borders unless it is an act committed by someone who is a foreigner. Think on it for a moment, does anyone know or even care what a conflict diamond is? Does anyone give a damn about the Georgian conflict? I am an American, and I am proud of it, but I personally think its about FUCKING time Americans got off their fat, lazy asses and started caring about more that just what affects them. America’s self-centered, sense of apathy truly makes me sick some days.

did it ever occur to anyone that most if not all of those who were “outraged” in the Arabic world simply would not give a damn if it had been Iraqis doing this to one another?

So you are saying the Arab world should take it in stride if the US behaves likes Saddam’s regime?

I’ve read some blogs by troops who said that Arabs and Muslims were referred to as ‘sand-diggers’ and other racial slurs by their commanding officers. That there is a general view by Americans that Arabs and Muslims are racially inferior. Is this true?

I too was once a proud American.

Joined the Corps back in ‘79 - chest out to here - walking tall! I thought no one could top the USA as the champion of human rights, freedom, technology, invention, you name it - we were the best. What a poor dumb bastard I was!

If you ask me these assholes should be locked up for war crimes, including their bosses.

Paula: I think the term is “sand-niggers” and no not all of us think that way. You’ll probably find that the percentage of people who think like that is equal to the percentage of people who believe in a god. (cynicism prolly kickin’ in)

Fave quote…

Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world, than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled!
Neil Peart

May the 4th be with you!

First of all.. Arab nations are inferior to the USA, i mean.. look at the way they live! They live in caves and huts the way people used to live thousands of years ago. Is it lack of evolution? or just lack of knowledge of technology? In either case the Arab world is living in a primative state. (A good time in Iraq is firing your semi-automatic weapon in the streets). As far as those pictures are concernd.. Yes they are a breech of the Jineva Convention, and shocking to see.. BUT, Im sure this is just the tip of the iceberg and i belive far worse abuse is happening in prisoner camps all over Iraq. I agree in some kind of torture for Iraq soldiers. Lets not forget why theyre in these camps in the first place alright.

I just can’t believe that you think that this U.S. Military incident “could have been alot worst?” or “ How different is this from what Saddam is?” as if this type of shit is justifiable. Are you crazy? (or Whoever excuses this dog, cat, screwing farm animals sort of mentality) Well if you’re sick, government controlled (mentally), a homosexual, etc etc and base your life on the certain religious principles (think of the priests raping the young boys), then I guess this justifies why you think the way you do.  Homosexual acts when you’re STRAIGHT as an arrow IMPOSED on you? Photographed Nude? Pissed and Shitted on practically? Come on, NO EXCUSE. And of course this is happening in Amerikkan Prisons. The same country that stands on international TV as the socalled Righteous Western Civilization.  And these soldiers only represented and reflected what they learn and see back at home in Amerikka. Just as our children will and do.

I don’t care what country you are from. This behavior is CAUGHT on tape now. And the photos just explain that this is the same country that Columbine Kids go Rambo, Missing Children Reports are media glorified rather than solved, public lynchings to slaves PHOTOGRAPHED as well, tortured and extinguished the Native American race and put their great great great grandchildren in Public Housing, incarserate CHILDREN when violence is glorified through horror movies, cartoons, gladiator sports, etc. Presidents steal elections and STILL remain President only to start a “corporate” war, A government that assisted with your life savings 401k’s being GONE and unrecoverable only to eat, drink, invest with and party with the Enron “type” of Tyco(oons). Etc Etc Etc. Porn Industry on fire, when AIDS is so out of control. Reality TV’s promoting “Got Low Self Esteem?” Then get a facelift LIVE on ABC! or Get LipoSuction on Primetime CBS. Court shows, COP shows, Depressed Firemen beating the shit out of their coworkers, GangViolence, poor people JAILED if they don’t pay back a debt, failing school systems, and so much more.

And guess what? We live in Good Old Amerikka. Our Kids grow up and mock Good Ole Amerikka for 8 hours a day away from their parents when in school. Oh how this country time is Nearing to an End. EVERYTHING in life can be compared to a scale or balance.  What you put in WILL be reciprocated. It comes back harder because its unexpected from the bully or giver in the beginning. You can’t handle your own medicine, that’s why you dish it out.

The Media in Amerikka portrays Arabs, Blacks, Latinos as a people of a poverty inflicted and plain malice people. For all that have been done to the people of dark color, it’s true. They are poor, because unlike the Jews and Japanese, they have not received a DIME for what has been done. The African Slave Trade was the worst inhumane event of allllll time.  I am none of the above races and I have read, studied and researched. Although, money cannot recover the permanent scars of those people. (Look at the inner cities). But now the Government does not discriminate what race they target. If a person is not rich and/or pro goverment then, they’ll die the traditional average way. Cancer, screwed up health insurance, fatty diets, highway pollution from daily commutes, lead drinking water, sexually transmitted diseases with no cure yet sex is natural and must happen in order to reproduce. (Before abortions, remember that thing they call reproduction. The same process that made us)
September 11th had taken place yes. And possibly with our own Government’s involvement to excuse Marshall Law, Globalization, One World Government, Cloning, Legal Slavery, Mutilation, Civilian Extortion, etc.

So for those that continue to justify behaviors like this.....All I can say is if you have children, I dare you to teach them to live and learn like this. Nude, Humiliated, Tortured, Pissed on, Forced to perform gay acts, when you reproduce Life as a straight person, etc.

There is NO excuse.

Do I wish we were all on one big island where all races were butt naked having a party? Not at all. We can segregate as long as we respect each other for our differences, we can integrate as long as we respect each other for our original cultures, we can differentiate as long we respect. Just respect, for none of us have NOTHING to do with how this race got here or this religion got there.  Yet, the Amerikkan government and scientists are trying to control that too.

Sincerely,

Unfortunately, Born in the U.S.A. instead of Pluto

***presently building a Moving Truck prototype that can fly instead of drive, to the next fuckkin planet***

USA!
USA!
USA!

For any of you out there that are actually shocked to think that any POW’s are mistreated… wake up.  Is it right, is it fair?  Just because someone believes in the tooth fairy does not make it real (??) There are bad actors and bad movies in hollywood but that does not stop the cry of our public for more! 

Similar acts are carried out on the typical college campus in the name of hazing. 

this is all political, an act of desperation of left wing radicals, why else would there be entry/comment about this and not about the Real American Hero Pat Tillman along with every other man and woman that his given their lives in war.

God Bless America! and Americana! and Tex-Mex!

My, I’m surprised at you Randall. This seems like an unusual response from you. Still, you want an entry about the “Real American Hero Pat Tillman” instead? Sure, I can whip up an article about him if you like.

Maybe randork would like this quote from Tillman’s little Bro…

“Pat isn’t with God, he’s fucking dead. He wasn’t religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he’s fucking dead.’’

Ingolfson

I’ll have to hip you to some “military parlance” (Air Force anyway).  In the USAF, an admonishment is essentially an administrative slap on the wrist.  It’s a thing that can disappear after a period of time if you act like a good boy.  A reprimand is worse, though it’s still only administrative.  That might not sound like a big deal, but losing rank (translation $$$$$) can also be administrative.

Sometimes civilians flip out over military usages of certain words.  The term arrest, as in you are under arrest has a totally different meaning in the USAF.  If you arrest someone in the USAF, you limit their ability to move geographically (like house arrest or restriction to base).  When a USAF cop wants to haul you in, he doesn’t arrest you, he apprehends you (not that I know that from experience...well there were a couple of little misunderstandings...)

Eric

I haven’t heard you on Air America yet….wazzup wid dat???  At least you’re an American citizen (what’s up with those green card holding Brits talking smack?)

You said:

You’re right, I’m sure that the administration that is trying to privatize every aspect of America from education to social security has nothing to do with hiring private mercenaries who are not answerable to the military chain of command.

Having been in the military for the entire decades of the nineteen hundred and eighties and nineteen hundred and nineties, I’ll give you an observation:

During the 1980s almost all jobs were performed by DOD military and DOD civilians.  During the 1990s there was a massive push to privatize as the only way for the military to accomplish its numerous obligations. Privatization has been going on hot and heavy for the last 10 years.  At a base near my house, all in shop fighter aircraft maintenance functions (from armament systems to jet engines) are performed by civilian contractors (99.percent of whom are ex-GIs).

Look up the term A76 Study (outsourcing) or Federal Activities Inventory Reform (FAIR) Act.  Clinton signed the FAIR Act and as the name implies, it tasked all government agencies to identify jobs that could be done by outsourcing to the private sector.  I heard the term A76 study many, many years before I ever heard of Dubya.  I wouldn’t want the truth to get in the way of your maniacal dislike for Bush, so if it makes you feel comfortable, please continue.

aMErican at May 4, 2004 03:23 PM

I agree in some kind of torture for Iraq soldiers. Lets not forget why theyre in these camps in the first place alright.

You appall me. Please read my post of May 3, 2004 11:26 PM particularly Article 0829 regarding threatment of prisoners of war. We are not about torture. Why were these prisoners in Abu Graib? Many of them were picked up on random sweeps without probable cause. In other words, they were picked up because they were Iraqis walking around on the street.

Oh by the way, This stuff isn’t limited to Abu Graib. Prisoner abuse is systemic.

randall at May 4, 2004 05:33 PM

Similar acts are carried out on the typical college campus in the name of hazing.

this is all political, an act of desperation of left wing radicals, why else would there be entry/comment about this and not about the Real American Hero Pat Tillman along with every other man and woman that his given their lives in war.

Hazing on a college campus? Here are some quotes from Seymore Hersh’s article in the New Yorker

Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added—“detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.” Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their “extremely sensitive nature.”

...

The photographs tell it all. In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates.

...

Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.

Typical college campus? Which ones, specifically.

This thread is about prisoner abuse generating Arab anger, and for once it is pretty much on subject.

Act of desperation? Left wing radicals? Define your terms.

Randell........you are freaking creep and I only wish you were in one of those “camps” so you could get butt raped and broom handles stuck up your rear!!!!!  But hey you would like it im sure!!!!!!! “USA USA USA”........yeah...right you freak!!! Dont be the loudest screamer when the Iranians come back for you....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! You along with them freaks in the military all deserve the firing squad......."USA USA USA”....scream it loud now you freak!!!!!!!

> Ingolfson
> I’ll have to hip you to some “military parlance”

No, you don’t. Thanks a lot.

> an admonishment is essentially an
> administrative slap on the wrist.
> It’s a thing that can disappear after a period
> of time if you act like a good boy. A reprimand
> is worse, though it’s still only administrative.

Just what I have been saying. Just a little tut-tutting instead of serious action. Mind, I don’t care about people only incidentially involved. What counts is what happens to those guys who actually did the torture - and what happens to those above them in their chain of command. I’ll base my judgement on that.

American:

> First of all.. Arab nations are inferior to
> the USA, i mean.. look at the way they live!
> They live in caves and huts the way people
> used to live thousands of years ago.

Maybe so. But your next sentence shows that you don’t mean CULTURE. You are of the opinion that Arabs are inferior as human beings:

> Is it lack of evolution? or just lack of
> knowledge of technology?

If you knew any history at all, you will find that the first higher civilizations of this planet were in Mesopotamia. Iraq for you. Arabs had their periods of historical glory, just as Caucasians had their periods of barabarism.

> A good time in Iraq is firing your semi-
> automatic weapon in the streets

The same goes for many Texans, I’m told.

> BUT, Im sure this is just the tip of the
> iceberg and i belive far worse abuse is
> happening in prisoner camps all over Iraq. I agree in some kind of torture for Iraq soldiers.

Sounds like you couldn’t wait to join in. Torture is for cowards and the morally bankrupt.

Well, it seems that both the ‘Don’t be so hard on them’-apologists and the ‘USA is a piece of shit’-crowd has found this thread at last.

Go away. Until you came, we had a serious *discussion* about this. Different *opinions* instead of different smears.

One of the primary solutions that I’m hearing bantered around the mass media is the lowering the ratio of detainees to guards at these prisons.  They believe this was a contributing factor.

Has anyone seen some numbers on this one?

One the contractor note this raises concerns in other areas as well.

With soldiers faced with life and death they are trained to respond to orders without much question.  It seems that having too many contractors in key positions could severely damper command and control.

American - when was the last time you were in an Arab nation?  I know some wonderful people there that would love to meet you.

Randall - This isn’t some propaganda parlor trick.  We’re talking about human beings here.  Both the right and the left have been trying to spin it to best of their advantage.

You can spin, pray, smear, yell, curse and cry all day and at the end of the day you will be one day further from the solution.

Well MildBill,

You will never rid me of my maniacal dislike of Bush, I can’t even watch him on TV smirking and sniggering his way through some ‘folksy’ speech without wanting to shoot out the tube Elvis style.

Now technically I never accused Bush of being the first to privatize the military, and you are right that Clinton started it, but think of it like NAFTA. Sure Clinton signed it (which I think was the real crime committed in his administration (please hold your Vince Foster theories until the end)) and I will blame Clinton for the exodus he ushered in with that deplorable piece of legislation. But when did America really start hemmoraging jobs (http://www.bls.gov/mls)(http://www.nber.org/cycles/november2001/)? Do you suppose that the businesses that have gotten so fat under this administration conspired to make their scion look bad by moving all the jobs overseas or was it because this administration made it easier and more attractive for them to do so? Same with the military contractors, Clinton may have opened the door but Bush broke it off it’s hinges, hooked a chain to the door frame, and tore the front of the house down.

Bush is a lying smarmy skunk and if ever there was a hater of Bush it is certainly me but I won’t blame him for everything… Clinton IS the jackass that gave the monkey a loaded pistol.

MildBill

Outsourcing government jobs predates 1985. The agency that I worked for (71 to 85) ran the Polaris Missile Facility, Atlantic and later the Stragic Weapons Facilities on both coasts. The project that I worked on (training) obtained some pre PC services from POMFLANT. I remember that their IT folks had to go through an A76 competition sometime in the 80-85 time frame. I am pretty sure that A76 is a Reagan initiative. I suspect that it came out of the Grace commision report on improving government, honchoed by W. R. ‘asbestos’ Grace. I plead ignorant on FAIR.

Eric

I share your dislike of the President’s smug smirks--pause, raise head, face camera, smirk (Stage direction: American Flag in background.) My distaste is visceral

sorry,

my entry was mostly schtick,,,but hey les, i promise i did not get the frat idea from limbaugh. i am not sure when he mentioned it, but he probably got it from reading my post on this site.  i have been told he has used my stuff before!

now on a serious note.

i do think it is wrong to mistreat any human being.  I think it is wrong for the abuse that took place in this case in Iraq, the abuse that takes place in prision everyday, the abuse that does take place the avg. college campus, the abuse that takes place in many homes across america, and the mental abuse that takes place in some pulpits in our nations churches.

But I also think it is wrong to make this Iraq thing a political issue.  I will not state my reasons why because I am sure most of you have heard similar arguments elsewhere.

What these soldiers did in Iraq was the very thing we went there to stop.  So yes its wrong.  and i apologize for making anyone think I do not care about humans. or liberals.

I would be most amused at the idea of Rush reading SEB, though I suspect he’d be ranting about it if he had.

This “Iraq-thing” was a political issue long before the war ever started so it’s probably a bit late to worry about that happening.

Eric

I don’t mean to alter your opinion; I just don’t want that vein that pulses in your forehead whenever you hear the name Bush (sorry) mentioned, to explode!  I just wanted to let you know that all these things didn’t start with Bush (damn I did it again) nor will they end with him.

Clinton IS the jackass that gave the monkey a loaded pistol.

That quote is definitely the camel that breaks the back of the horse of a different color!

Do you suppose that the businesses that have gotten so fat under this administration conspired to make their scion look bad by moving all the jobs overseas or was it because this administration made it easier and more attractive for them to do so?

I believe the convention of evil, pro-Bush businessmen was held right after the Jews planning the WTC attack convention, but before the Black Helicopter convention.  I’m told the convention of evil generals planning world domination has been rescheduled because it conflicted with a Jessica Simpson concert (even evil generals dig her!).

Ingolffson

A little too much caffeine bro?  I was just trying to explain military terminologies are sometimes ambiguous.  Here’s a good example:

Everyone has heard of the $1500 toilet seat fiasco (I don’t recall the exact amount).

That all started when some reporter read an acquisition document called a Work Breakdown Structure (WBS) for the P3 Orion aircraft.  The WBS breaks down a major system to component levels to make it easier to manage; it’s like a hierarchical tree.

The WBS had the following listing:

Seat, Toilet

Your statement about Clinton was very clear--I was just trying to trace back, as best I could, to the beginnings of outsourcing. As I said I don’t know anything about FAIR. The subject never crossed my desk while I was a GS/GM government employee.

Ah the WBS--knew them well and loved them (when I wasn’t frustrated).

Mild Bill:

> Ingolfson

> A little too much caffeine bro?

Too little, actually. It was late and I was in a bad mood. Sorry.

If this is the kind of thing that has been hidden from the world (in a place where there are supposedly/hopefully UN observers) what about a place like Guantanamo bay, where not even Amnesty International has been given access to ensure that the unfairly held prisoners there are being treated fairly? It must be much worse than these pictures from Iraq if the US is so scared to let anyone into G. Bay.

Is this the liberation that US was talking about? is this the democracy they want to spread around the world? All third world countries have dictatorship regimes but when such thing comes from a super (democratic) power it is a big difference. Thanks God for revealing the real face of such (superpower) and I believe the hidden abuses are much more than what we have seen.

The prison abuse disclosures just get worse. Check out Mistreatment of Prisoners Is Called Routine in U.S. in today’s New York Times

The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time.

The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country’s criminal justice system.

Mr. McCotter, 63, is director of business development for Management & Training Corporation, a Utah-based firm that says it is the third-largest private prison company, operating 13 prisons. In 2003, the company’s operation of the Santa Fe jail was criticized by the Justice Department and the New Mexico Department of Corrections for unsafe conditions and lack of medical care for inmates. No further action was taken

later

When Mr. Ashcroft announced the appointment of the team to restore Iraq’s criminal justice system last year, including Mr. McCotter, he said, “Now all Iraqis can taste liberty in their native land, and we will help make that freedom permanent by assisting them to establish an equitable criminal justice system based on the rule of law and standards of basic human rights.”

Isn’t this rich? Aren’t we just swell?
Fume, throw things. I’m going to the gym.