This is a terrible incident, but I place very little credence in the outrage in the Arab world. If they were truly outraged by such occurances, they would have said something when Saddam was doing things far worse than this, or when such things occur in any Arab dictatorship. I think they are just outraged because it was Americans instead of Arabs doing this particular crime.

1.  Appalling incidents of this sort have occured in the military long before the Bush Administration.  Wasn’t Kerry complaining about what war criminals our troops were in Nam, too? (As I recall, Dubya wasn’t anywhere near there. )

2.  From what I read of conditions in most prisons in the Arab world (hell, in most of the world), the (dreadful) stuff we saw in those pics is by no means beyond the Pale.  Not that we don’t want to be any better than the Saudi, Iranian, Jordanian, or Syrian prison system, but anyone who’s using this to show what particular barbarians the Americans are is blowing smoke out of some oriface.

I’m by no means, I hope, sounding like I’m excusing those responsble for these awful actions, and we owe it to our principles to stamp them out when they happen.  But to paint this as “what we get when a man who sees foreign policy solely in terms of “good” and “evil” is handed the Presidency by judicial fiat” seems a bit simplistic.

> If they were truly outraged by such occurances,
> they would have said something when Saddam was
> doing things far worse than this

As for the Iraqis at least, they would have ended up in that same prison if they had conmplained. The US gave them the freedom to protest such abuses - and now has to to deal with it.

Though I’ll assent that its a ‘lightning-rod’-effect. A whole LOTTA lightning, I’m fearing.

Les, until I see something that makes me change my mind, I don’t think something like this is endemic in the US army. I do fear however, that it isn’t all that rare in prisons themselves, neither in Iraq nor in the US or elsewhere.

I must say I’m surprised at the responses I’ve seen here thus far.  As a veteran of the Gulf War it shamed me deeply to see those photos.

I agree there is probably a little more backlash in the Arab media for this as it is America that has violated the Geneva convention this time.  It is still, however, justified outrage.

The only real difference now is that they don’t need to be in fear of being killed for speaking out. (I hope.)

Dictactorships made these things public to serve as an example to others.

Just imagine if we had gone and picked up USA Today and found pictures like those with US soldiers in Iraq?  Would we stop to consider how this is probably an isolated incident with a few of their troops getting carried away?

As a side note, how can we have a war on terrorism with the vast majority of every social scientist saying that its byproduct will be terrorists?

This isn’t the Superfriends where ‘good’ vs. ‘evil’ all the time.  This is the real world and requires realistic solutions.

Valhalla, I’m guessing that much was said during Hussien’s administration of Iraq.  But why would we, here in the west, have heard what the arab world had to say about him?  Would that have been ‘newsworthy’ prior to our invasion?  Are any American papers polling the Liberians about their feelings toward Charles Taylor, or tallying approval ratings for Kim Jong Il in North Korea?  If they are, I’m afraid I haven’t seen them reported here, and it’s not like I haven’t been looking.  And, for the record, Osama Bin Laden was pretty pissed at Saddam.  I think the term “treacherous infidel” was tossed around quite a bit.

As far as the press coverage of this story goes, I’ve read the outraged statements of the Arab people—Oh, let me qualify that, it’s been the same 3 quotes from the same 3 arabs reprinted in the LA Times, Al Jazeera Online, CNN Online, and a slew of different blogs.  I assume the worldwide news media will eventually find a few other Iraqis to quote.  But I think this tells you more about the process (and failures) of news gathering than it does public opinion.

As for the photos—The images really disturbed be, and it’s not just the cruelty implied in them, because we’re supposed to accept cruelty in wartime (er, ‘liberation’-time).  It’s the Americanness of them- the frat style hazing, the goofy grins on the kids, the great fun of having your picture taken next to some humiliated pledge.
Only these aren’t pledges, and all this is happening at gunpoint.  In the name of every citizen of the US of A.  And these ‘kids’- army, or mercenaries- are being praised by their superiors for extracting information from prisoners in record time.  One of the accused claims he was never given a copy of the Geneva Conventions to read prior to his service as an interrogator, as if that would excuse him from forcing one prisoner to give another a blowjob in front of cheering GIs.  Swell. 
And these pictures were taken LAST YEAR.  So, assumably, this behavior has gone on unabated ever since. I don’t care if these interrogators are just ‘a few bad apples’; they put our troops and the coalition forces in even greater risk every time they pull this shit.  They need to be yanked out and prosecuted, pronto, and very publicly so.
Ugh, this absurd war…

The Army brought charges about a month ago. 60 Minutes II sat on this story for two weeks until it began to play elsewhere.

Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast—given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.

Some of the guards were involved in preparing the prisoners for interrogation. The piece listed too few guards, inadequate training, poor leadership, and positive feedback from the interrogators as factors contributing to the incident. All the same, officers are supposed to manage by walking about—it should not have happened.

1) We have “civilian contractors” (read mercenaries) running the interrogations, running the prisons, and who knows what else and they are NOT subject to military law. Whos bright idea was that (*cough* - BUSH!). They make on average three times what an enlisted man makes, have no accountability to the military, and hide behind the benign label contractor as if they are teachers or health care workers.

2) In a group of men, and now women, as large as that in the U.S. military there are bound to be a subset of sadistic deviants and when pack mentality kicks in I am sure that number grows. Taken as individuals I doubt that half of those charged would have done anything on their own. In no way do I condone or excuse their actions but I am trying to give their aberrant behavior the benefit of the doubt.

3) If you think that this does not go on during every major conflict you are deluding yourself. These kids (for the most part) have been given guns and told that they can kill with impunity, next to murder what is a little rape or assault and battery? And if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar you can always plead ignorance, right?

I entered the Navy in 1988 and still remember the classes where we were taught how to treat prisoners of war per the Geneva Convention and EVEN if they missed that class, what about basic human decency? The few who did this deserve no less than a full courts martial and I would like to see them serve their time in Guantanamo. The contractor that raped the teenage boy should be sent back to America in chains and incarcerated immediately if we are to have any credibility left. So many people who supported this ill conceived Iraq war like to think that we have god on our side… is this kind of behavior really christian? Is this really how those with moral authority behave?

It really makes me angry when this kind of shit happens.

Even the Brits appears to be getting in on the act. But, according to the BBC,, these photos may have been faked.

Whatever is true, anyone who inflicts or allows this to be kept quiet is scum. This is no time for the Nuremberg Defence.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if the pictures are fake or the real thing. I don’t know if the US has any reputation left to damage as far as the people in the Middle East are concerned, but the very fact that there is a comparison between Saddam’s regime and the US occupying force is damning. It’s disquieting - to say the least - to contemplate how effective these pictures may prove in the hands of recruiters for extremist groups.

Faked or not, the photos are what grabbed media attention. The other stuff that was going on may well have gone on unnoticed without the pics.

The contractors involved are
[list]
[*]CACI, International (VA) - Intelligence Support (We used to call this outfit Captains and Commanders, Inc.)
[*]Titan Group (San Diego) - Translators
[/list]

General Myers, appearing on two of this mornings talk shows, said that the Arab world should judge us on how we resolve this as opposed to what Sadam would have done in like circumstances. Well good luck with that one.

I felt a bit sorry for him when he was asked why the New Yorker was citing a study that he had requested, hadn’t yet reviewed himself. “I haven’t seen it yet,“ just didn’t serve.

Ingolfson at May 1, 2004 05:43 PM

Les, until I see something that makes me change my mind, I don’t think something like this is endemic in the US army. I do fear however, that it isn’t all that rare in prisons themselves, neither in Iraq nor in the US or elsewhere.

To his credit, Gen. Myers initiated a comprehensive review of prisoner handling as soon as this flap started.

From what I’ve been able to ascertain 60 Minutes II sat on this story for up to two weeks (depending on source) at the request of the government so that they could get their shit together.

Don’t judge us by what we do, judge us by what we say.

> General Myers, appearing on two of this
> mornings talk shows, said that the Arab world
> should judge us on how we resolve this as
> opposed to what Sadam would have done in like
> circumstances. Well good luck with that one.

From what I just read on several news pages(yahoo news for example), the administration/the military is apparently planning to let those guys off with a written reprimand and possibly dishonorable discharges.

*Scoff*. So thats all? Slap on the wrist and off you go? Great.

Mind, they could probably hang them tomorrow in a Baghdad square and it wouldn’t help. The damage is done. But I think a court martial and prison sentences should be the absolute minimum.

Lets see how that will all play out in the end. Not good I fear. Not good.

Ingolfson

I read that some of the people were reprimanded.  It sounded like it was the supervisors that weren’t directly involved.  I personally think they may have been derelict in duty, which is a court martial offense, but who knows.  Unlike in the civilian world (Ken Lay and Bernie Evers come to mind)  “I didn’t know what the people under me were doing” is not a defense!  Incompetence is a crime in the miliatry.

The article I read said that 6 people were still facing court martial.  That probably includes the rocket scientists who were clever enough to film their own crimes.  (aka those young kids with guns Eric talks about, that look like they graduate from high school with me in the class of ‘78!)

For your info, the only way to receive a dishonorable discharge is as a result of a General Court Martial… reserved for the worst criminal offenses.  I’ve never heard of someone getting a dishonorable discharge with no jail time.  I’ve only been involved in Special Courts Martial (one level below General) and even then everyone got some jail time.

Good to see Eric is still around blaming Bush for everything from the Gulf of Tonkin incident to secretly colluding with the North Koreans during the Korean War (though he was only a toddler).

Now there’s a name we’ve not seen in awhile! In Eric’s defense, I was blaming Bush for this as well in my initial entry. While ***Dave rightly points out that this isn’t unique to this particular war, I don’t think Bush’s black and white approach to foreign policy helps the situation a

I’ve also heard that the reprimands were for higher ups, the soldiers involved are still headed for courts-martial from what I’ve read.

Hmmm. Don’t hink I ever connected Dubya to the Gulf of Tonkin but if there is any SECRET collusion going on with the Koreans You can bet the Bush Administration is a) probably involved and b) will do everything in it’s power to protect their secret dealings by citing National Security. So you don’t agree that these private mercenaries that are getting paid with taxpayer money being funneled into companies like Halliburton who benefitted from no bid contracts has NOTHING to do with Bush? You’re right, I’m sure that the administration that is trying to privatize every aspect of America from education to social security has nothing to do with hiring private mercenaries who are not answerable to the military chain of command.

Just where does the buck stop in this administration?

My bad about the reprimand issue. I can’t find the original article anymore on yahoo to see if I simply mis-read, of if that one could really be interpreted as meaning that the main ‘perps’ were being reprimanded only.

My point still stands, though. What the US does not want now is people shaking their heads about reprimands being issued. That sounds too much like the slap on the wrist I mentioned.

At the moment they’re saying 6 reprimanded and a 7th was admonished. That’ll learn ‘em!

Nice try Spocko, but first you will have to explain what “admonished” means to 50% of the population

> you will have to explain what “admonished” means

I bet it’s something compassionately conservative.

I can sleep soundly tonight knowing this issue has been taken care of:

“President Bush called Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld before a campaign trip Monday and urged him to make sure that U.S. soldiers involved in the abuse are punished, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.“

If they think this is was only seven people they are sadly mistaken.  I suspect that some others at least had knowledge of what was going on.

Weren’t there reports of this type of activity from the first prisoner released from this facility?

Before their courts martial they should all receive some bogus copies of orders reassigning them to Iraq.  Let them stew in that for a couple of days.

What should be the punishment for the companies the contractors worked for?

The Army General Janis Karpanski is effectively out of a job.

When you train a soldier to kill people, you tend to forget what that training and conditioning does.  You can’t expect people to position themselves in the line of fire, take aim on people they otherwise would have no reason to hate, kill them dead, and NOT expect those people to submerge a bit of their evolved sense of humanity.

None of the people who are ultimately responsible for this war will ever take responsibility, and none of them will ever be in the position these soldiers are.  These men are doing a job they were trained and conditioned to do, and unfortunately, in that environment, shit happens. 

It’s alright to sitback and armchair quarterback the situation from a nice safe computer, but it’s not a fair assessment.  There are attrocities committed in wars by the military personnel of every nation.  Thankfully, they are a minority, but it does happen.

Sure, it would be nice if our soldiers acted the way we want our kids to act(i.e. better at someone else’s house than they act at home).  But the fact is that when we select a dog for guarding our homes, we choose rottweilers and mastiffs and pit bulls, not pomeranians or toy poodles.  We shouldn’t be surprised when someone gets bitten, if proper care isn’t taken.

Could this have been prevented?  Probably, with the right planning, organization, rotation, and implementation.  Was that done?  Nope, that really isn’t W’s strong point.  Who do you blame?  Well, you don’t really want to hear my thoughts on that.

Bailiff, whack his pee-pee!

Who do you blame? Well, you don’t really want to hear my thoughts on that.

Actually, Skippy, I do.

I can and do expect more from soldiers in uniform. 

These are not some barbaric pitbulls that we have trained to point and shoot.  These are American men and women from all walks of life that know better.

You’re right Skippy, attrocities happen in every war…and in every war we should point them out and do our best from repeating the same mistakes.

Could it have been prevented:  Definitely!

Who do you blame?  Where does the buck stop on the chain-of-command?

Posted by Eric Paulsen at May 1, 2004 07:15 PM

1) We have “civilian contractors” (read mercenaries) running the interrogations, running the prisons, and who knows what else and they are NOT subject to military law. Whos bright idea was that (*cough* - BUSH!). They make on average three times what an enlisted man makes, have no accountability to the military, and hide behind the benign label contractor as if they are teachers or health care workers.

I’m not so sure about the contractors at the prison not being under military law. I don’t know where to begin looking for Army regs, but I would think that they be similar to U.S. Navy Regulations 1990 Here are a couple of articles that may apply.

0809. Persons Found Under Incriminating
Circumstances.

1. The commanding officer shall keep under restraint or surveillance, as necessary, any person not in the armed services of the United States who is found under incriminating or irregular circumstarices within the command, and shall immediately initiate an investigation.

.....

3. lf the investigation indicates that such person has committed or attempted to commit an offense punishable under the authority of the commanding ofiicer, the latter shall take such action as he or she deems necessary.

4. If the investigation indicates that such person is a fugitive from justice, & has committed or attempted to commit an offense which requires actions beyond the authority of the commanding officer, the latter shall, at the first opportunity, deliver such person, together with a statement of the circumstances, to the proper civil authorities.

5. In all cases under paragraph 4 of this article, a report shall be made promptly to the Chief of Naval Operations or the Commandant of the Marine Corps, as appropriate.

0829. Prisoners of War.

On taking or receiving prisoners of war, the commanding officer shall ensure that such prisoners are treated with humanity; that their personal property is preserved and protected; that they are allowed the use of such of their effects as may be necessary for their health; that they are supplied with proper rations; that they are properly guarded and deprived of all means of escape and revolt; and that the applicable provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions relative to the treatment of prisoners of war are followed.

‘Such action as deemed necessary’ might be to bring charges under the UCMJ. If not, one hopes that their is some federal law so that a C.O. could
proceed under article 4.

Are the prisoners POWs or do they fall under that new category invented by the DOD? If the latter, is there a chargeable crime. I sure don’t know.

Where the heck were the junior officers and field grade officers who should have prevented this from ever happening?