Perhaps an Alternative View Would do?

Posted by Webs on Friday, May 04, 2007 at 05:52 PM. Read 4951 times. Tags: , ,
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Apparently the 9/11 conspiracy movement is still going strong.  It’s too bad, cause those that waste their time on this pet subject could really do a lot of great things if they devoted as much time and energy to anything else.  But the reason why conspiracy theories always have a decent movement attached to them is simple, conspiracy theories attempt to explain the seemingly unexplainable.  That and they also play with our emotions.

Dangerously long post ahead…

After a tragic and horrific event such as 9/11 happens people become very emotional and their minds start racing a mile a minute to explain what happened.  We want answers and we want to seek the truth.  So much so, that when a complex theory that attempts to explain everything comes along, it looks as tasty to our brain as a chocolate cake to a fat kid.

If you watch 9/11 conspiracy films, and I have seen most all of them, they all follow the same pattern:

  1. First they start off with a statement of the event that happened and how they grieve for the loss as well.  And will usually follow this up with an American flag and how as citizens it’s our right to have answers and to seek them.
  2. Then you get the line, “We compiled the evidence you decide”.  Well hell, this is wonderful right?  They are unbiased and leave the decision making up to us.  That’s how it should be.
  3. Then comes the dramatic music and the soft spoken narration, which is usually a female voice that has an appealing quality to it.
  4. Followed by loads of facts BS.

It’s all a bunch of BS to get you to buy into someone else’s pet theory.  To me it’s nothing more than good advertising and knowing how to play to your audience.  But in some cases it’s just downright criminal.  Take the article linked right before this sentence, Popular Mechanics does an excellent job explaining the myths of 9/11.

But the one piece of info that hit me the hardest was this:

Puffs Of Dust
CLAIM: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: “The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions.” Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying “there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse.” The article continues, “Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures.”

FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process “pancaking,” and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air--along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse--was ejected with enormous energy. “When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it’s going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window,” NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, “but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception.”

Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. “I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building,” he tells PM. “I only said that that’s what it looked like.”

Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. “I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line.” But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: “The paymaster of Romero’s research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement.” Romero responds: “Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years.”

The poor guy gets mis-quoted and now his reputation is on the line.  I have read other accounts of the same guy not giving out quotes anymore, even to defend himself, cause the conspirators take it and use it to their advantage.  Not caring for the fact they are ruining Romero’s career.  He is somewhat of an outcast now in his field for the whole fiasco, or at least he was as of 05.

Which is why I have disgust and udder disdain for conspiracy theories.  They have and do ruin careers of scientists and good people.  And it’s just a shame because it means there will be less and less individuals who will be willing to take on these crackpot theories in the future for fear of having a ruined career.

But you don’t have to take my word for it… It’s a conspiracy, the government sank the Titanic

Or there is always this gem… Despite the sarcasm, Maddox makes an excellent point.  If the US gov or some faction of the US gov had no problem killing 3000 people and getting away with it.  How is it possible they could let a college student uncover the truth?  When all they would have to do is shut him up.

Or this funny one, ”Dont be Fooled, What Seems Simple is Usually a Complicated Conspiracy.”

But if you got time to kill here is a link to the PBS show Democracy Now where there was a debate between the Editor-in-Chief of Popular Mechanics magazine, the Editor of Debunking 9/11 Myths (A book put out by Popular Mechanics) and the creator and write of the Loose Change “Documentary” with the researcher for this “Documentary”.

If you choose not to watch I can spare you the details.  The Loose Change guys come off as pompous arrogant assholes that lose their “cool” when their ideas are challenged.  They were scoffing at nearly every counter-point the Popular Mechanics guys offered and even laughed at a couple points as well.  The Popular Mechanics guys obviously not only knew what they were talking about, but were very respectful and handled themselves and the content well.

What I really want to do with this post is hopefully open some eyes into the world of conspiracy theories, specifically 9/11.  It’s hard to let go of them, I understand this well, but in the end conspiracy theories are a waste of time.  Conspirators claim to be no experts, but rather just a sort of journalist presenting evidence.  But if this is the case, why do conspiracy theories leave out evidence, misquote experts, dismiss evidence presented by experts, and just flat out lie?  If their theories are as strong as they claim then there is no need for this right?

Feel free to comment on your beliefs, I would be interested to hear them…

Comments:

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Last_Hussar United Kingdom Posted on 05/04/2007 at 10:13 PM

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I can only assume you are short of traffic, and are trying to drum up posts, even trolls.

What will happen is a load of people will show up screaming that Pop. Mech is in the pay of the government. I’ve seen plenty of sites with experts in the field explain all the physics, and loads of trolls make fools of themselves. This is the problem if people actually think they kave rights, and politicians cave in. We end up not being able to distinguish between ‘everyone is born equal’ and ‘everybody has equal rights for their views on ‘x’ to be taken seriously.’ Its creationism all over again- you will get similar arguements- Think about what happens when a YEC is confronted by Carbon dating. Same will happen here.

But while we’re waiting this needs answers!

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“Pickles are evil”
- K Patrick Glover, 10 June 2007

Moloch United States Posted on 05/04/2007 at 11:52 PM

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Hum, what? Trolls?

Why can’t people understand that steel heated to 1500*f does not need to melt or have explosives to buckle and collapse under a few thousand tons of weight?

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Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil’s pawn. Alone among God’s primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home, and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death.

Les United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 12:19 AM

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Actually, LH, I’m quite proud of Webs. When he first showed up he was quite into the 9/11 conspiracy theories. The fact that he authored this entry gives one hope for others of a similar mind.

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When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn’t know.
-- Mark Twain

Hank Fox United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 03:04 AM

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The Bush White House screws up everything they touch.

I imagine that if they HAD done 9/11, by now there would be a dozen insiders spilling their guts on international TV.

zilch Austria Posted on 05/05/2007 at 06:18 AM

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I’ll second Les.  Good work, Webs.

Hussar, that link is hilarious- and unfortunately a pretty accurate analogy.

Why are people attracted to conspiracy theories?  I don’t know, but I suspect part of it is a disaffection with the powers that be and a desire to find patterns that lead to hidden truths.  People often subscribe to more than one such belief- for instance, many Lords’ Witnesses (the Bible Code guys who have predicted the nuclear destruction of New York around fourteen times now) also swallow the 9/11 conspiracy crap.  Of course, they say that the ultimate lever-puller, behind Bush & Co, is Satan.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 06:56 AM

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There are people who are working a learning curve on conspiracy theories, like Webs - he isn’t going to stay convinced for long of any theory that isn’t factual.  And there are nuts who drop in and paste in a long rant, and then disappear.  We’ll probably see some of those.  There is absolutely no point in arguing with them.

Last_Hussar United Kingdom Posted on 05/05/2007 at 09:28 AM

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unfortunately a pretty accurate analogy

The funniest bit is the comments after
“Hey dudes it a movie” or explaining the actions of the characters.
Ha! They swallowed that part of the conspiracy hook line and sinker.  The Luke-Anakin-Obi Wan triangle seems a little tooooo polished for my liking

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“Pickles are evil”
- K Patrick Glover, 10 June 2007

bengiman United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 10:45 AM

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Luke-Anakin-Obi Wan triangle seems a little tooooo polished for my liking

ha

Spocko United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 12:49 PM

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There would not have been a 9/11 had it not been for the incompetence of the current administration/congress, those that came before, and all airlines. Immediately after the first ever hijacking occurred, all planes should have been upgraded with strong lockable doors or a separate hatch for the pilots. This kind of thing should have been prevented decades ago! Stupid monkeys.  cool smirk

zilch Austria Posted on 05/05/2007 at 01:28 PM

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Hiya Spocko!  While lockable doors to the cockpit seem, in retrospect, an obvious idea, they wouldn’t have helped in the first hijacking, or in a number of subsequent ones, where the hijackers threatened to blow up the plane.  My wife’s cousin Martin, who is a pilot for Austrian Airlines, has been issued a gun, and told that in case of an attempted hijacking, he is to lock the door, ignore whatever goes on in the passenger compartment, and fly the plane to safety.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Neodromos United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 02:07 PM

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I think the allure of conspiracy theories is that there are a number of examples where it appears there was a conspiracy in place, and while the attacks of September 11, 2001 are NOT an example of this, there remains a number of very questionable actions taken by the government throughout history to imply that it is entirely plausible to assume the government has hidden valuable information from the public. One notable example would be the Pentagon Papers, and the fact that the State Secrets privilege has been invoked abused by the current aministration more so than in any other period of American History lends credibility to the notion that our government may be hiding more than we know. While I do believe that the *official* explanation is the most credible and is, in fact, what really happened, I like many others, no longer trust my government. In light of many events, I believe that THIS is what allows most conspiracy theories to thrive.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 02:20 PM

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Spocko: Immediately after the first ever hijacking occurred, all planes should have been upgraded with strong lockable doors or a separate hatch for the pilots. This kind of thing should have been prevented decades ago! Stupid monkeys.

Yeah.  Or even if people had fought back, but that has changed.  We’d always sort of imagined hijacking as the province of harmless kooks.  “Take this plane to Cuba” hey, nobody is that desperate for a good cigar!  But an individual dying, or even a whole planeload of people dying, is far from the worst that can happen.  Everyone understands that now.

Which makes me think the next big attack won’t even involve planes.

nowiser United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 03:15 PM

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Uh, I hit “preview” just to make sure my urls were working, and it -posted- my entire spiel in this thread.

Sorry guys.

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It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment—Galileo

tim gueguen Canada Posted on 05/05/2007 at 03:56 PM

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I’ve commented more than once elsewhere that the appeal for many of conspiracy theories is an ego boosting one.  After all if you can see “the truth” when most others don’t then you must be more intelligent and perceptive than “the sheeple,” and if you state your conspiracy beliefs publically you must be braver too, since you’re putting yourself at risk.  Of course there’s not much threat from a conspiracy that doesn’t actually exist.

***Dave United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 06:23 PM

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My personal opinion is that conspiracy theories spawn out of fear.  The world’s a scary place.  Shit seems to happen.  It’s much more comforting, in a way, to think that *someone*’s in control of things, via a vast, powerful, knowledgable, secret conspiracy, than to think that it’s as random as it appears to be.

(And, yes, I’m well aware that’s the same argument used against theism. grin )

Once bought into a conspiracy theory, *most* folks can’t turn back both because ego becomes involved, because there’s a supportive network of fellow believers, and because it means facing up to that fear and conquering it.

(And, yes, ditto.)

I think the best argument against most conspiracy theories in general, and this one in particular, was hinted at above:  “three can keep a secret if two are dead,” and this Administration in particular has shown itself as incompetent at keeping secrets as it has in most other endeavors. 

Unless, of course, that incompetence is just feigned in order to throw people off the scent.  Aha!  That’s it!

Les United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 07:43 PM

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No sweat, Nowiser, I’ll move it.

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When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn’t know.
-- Mark Twain

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/05/2007 at 08:29 PM

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Unless, of course, that incompetence is just feigned in order to throw people off the scent.  Aha!  That’s it!

If the current administration is feigning incompentence, they’re doing a heckuva job.  tongue wink

Benior United States Posted on 05/06/2007 at 12:41 AM

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Dylan Avery sure does a good job of coming across like an unreasonable asshole.

Webs United States Posted on 05/06/2007 at 01:09 AM

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LH: that link was fantastic!

Moloch: Trolls don’t bother me, I would be happy to discuss the issue with any one of them.

Les and Zilch: Thanks for the kind words it means a lot to me.  It wasn’t easy for me to writethis post or to tackle this issue coming from where I used to stand.

I think Zilch makes a good point.  And to me it would make sense that Satin was behind it, Bush aint smart enough. LOL

Dof:

There is absolutely no point in arguing with them.

With the ones that are on a clear rant I agree.  There is no point.  But the ones that appear to want a real discussion, there might be some hope.

***Dave:

Once bought into a conspiracy theory, *most* folks can’t turn back both because ego becomes involved, because there’s a supportive network of fellow believers, and because it means facing up to that fear and conquering it.

I think this is another great point and really goes a long way to help explaining the conspiracy thinker.  For me it was hard to face up to the fact and just swallow my pride.  And with many people I think they see this as a hurdle to high to overcome.  Admitting you’re wrong is never an easy thing to do.  Which is why I try to realize that ideas I have are just that, an idea and not a belief.  I think many people would do good to drop their beliefs and just think.  Ideas can be changed but beliefs are what we fight and die for.

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Last_Hussar United Kingdom Posted on 05/06/2007 at 05:43 AM

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Where do we stand on the Kennedy’s?

I read ‘On the trail of the assassins’ by Jim Garrison (On whick Stone based JFK, with Costner as Garrison).  There are just enough niggles in there to make me go ‘I wonder...”
There was a tree in leaf that blocked the LoS.
Oswald used to sit in Marine Barracks espousing Marxism, yet was assigned to the highly sensitive US base- from where Powers made his fateful flight.
There were multiple sitings of Oswald on the same day in different places that he couldn’t have been at all. His description changes at these.
No one debreifed him when he returned from the USSR.

It would have been interesting if it had gone to trial. Oswald had been questioned for 12 hours with out counsel.  If a lawyer had made a move to dismiss under this would the judge have stuck to the law? Would he dare to?

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“Pickles are evil”
- K Patrick Glover, 10 June 2007

Last_Hussar United Kingdom Posted on 05/06/2007 at 06:27 AM

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Was just Googling for JFK. Unfortunately 9/11 tends to blanket the search because of ‘conspiracy’. Found this on WTC. Unusual for a ‘ct’ because 1) He doesn’t say ‘Cover up’ much- just says ‘look- this doesn’t seem right’. and 2) He is actually a structural engineer in the 70’s.

The only point he make I can’t answer is when he says the towers took 10 seconds to fall, which is just enough time under free fall, and should be longer because the slowing effect of the floors underneath- there would be a dip in momentum as each floor is broken. That is true. What I don’t know is if it really took 10 seconds.

Height- To roof 417m
Object in freefall:
Distance travelled after 9 seconds 397m
Distance travelled after 10 seconds 490m

What happened to the storeys above the crash site? Obviously the distance fell was from the crash point, not the roof. Did the roof keep travelling down under momentum, thus pancaking the floors in the ‘broken bit’ AFTER it had reached ground level?

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“Pickles are evil”
- K Patrick Glover, 10 June 2007

Julian India Posted on 05/06/2007 at 07:17 AM

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Whats the non-conspiracy theory of the JFK assassination anyway? Was Oswald just a nut?

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/06/2007 at 10:59 AM

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There is another SEB thread where the WTC “conspiracy” issues are explored at length: Did no one tell which side Fox is on?

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/06/2007 at 11:01 AM

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Doh!  I mistyped the title, but the link still goes to the right place. 

The thread starts out in a discussion of Fred Phelps’ band of whackos, but drifts off into a much longer discussion of WTC and 9/11.

Weapon of Mass Disturbance United States Posted on 05/06/2007 at 11:25 AM

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I like the Single Plane Theory.

An indestructible aircraft flew through both towers, skipped off the Pentagon, and then knocked another plane into the ground in Pennsylvania before returning to the secret airbase clandestinely administered by super intelligent aliens.

Illegal aliens.

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