Organized religion isn’t all bad….

Posted by Socialist Swine on Monday, December 06, 2004 at 06:48 AM. Read 1881 times. Tags:
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A comment made by Les to an earlier entry made me think.  Les noted that fundamentalism isn’t limited only to religion.  I agree with this sentiment quite strongly.  It does seem that some of us non-believers do get a little vitriolic at times, and I think we are sometimes a bit too hasty to reject anything that is proposed by those who are a little more willing to accept things on faith.  This is not to say that I’m suggesting that we stuff reason into our back pocket and go around believing things willy-nilly.  Indeed, nothing can be farther from the truth.  I think anything that is accepted without first surviving the most rigorous tests that we can devise to disprove is nothing more than speculation that is mistaken for knowledge.

This said I would like to get to the topic that is suggested by the title of this entry; namely that organized religions have some underlying virtues.  Now I will admit I’m not an expert on religion but I do enjoy reading and one of my favorite topics is comparative theology so I know a little bit about a few of the major faiths.  In these faiths (Buddhism, Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, Mormonism, Reform Judaism, and Quakerism) I’ve noticed some underlying themes that I think everyone can accept whether they accept the more doctrinal claims or not.

First among these is the requirement that we care for our neighbors.  This is something that, from my experience at least, seems that we’re all woefully inadequate at doing.  I would hazard the guess that most of us have no idea who are neighbors are and it would be a snowy day in Sudan before we’d take the time and effort to go next door and lend a hand doing the laundry.  I think this is something that we can all learn from religion.  We do need to take more responsibility for the welfare of those around us.  People are social creatures, and the defining characteristics (evolutionarily speaking at least) of social species is some level of cooperation and altruism (depending on how you define it). 

Second, is the rejection of material excess (this is truer of some religions than others, however, they all reject excessive greed).  This is something that I also think is lacking in our contemporary society.  Indeed, as a friend of mine once noted (though perhaps she stole the quote from a movie, I’m not sure whether such is the case or not) the things we own end up owning us.  I look around and I do see many people who, though they have given up worship of God, fairies and Zeus treat money and random stuff with flashing lights as something that should be put on an altar and prostrated in front of.  I don’t think this is any less silly than sitting in a cave starving yourself and self flagellating to get a little closer to a bearded dude with a toga that lives on a cloud.  Again, this is something that we all can learn from religion; there are other things way more important than gathering crap.

Third, every single religion that I have ever read about places love as the most important virtue.  Love of oneself, love of others, love of your enemies, love of creation (well Buddhists aren’t so stoked about creation or samsara, they pretty much think it’s a crap sandwich with a side of crap), love of donkeys and whatever else you can think of.  As much as it might make me sound like a hippy (don’t worry I don’t smell like patchouli) I think that encouraging love is something that is quite laudable.  If there was a little more love there’d be a little less misery, and as much as I hate to say it, there seems to be a lot of misery out there than can easily be avoided.  People in Africa who can’t afford their AIDS medication, well if we cared for them a little more they’d probably have that medication.  People in the middle-east who constantly have to avoid bombs from terrorists and stray bullets from us, well if we all got along just a tiny bit better that probably wouldn’t be happening either.  Hell, even a little closer to home if we all cared about each other as people we’d have fewer problems with racial tensions, homophobia, and gender inequality.  A little more love might just be what the doctor ordered.

All in all, I think organized religion tends to be a bit scary, a little silly, and not all really for me, but there are a few things that one finds in it that is entirely on the mark.  Maybe instead of always pooh-poohing each other over what we believe (this goes both ways) maybe we should all take five minutes consider what other people think and perhaps accept it if it makes sense.  This said, no one is ever going to convince me that free will and an omnimax deity are compatible.  Such a claim isn’t logically consistent.  However, if you want to tell me that we should take an hour a day and do something that benefits others rather than ourselves because in serving others we serve “God” then maybe you wouldn’t get an argument out of me.  Anyhow, that’s all I have to say.

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decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 12/07/2004 at 02:42 AM

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Doh! Correct title of Foster’s book that I read is Celebration of Discipline

A person is “defined” by whatever one chooses to define them by.  The crux of politically correct speech is not to define a person by some externality*. But people are often defined by occupation ("Bob is a plumber") and how one pays the bills is certainly an externality. 

Then there’s social roles and relationships ("My husband/wife” or “Our minister,” which combines occupation and relationship.) Or action, as Ellie suggests ("The gunman") and then dozens of combinations of every imaginable kind.

A more crucial distinction is whether one settles comfortably into definitions provided by others, bristles at unwelcome definitions used by others, or charts a course based on definitions of one’s own choosing.  And, how significant those definitions are, and to whom.

*(PC speech restrictions are plain idiotic, based on the hyper-sensitive notion that all definitions are bestowed by others. Use one word and you’re OK - another and you’re in violation of policy.  In neither case are your intentions revealed.  Is it possible to insult a self-defined person?)

zilch Austria Posted on 12/07/2004 at 02:45 AM

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DoF said:  The Mennonite church here is involved in the Victim-Offender Reconciliation Program (which has the attractive acronym VORP,) where criminals and their victims meet in a controlled, mediated situation and try to understand each other.

Now that takes moral courage.  Bravo Mennonites.  This is somehow a lot more impressive than fundies telling us we’re going to burn in Hell…

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/07/2004 at 03:27 AM

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ellie,

It always occurs to me as I hear/read the “free will!â€? “NO! ILLUSION of free willâ€? debate that the whole thing seems based on an assumption that our actions define us.  Why else would it matter?

I’m not sure that is actually how the freewill/omniscience debate is framed.  It’s more of a dispute regarding the logical consistency of infallible prediction and real choices.  As for why it matters, I’m not sure that it does, it is a interesting puzzle that leads to some theological issues. 

However, moving back to the topic at hand, namely how we define identity.  I to a great extent agree with DOF that much of our sense of identity is derived from our social interactions.  However, I think the process is a little different.  More specifically, it seems from my personal experience at least that my impression of myself is to a substantial degree shaped by the social groups I identify myself with rather than how others identify me. 

I guess I would say that we to the large part identify ourselves in terms of contrast classes.  We compare our belief sets, values, etc with others and draw conclusions about ourselves.  For example, I consider my views about how we should deal with poverty and I realize that I agree more with those who believe in improving social security and as such I begin to identify myself with being more of a leftist.

Hank Fox United States Posted on 12/07/2004 at 12:45 PM

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I finally decided the free will/no free will issue settles in some middle ground. Free will is POSSIBLE to humans, but most of us don’t manage it, because it’s a lot of work. Far easier to just relax and live by patterns and formulas that someone else lays on us.

I think of Reason in the same way. It’s an attribute of the human species, and thus possible to most of us, but very few actually do it, or do it for any length of time. Because it’s hard to learn, and takes a considerable amount of effort to do. Much easier to do what advertisers, or our culture, or the “cool” people, or Brother Falwell, etc., tells us to do.

What’s so disturbing to me about all this is this other idea I have: If you live your life wholly by patterns handed to you by someone else, it’s kinda like you’re not really there. There’s a human body there, and there’s definitely complex stuff going on in its head, but there’s no unique SELF there. It’s just a bunch of patterns.

GeekMom United States Posted on 12/07/2004 at 12:57 PM

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Hank, why can’t everyone just be a unique bunch of patterns?  What’s wrong with that?  I seriously doubt there’s anything new under the sun ...

ellie United States Posted on 12/07/2004 at 08:10 PM

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Hank, could you check out & comment on my recent post in the “interconnectedness of things?

Kelly United States Posted on 12/07/2004 at 09:16 PM

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I think the reason many organized-religious people think atheists can’t be moral is a failure of imagination.

I disagree, but I may be operating from a false mental model.  I don’t think organized-religious people think that atheists can’t be moral.  It’s clear that they can, and many of them do, but the question is - why?  Why seek the good of others to the detriment of self?  And worse, if there’s no standard against which to define moral behavior, then how can you judge what is moral, and what is not? Can’t everyone pick their own, differing standards? 

I actually just wanted to post my favorite quote, from a dear friend, “That church would be just perfect if it weren’t filled up with those durn people.  It’s the people that are always messing things up.”

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/08/2004 at 01:18 AM

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Kelly,

Why seek the good of others to the detriment of self?  And worse, if there’s no standard against which to define moral behavior, then how can you judge what is moral, and what is not? Can’t everyone pick their own, differing standards?

I think the answer to the first question is “math”.  There are more people who are others than the one that is yourself.  As such in terms of maximizing the good, the more you serve the needs of others before yourself, the more good you bring to the world.  Now the most ideal circumstances allow you to do good for yourself while you are doing good for others.

Regarding your second question, I think the answer is easy.  I think what is moral is what is compassionate.  The right thing to do in any circumstance when you are unsure is the one that is done with the intent to help others.  Now, I will grant that good intentions sometimes lead to bad consequences, however, that is true whatever fixed moral standards you hold.  Moreover, the notion of compassion isn’t a rigid set of rules that don’t account for extenuating circumstances, it allows you to make judgments that are situationally approriate.

As for your third question I have several replies.  The first is a question directed at you, why should we choose one religious standard over another?  Despite the fact that there are distinct similarities in the more general cases (as I noted in my original post) there are also many differences when it comes to the moral details between various religions.  For example, most Anglicans (in Canada at least) argue that it is our obligation to extend our compassion and love to homosexuals, while say Southern Baptists think it’s wrong to extend anything towards gays except for 2x4s (or maybe axe-handles).

The second reply is why must be have a single standard at all for morality?  What’s wrong with having a more flexible notion of morality that accounts for new things that we learn.  For example, if we thought it was okay before to mistreat and abuse animals because we thought they didn’t experience pain (as was the case up to the early 20th century) and then we later realized that they experience pain just as we do should we not be able to adjust our moral standards to reflect this?

zilch Austria Posted on 12/08/2004 at 06:00 AM

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Pig oinked: I think the answer is easy.  I think what is moral is what is compassionate.  The right thing to do in any circumstance when you are unsure is the one that is done with the intent to help others.

Swine, what you said, and nicely put.  However, I must disagree with your claiming the answer is easy.  The ideal of helping others is simple, but how to set it into practice is not often easy.  That’s one reason religions differ- there’s no one obvious way to run a society, even given the same ideals (say, love one’s neighbor).

Kelly’s question:

if there’s no standard against which to define moral behavior, then how can you judge what is moral, and what is not?

is a good one, and it has no simple answer.  That’s part of the attraction of religion: it offers simple answers to this question, answers that are workable enough to build societies, warts and all.

That’s one reason we have religions- they organize people into successful societies, which promulgate their beliefs, one way or another.  Religions evolve as organisms do, and accrete rules and defense mechanisms that keep them competitive in the ideosphere.  As I’ve said before, even atheists need religion, in the sense of rules or morals or ideals that are irrational.  The difference is that the believers believe the rules to come from the top down, and the atheists say the rules evolve from the bottom up.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
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Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/08/2004 at 12:18 PM

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zilch,

However, I must disagree with your claiming the answer is easy.  The ideal of helping others is simple, but how to set it into practice is not often easy.

Yes, I should have been a little more careful with the way I put it.  I was only trying to suggest that the answer itself is easy to come by, namely the obvious answer to the question is that you should do what’s compassionate.  However, it is true that doing what is compassionate, or figuring out what is the compassionate thing to do can be very difficult indeed.

ellie United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 07:22 PM

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Southern Baptists think it’s wrong to extend anything towards gays except for 2x4s (or maybe axe-handles)

I take exception to that.  I don’t currently attend a Southern Baptist Church, but I did for the last 2 years before I moved.  A very good friend of mine is gay.  While I understand your point that they are the least tolerant denomination (next to Catholics) of homosexuality, they in no way endorce violence.  This is much like the misconception that there is some direct link between Protestants & the KKK.  I think there’s a direct link between Sadaam & Al-Queda, so I’m not going to use that example, but if that’s true then we can blame Buddhism for eco-terrorism in Maryland.  Once again, violence stems from a lack of education, not an excess of a faulted religion.

John Hoke United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 08:20 PM

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While I understand your point that they are the least tolerant denomination (next to Catholics) of homosexuality

Except in their Priests of course

:::runs and ducks:::

ellie United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 08:44 PM

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Ah yes, good point tongue rolleye

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 12/08/2004 at 10:53 PM

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While I understand your point that they are the least tolerant denomination (next to Catholics) of homosexuality, they in no way endorce violence.  This is much like the misconception that there is some direct link between Protestants & the KKK...
- Ellie

First, you are right that violence in any setting is usually the extremists.

And also right that the Baptists don’t endorse violence - officially - and it would be uncommon to hear a church male suggest it on church grounds, or in the presence of a female. 

(’fore anyone gets their political correctness up, try hanging out in Bible-believin’ churches for a while and pay particular attention to how women and men communicate in the church context.  And to the roles they play.)

I am curious if you have had the opportunity to overhear males outside of church grounds discussing male homosexuality when they think you’re not within earshot.  A rare circumstance, I admit.  But you might hear violent suggestions that would shock you.  Not everyone, of course; but a lot of guys.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:09 AM

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I was just thinking of Fred Phelps, isn’t he a southern baptist minister that constantly calls for violence against gays?  Now I know that one person shouldn’t be considered as representative of an entire group, but then again I rarely hear baptists condemning the views and actions of Phelps.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:17 AM

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Oh, as for the Buddhism eco-terrorism thing, I’m not sure how you’re drawing that connection.  Buddhism says nothing about environmental activism, the closest view to the requirement to protect the environment is the requirement not to kill any sentient creature.  So yes, Buddhism says you can’t kill animals, but how does it lead to or encourage eco-terrorism?  I haven’t even heard anything about environmental activists and eco-terrorists being Buddhist (indeed, Buddhism doesn’t particularly encourage those kinds of sentiments, considering that Buddhists view this world as a sort of purgatory, not something to be treasured).

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:32 AM

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DoF hit on the reasons (besides moving) that I no longer attend there.  Many individual good friends, but an overall discomfort with the combination of breasts & questioning in political matters.

Often I would be a part of the conversations especially since they would also talk to me about my friendship with a gay guy.  I actually brought up Phelps & their assumption was that it didn’t need to be pointed out how obviously wrong he is.  They definitely judged that it all shows a childish preoccupation & curiosity over sex & the Oedipal complex going awry based on a lack of positive strong male presence, etc. (based on little to no direct personal experience, of course).  The pastor of that church himself had issues when his foster daughter had an affair with her female teacher. & the speech he gave in court!  You saw free-will go out the wiindow pretty damn quick!  My grandpa is a pretty firm guy, & even though he has attends Quaker & formerly Baptist non-denominational churches, he was always very harsh with my uncle, (who’s gay, yet also severlely mentally/ethically troubled: he’s been under the county’s care for ander management).  Even I myself don’t try to base much off simply my best friend & my uncle, they are two individuals on opposite sides of the spectrum in a likely diverse population.  The pastor of a church in the town I used to teach at had a 20 yr. long partnership, but they were so far off on so many other theological issues I couldn’t really accept their practice as Christian.  I approach it like obesity or alcoholism, both of which I’ve struggled with in small degrees, & been friends with those who truly struggle: sin’s sin & mine’s the only one I should get violent with.

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:36 AM

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Exactly my point, SS, you proved the analogy is valid.  The connection is so nearly invisible, it’s a silly connection to attempt between Christianity & the KKK.  I can see the cultural surroundings condoning the KKK, but the teachings of Christianity leading to it?

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:44 AM

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You think obesity is a sin?  You have to be a little more accepting of yourself.  It’s not like you intentionally try to gain weight.  However, back to the point of the discussion, now it seems from your most recent post that not only do baptists tend to be somewhat homophobic they’re sexist as well.  I’m not sure you’re making such a good case for the baptists.

They definitely judged that it all shows a childish preoccupation & curiosity over sex & the Oedipal complex going awry based on a lack of positive strong male presence, etc. (based on little to no direct personal experience, of course)

The above makes it seem that baptists implicitly believe that homosexuality at best is some sort of mental disorder or illness.  Though that isn’t as bad as some people treat homosexuality, it definitely isn’t a sign of acceptance.

The pastor of that church himself had issues when his foster daughter had an affair with her female teacher.

Now I can understand being upset that your child had an affair with their teacher.  However, it seems that the emphasis here is with the gender of the people involved, not the fact that one was a teacher and the other a student.

My grandpa is a pretty firm guy, & even though he has attends Quaker & formerly Baptist non-denominational churches, he was always very harsh with my uncle, (who’s gay, yet also severlely mentally/ethically troubled: he’s been under the county’s care for ander management).

Here’s a baptist who is “harsh” with a mentally ill person because they’re gay.

The pastor of a church in the town I used to teach at had a 20 yr. long partnership, but they were so far off on so many other theological issues I couldn’t really accept their practice as Christian.

I assume from context that the pastor is gay, so the one gay person whom you directly mention, you mention as a bad Christian. 

It seems there is a underlying rejection of homosexuality in your post even if there isn’t a rejection of homosexuals.

As for the sexism, I think that’s evident in the line which said:

Many individual good friends, but an overall discomfort with the combination of breasts & questioning in political matters.

Why should it matter what sex you are when it comes to expressing your political views.  The fact that it does matter seems to be a pretty clear indication that sexism is alive and well.

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 01:46 AM

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ellie,

I never connected Christianity with the KKK, I just said that baptists seem to me to be vehemently opposed to homosexuality.  I did talk about the 2x4 and the axe-handles, but that was taken from several incidents of violence against gays that were perpetrated by southern-baptists (with the express approval of people like Rev. Fred Phelps).

Hank Fox United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 04:32 AM

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Um ... The KKK is a Christian organization. I don’t know of direct connections to any specific church, but they’re 100% Christian. This is not some coincidence, either, it’s a cornerstone of their identity. I’d be very surprised if every single member of the KKK, however few of them still exist, didn’t self-identify as a Southern Baptist.

And before you go saying they’re not real Christians, look up the “No True Scotsman Fallacy.” Doesn’t matter whether other Christians want them in the fold or not, if they call themselves Christians, they’re Christians.

You CAN be a Bible-believing Christian and a hateful racist idiot (and worse). I grew up in Texas and Alabama, and they were anything but rare.

Les United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 06:58 AM

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I wanted to address something SS said:

I was just thinking of Fred Phelps, isn’t he a southern baptist minister that constantly calls for violence against gays?  Now I know that one person shouldn’t be considered as representative of an entire group, but then again I rarely hear baptists condemning the views and actions of Phelps.

Phelps is truly an asshat, but not hearing many Baptists condemn him doesn’t mean you should assume they condone him either. There are plenty of asshat atheists out there that I don’t make a point of condemning either through ignorance or lack of desire to give them any more attention than they’re already getting. It would be a mistake to assume that means I secretly condone their actions.

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zilch Austria Posted on 12/09/2004 at 07:16 AM

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Nicely put, Les.  My grandma Hattie was a Baptist from Missouri, and one of the nicest people I have ever known.

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You were born.  And so you’re free.  So happy birthday.
- Laurie Anderson

Socialist Swine Canada Posted on 12/09/2004 at 09:44 AM

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Les,

Point taken, I admit that I might be painting in too broad of swaths.  However, it just seems to me that the problem extends further than Fred Phelps, even if Phelps is the most egregious example of religion based homophobia.

ellie United States Posted on 12/09/2004 at 07:18 PM

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I suppose gluttony/laziness would be the sin, w/ obesity as a result.

Anyway, I do accept the Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality, to clear that up, but in practice, don’t judge it any harsher than the sins I’m guilty of myself.  My Grandpa is NOT a baptist, & harsh in general.

Yup, you got baptists in general right, it’s why I’m not one.  Thanks for the point, Les & zilch.  But I was merely trying to point out that judgement, sexism, & discomfort are a far step from outright violence & murder.  Kind of like the difference between me being somewhat lazy when I get home from a day of work & eating comfort food to the teacher down the hall who is 670 lbs & has taken to a cart to move at all, eats all day long, & plans to retire so she can be bedridden.

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