I wish I had your gift of the spoken word.  A post I made recently, I feel, brings up this same thinking.  I was dismayed to hear about Nicholas Berg and the torture of the Iraqi prisoners.  I was not, however, surprised by it.  It’s human nature, and as you point out, that tribalism, that prompts and justifies and perpetuates such acts.  I worry now about what atrocity on our part is going to show up as a retaliation for Nick Berg.  I soooo want to crawl under a rock.

I mentioned once, here, that I accidentally saw a clip of a guy being beheaded. I had access to Nicholas Berg’s film since early yesterday and finally decided to watch as much of it as I could (I don’t even understand why I felt I needed to see it), and did watch it up to the actual murder scene.

Before, after I saw the other clip, it would rise in my consciousness, when my mind was idle, such as before I went to sleep and I would lay awake for hours trying to forget it. It stayed with me for weeks.

I know that I’m a pussy when it comes to things like this and I don’t feel that anyone needs to see the clip. If you’re secretly a snuff film lover, you may crave seeing it, but take it from me, once you’ve seen one beheading, you’ve seen one more than you needed to see.

Good piece of writing though Les. Sorry, I forgot to mention that.

Pink Floyd said it nicely too:

Us And Them

Us and Them
And after all we’re only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it’s not what we would choose to do
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died
And the General sat, as the lines on the map
moved from side to side
Black and Blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it’s only round and round and round
Haven’t you heard it’s a battle of words
the poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There’s room for you inside
Down and Out
It can’t be helped but there’s a lot of it about
With, without
And who’ll deny that’s what the fightings all about
Get out of the way, it’s a busy day
And I’ve got things on my mind
For want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died

I’m just going to stop posting anything in my blog but “yeah, what Les said” from now on.

I’m just going to stop posting anything in my blog but “yeah, what Les said” from now on.

LOL.

.....sincere thoughts.....for a disgusting event as this....good work Les

Reading the comments you linked to depresses me. I wish someone would invent a device that could just wipe everyone’s brain. Start on a clean slate.

It’s never going to end. If Bush gets kicked out the right will be enraged. If Bush stays the left will be enraged.

It’s never going to end. We will stay in Iraq, and then move to the next country.

It’s never going to end. Israel will fight Palestine will fight Israel.

It’s never going to end, and that depresses me.

Tribalism you call it. Red Team Blue Team I call It. It is innate. Security is raised by commonality, hence tribaling. Power is gained by oppression, hence contest. Human - not the better side but we all have our bad side to take a photo from. History? Not really unless ones need for self import makes it that in their mind.

Red Team Blue Team Future

And here I was worried that I wasn’t getting what I wanted to say across at the end. Thanks for the compliments.

Etan, I find the whole thought of this somewhat depressing at times as well and yet I still hold onto a sense of optimism. Education is our best hope. We’ll never be free of all our failings, but we can learn to live with them.

Sorry man, all I can see here is a cheap moral relativism, the notion that violence begets violence and that in any conflict both sides are morally equal and equally culpable.

You have also elided a major point: the fact is that all the people who favored the war (the “right” I guess you’d call us) you are accusing of tribalism are also, for the most part, people who loudly decried what happened to those Iraqi prisoners, expressed loathing and outrage and disgust and shame, calling for prosecution. this has been the norm, not the exception.

The moral distinction I and so many, many others draw, the difference between our “tribe” and theirs (to use your terminology) is that those people are proud of what they did, feel it was justified, and we are disgusted by both: we merely recognize that the brutal slaying of this innocent man was done for the specific and malicious purpose of frightening Americans.

There is a certain moral bankruptcy, not to mention intellectual shallowness, to looking at two sides and rather instinctively deciding both are equal. “Tribalism” is not our problem here; most who favor our actions in Iraq (as K certainly do) are more than willing to be friends with Iraqis, Muslims, Arabs in general. The reverse is not true for the terrorists who murdered Nick Berg. If you can’t tell the difference, and how very profound that difference is, it’s hard to fathom even trying to discuss this, becuase you don’t really even understand the pro-war side’s position.

This, sadly, seems to be the normal case when discussing these things.

Dean, it looks like there was a typo in your original message. Just to clarify, you meant to say “most who favor our actions in Iraq (as *I* certainly do)”?

The moral distinction I and so many, many others draw, the difference between our “tribe” and theirs (to use your terminology) is that those people are proud of what they did, feel it was justified, and we are disgusted by both: we merely recognize that the brutal slaying of this innocent man was done for the specific and malicious purpose of frightening Americans.

Or how about this?  The fact that due to their cultural beliefs, most Iraqis probably feel that what WE did in the prisons was a lot more heinous than a simple beheading.  That the deliberate slow beating to death of prisoners and the extreme humiliation inflicted on them was done for the specific and malicious purpose of frightening Iraqis.  Some of “those people” (what a telling phrase!) may well celebrate their one blow against the overwhelming invader; I’m sure the majority are equally horrified by the barbaric actions on both sides.

Dean, all you’re proving is that you can’t see any side of an issue other than your own.  You may want to call that shallow and “cheap moral relativism,” but I call it understanding more of the world than your own little corner.  Your position is a great example of subtle, pernicious tribalism, and it seems to be endemic of the right.

“Tribalism" is not our problem here; most who favor our actions in Iraq (as K certainly do) are more than willing to be friends with Iraqis, Muslims, Arabs in general. The reverse is not true for the terrorists who murdered Nick Berg.

“Some of my best friends are Arabs” ??  Come on.

And I really doubt that the soldiers who abused the Iraqi prisoners are “more than willing to be friends” with them.  Maybe as long as those friends toe the Republican party line.  Or do they think this is the kind of thing you DO to friends, like in a fraternity?

Dean, thanks for presenting us with a beautiful illustration of the point I was trying to make.

I’m not claiming that the morality on both sides of this issue are equally valid as you seem to think I am. In fact I went out of my way to specifically avoid making value statements about either side’s morality on the issue because it really is beside the point. The problem goes beyond the question of whether their morality is inferior to ours to how our societies teach us to think of our relationships with others and how we should deal with the inevitable conflicts that competing ideas will cause.

If the only solution we can come up with for dealing with these conflicts is to wipe out those societies that we feel are inferior to us then I fear for the future of mankind. Not just because there are people out there like the ones who killed Nick berg, but because the thinking they used to rationalize their actions is not something that any of us are above or immune to.

“Many Conservatives want to say that Nick Berg’s death makes the Abu Ghraib scandal pale in comparison, but the truth is that at least two Iraqi prisoners died as a result of the activities at Abu Ghraib. Simply because they weren’t beheaded nor had their deaths broadcast from a website doesn’t in any way make their deaths any less of a crime than Nick Berg’s.” NOT VALID - THE PRISONERS WERE IN THAT FACILITY FOR REASONS THAT WE CAN SURMISE,BUT NICK WAS NOT POLITICAL,WAS ATTACKED AS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER. Changes the common denominator completely.

Cheers, Les.  I think your assessment is right on the money.

And there are always --members-- within a tribe that are teetering on the edge of madness.  It’s not culturally limited, or racially limited.  That doesn’t mean that the entire tribe is insane, but it can sure make it look that way, sometimes.

the difference between our “tribe” and theirs (to use your terminology) is that those people are proud of what they did

Right.  I must have seen some different photos.  In the photos I saw, the guard holding the leash didn’t exactly look like she was overwhelmed with a personal feeling of shame.  In fact, a lot of those guards looked pretty --proud-- of what they were doing.

I don’t condone what happened at Abu Ghraib, but I’m not surprised in the slightest.

You want to see tribalism at its most vicious and stupid level-- go to a prison.  Any prison.  It’s already one of the most extreme “us vs. them” situations that you can encounter-- throw in a little war-time inspired contempt for an entire ethnic group, sprinkle liberally with a complete lack of discipline, and bake until photos are released

voila!  Abu Ghraib

NOT VALID - THE PRISONERS WERE IN THAT FACILITY FOR REASONS THAT WE CAN SURMISE,BUT NICK WAS NOT POLITICAL,WAS ATTACKED AS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER. Changes the common denominator completely.

There is some debate on whether the majority of people held Abu Ghraib were anything other than innocent bystanders themselves:

The report, which CNN obtained Monday, brought what it called “serious violations of international humanitarian law” to the attention of U.S. and British authorities.

It quotes intelligence officers who estimate that between 70 percent and 90 percent of those imprisoned “had been arrested by mistake,” often in cases in which soldiers used excessive force in the process.—Red Cross: Treatment of Iraqis ‘tantamount to torture’ - CNN.com

Can you tell me with confidence that the two Iraqis who died as a result of their treatment were definitely bad guys and not one of the folks arrested by mistake?

Sure, there are differences in the how and why of the deaths, but an innocent death is still an innocent death regardless of the reasons behind it.

I watched the vid of Nick Berg; call it morbid curiosity.

I watched it twice, felt sick in my stomach, and cried. Then I thought of some things I’d do to those bastards (but not really) if I were in the same room as them.

Not a very productive thought. I now know I don’t need to see shit like that again.

Watched it - I give it two thumbs down. Very poor quality and the money shot is obscured! Amateurs!

Hate me if you will but I think the guy was a dumbfuck for being over there.

PS. Yes I am a bastard.

Spocko, I think most of us would appreciate if you didn’t shove your fucking insensitivity down our throats.  I know you’re watching a movie, but it’s a fucking human being that you’re watching, having his fucking head cut off.

I haven’t watched the video yet, and I’m not sure if I ever plan to do so.  I don’t derive entertainment from the killing of other people.  I don’t care if he was warned a billion times - nobody actually deserves that.  So quite frankly, your reaction disgusts me.  I don’t hate you, but neither do I understand how you could be so fucking callous.

Back on the subject of the prisoner abuse versus the beheading: Les, you are absolutely right.  The problem that humanity has is our constant need to retaliate without thinking about it.  I do think that the beheading (if you even want to get THAT specific over something not even worth discussion) was worse in comparison, but that isn’t worth shit anyway.

As for you, Dean, you might be surprised to hear that one DAY after the beheading video was made public, there was a story going around about how Middle Eastern Muslims were condemning the act itself.  I don’t fucking care if they bombed an orphanage (which, by the way, we did to them) - it’s all wrong.  It’s all fucking wrong.

Nothing here in this situation is justified.  We should have never invaded Iraq without the evidence with which to do so.  They shouldn’t be bombing us.  We shouldn’t be abusing them.  They shouldn’t be beheading us in front of fucking cameras.

It’s all fucking WRONG.  What the fuck is wrong with this world when we take pleasure in torturing people?  And both fucking sides are doing it.  I know they made this video to scare us… but shit, if we’re still over there because they keep inciting us, what the fuck does that say about us?  Fuck politics.  Fuck these respective societal arguements.  It’s all fucking war, and neither side is backing down or showing any sign of remorse for the revenge that they’re taking.

What a big fucking mess.

There is a very distinct difference between what was done to Nick Berg, and the deaths of the prisoners in U.S. custody. Not that those deaths aren’t as tragic, but the pepetrators are NOT heroes to any significant part of our society (I would have said none, but there are always a few sick fucks out there), but the murderers of Nick Berg are seen as heroes by a significant portion of their society (not all by any means, but likely in the hundreds of thousands if not over a million), and even worse are not condemned by the majority that do not see them as heroes.

Les, you continue to amaze me.

My cousin, who still works for NIMA--but not in analysis, sent me this recently. Most of the quote is his take on the consequences of still being tribal and not dealing with it.

One of the few benefits of being in DOD is access to the Early Bird News. The following is the full article by Seymour Hersh about the disaster in Iraqi prisons.

...

I thought I would offer [my rant] from the perspective of a former map maker and history major:

I can see where the Viet Nam analogy comes from, especially seeing marines shooting around concrete at enemies not in uniform and the whole urban warfare setting. It is surreal. Western arrogance is alive and well.

But this reminds me of Lebanon and how fractious this country was made after borders were drawn after WW II and the inability of the winners to understand that lines on a map do not make a country. And once an outside group enters (The Palastinian) after being kicked out of another country (Syria) how volatile the situation becomes once the thin balance of tribes and religion are altered.

After WW II the maps of the middle east and also Africa were redrawn as colonialism began to ebb. Iraq had its borders drawn by the British and expanded to include a much larger territory to include the Kurds in the north and the rural Shias south of Baghdad. Hussein ruled by decree and was brutal to the Shias primarily because of his fear of them [rising] and creating a state like the Shias in Iran did, once the Shah fled. (A total intelligence failure on our part) So he took on Iran and the US backed him, even though he was a very bad man, because Iran held hostages for 444 days. After the fall of the Soviet Union (another intelligence failure which makes this Iraq mess part of the peace dividend) Hussein began mischief outside his British drawn borders.

Toppling Hussein, regardless of the flimsy pretext was easy, but to think that all the factions in Iraq would magically unite under one flag is not an intelligence failure but a failure to understand that part of the world and to read a history book.

I have long believed that the Kurds got a raw deal, but it is what it is.

I wish I knew enough history and possessed the insight to understand when and how we moved to the modern form of tribalism.

Urbanization and, probing scholarship and, for lack of a better term, enlightenment were probably contributing facors. Was the move unique to western Europe or was something similar occuring in Africa and the near east when Islam was preserving ancient knowledge and doing good things with algebra and astronomy?

Once again Les you remind me why I come back to this site again and again, you have an insight that I admire, and a way of telling it how you see it that is very clear.

Nothing I can really add to the debate, except to agree that despair would be top of my list of emotions when contemplating current world events.

Les,
You make a good point about Tribalism and the “us vs. them” methodology that has produced much ugliness througout human history. Your only comment that I disagree with is “...no evidence that anyone involved in the Bush administration knew about the conditions developing at Abu Ghraib nor directly or indirectly gave permission or instructions..”. Although for now it is largely circumstantial, there seems to me to be many indications that torture has become official US policy. David Neiwert at his weblog Orcinus has some amazing facts about three major players in the Abu Ghraib abuses, Stephen Cambone, General Jerry Boykin & General Peter Schoomaker.

Nice to see some stuff on politics again. I know you don’t run a ‘political blog’ as such, Les, but I simply couldn’t relate much to most of your tech topics of the last few days.

> Right. I must have seen some different photos.
> In the photos I saw, the guard holding the
> leash didn’t exactly look like she was
> overwhelmed with a personal feeling of shame.
> In fact, a lot of those guards looked pretty -
> proud-- of what they were doing.

The NYT had an editorial (yesterday I believe) that compared the look of those pictures to those of old southern lynchings. The Iraqis, just as the blacks of those days, were held to be beneath contempt, so harming them was nothign to be ashamed of.

The heaps of naked bodies do remind one of hunting trophies, don’t they?

Valhalla said - There is a very distinct difference between what was done to Nick Berg, and the deaths of the prisoners in U.S. custody.

What would the big difference be, other than the method of murder or torture? Would it be different primarily because THEY chose to reveal the execution as a form of protest and WE use the Geneva convention’s mandates only when they suit our aims - An example being government lawyers arguing that releasing additional photos and videos of coalition force’s abuses would violate a Geneva Convention stricture against presenting images of prisoners that could be construed as degrading, according to Rumsfeld?

Not that those deaths aren’t as tragic, but the perpetrators are NOT heroes to any significant part of our society (I would have said none, but there are always a few sick fucks out there)…

I would guess that millions of Americans see our torture and humiliation of Iraqis as nothing more than venting and harmless hazing. I would go as far as to say that far too many Americans looked at the pictures we’ve been allowed to see so far and decided the prisoners deserved their abuses in some way. I would even say that millions of Americans are supportive of these abusers because they represented America’s authority and might.

...but the murderers of Nick Berg are seen as heroes by a significant portion of their society (not all by any means, but likely in the hundreds of thousands if not over a million), and even worse are not condemned by the majority that do not see them as heroes.

We are an invading force which did so without United Nations support. Can you not imagine how many there could despise us, knowing also that we placed Hussein in power in the first place? Can you not imagine how a violently occupied country and it’s neighbors could view an overwhelming force using uranium tipped munitions, stealth bombers and sweeping armies of kidnappers as evil and profane?

Maybe THEY aren’t as supportive of this beheading as you seem to think.

Arab Street Erupts in Rage Over Beheading Video
(2004-05-11)—The so-called ‘Arab Street’ erupted in rage and grief today, as devoted Muslims crowded into public squares by the hundreds of thousands, in dozens of cities, to denounce the brutal videotaped beheading of American Nicholas Berg by Muslim extremists affiliated with Al Qaeda.

“This is an outrageous, disgusting and obscene act of evil done in the name of our peaceful religion and in our own backyard,” said one unnamed Muslim cleric in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. “We mourn with Mr. Berg’s family at this horrible loss. We renounce not only this act of violence, but all acts of terror.”

The governments of all Arab League nations made a joint statement condemning the slaughter of Mr. Berg, and committing $100 billion toward the elimination of Al Qaeda and other Muslim terror groups.

“We pledge money, troops and intelligence resources in an all-out effort to end this scourge,” the Arab league statement declared. “We apologize for our past failures to rein-in or arrest extremists in our ranks. As of today, we are turning the tables on the terrorists. Now, it’s their turn to be afraid.”

http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001705.html

Is it possible the murder of Nicholas Berg is seen differently simply because he is an American citizen?  It is up to US to demonstrate how we would like THEM to treat US by acting responsibly ourselves.