But it is your job to tell other what they ought not to tell their kids?  BTW, haven’t you ever told your kids anything concerning what they ought to believe?  Sure, you have.  You’ve poisoned them against any independent examination of God and (pun intended) God help them if they were to come home with a Bible, right?

Well I am a little too young for kids… well I guess according to some religious nuts I would be a ripe age, but that aside I plan on getting out of my graduate studies before the kids come.  That said, when I do have kids I will let them formulate their own opinion.

The difference between us, my kid doesn’t have to believe in God for me to love him.  I have had this discussion many times with my father, well a similar discussion.  And he told me that if I was gay and wanted to marry my partner, he would be fine with that, but he would not support it, or recognize it as marriage.  Why?  Because of his stupid fucking Catholic upbringing.  Am I gay no, but coming from a supposed religious background of acceptance as most religions claim to be, doesn’t that sound like the opposite of acceptance.

Steve, I know that the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists. How do I know? Because she told me that she does. How do I know that she told me that she exists? Because I had a vision of her in which she told me that she exists. How do I know that I had a vision of her? Because I saw her quite clearly. How do I know that I saw her quite clearly? Because I had a vision of her. How do I know...ad infinitum.

BTW, haven’t you ever told your kids anything concerning what they ought to believe?  Sure, you have.  You’ve poisoned them against any independent examination of God and (pun intended) God help them if they were to come home with a Bible, right?

Of course all parents transmit their ideas onto their children. But that’s a far cry from what I happen to know goes on in many fundamentalist households, where kids are often forced to pray, read x-number of pages in their Bibles a day, and attend church with their parents several times a week.

Case in point: when I was a teen, a boogeyman among fundamentalist parents was the rise of the “goth” subculture. Focus on the Family and other such right-wing groups cranked out all sorts of pamphlets warning parents, advising them to be on the look-out for “signs” that their kids were being seduced by the “dark side.” I had friends whose parents would search their rooms, their wardrobes, read their diaries, etc. for signs that they were involved in anything that didn’t fit a very narrow conception of “wholesome” Christianity. I’m not a fan of procreation, but if I ever have kids, I hardly think I’d go to that much trouble to prevent them from forming their own views of the world, even if those views fundamentally contradicted my own.

And for the record, I don’t think LuckyJohn19 has kids. Correct me if I’m wrong, Johnny Boy. 

S-Sadie: Johnny Boy.

Correct and ... that’s what mum often called me. 

Stevo: In fact, that is how I measure the truth of the Bible: that every word backs up every other word.

Ah, come on, mate - next you’ll be telling us that everything in the bible is literally true.

BTW, haven’t you ever told your kids anything concerning what they ought to believe?  Sure, you have.

Nah. Never to anyone in my life (unless I was telling a lie … usually to a woman).
My parents NEVER told me what to believe.
I’m kid-less but I’ve had a close relationship with my 30 year old nephew since he was 6 weeks old.
In ordinary lessons of safety I’ve told him what to do - outside of that I’ve never told him what to believe although I’ve never held back telling him what I think.
I think it’s rather presumptuous to tell someone what to believe.
I think it’s far more exciting to figure out these things for oneself.
Regardless of what you think, no one has a handle on The Truth – it’s only ever what we think … and it could all be bullshit.
Richard Dawkins: We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in; some of us just go one god further.
That’s me - I just believe in one less god than you do and I’m quite happy and relaxed about it.
I never think I shouldn’t do something cos I’ll go to hell - if I choose not to do something it’s cos my atheist conscience or near enough to sixty years of experience tells me it’s unwise.
In other words, Steve, I answer to me and me alone.
I am the Alpha and Omega of me as I wander through this chaos called Life.

proof was only a proof if each of the statements in the proof were true

See? You are capable of some critical thinking!

The problem with this statement in reference to the bible is that each of the statements in it cannot be true since it frequently contradicts itself and many of its statements have been disproven. Therefore the bible is not true.

Good grief...major in overwrought prose at the university, did we? 

No, English wasn’t my major

I do have a doctorate in psychology, however, and I know enough about shame, guilt, and fear induction to know that kids at that age who are literally shrieking about this stuff are internalizing all kinds of raw emotional things that they don’t fully comprehend—and that they’re are going to have a very rough time coming to peace with all later. It’s what the pros would call a major mind-fuck.

DOF writes…

Les, can we get another God-shouter in here?  This one is recycling all the usual (and boring) arguments.

The quality of the God-shouters at this site has been consistently low.  Or maybe it isn’t just at this site.

You’re not happy with Steve? I’ve been laughing my ass off at his comments so far. It’s been years since I last heard someone seriously try to use the circulus in demonstrando fallacy.

How can I be unhappy and pissed off like Steve claims when he brings such laughter and joy to my life?

Gosh, you’re right, Les!  I just wasn’t looking at it the right way.

Please Steve, tell us more. 

I want Theocrat back…

Stevo: In fact, that is how I measure the truth of the Bible: that every word backs up every other word.

What you’re saying reminds me of Jesus and Mo

Uh-oh, Steve, you’re in trouble if you measure the truth of the Bible by every word backing up every other word.  That’s also how I measure the truth of the Bible and it fails miserably on that count.  Oh, and the whole ‘reprehensible ethics’ and ‘lack of concordance with the observable universe’ thing too.

How eerie, DoF; that’s exactly why the Bible fails with me too!  In fact, this is too uncanny to be a coincidence- it can only be the Devil at work here!

Once again, I did a search and didn’t find anything about this new documentary, Jesus Camp (trailer on YouTube).  I wouldn’t be surprised if the video I originally posted about used some of the footage from this… but I could be wrong. Unfortunately, there are probably lots of these camps.

From the NY Times:

The youngest foot soldiers for the Lord are shown in their native environment in this documentary. Becky Fisher is a children’s pastor who runs “Kids on Fire,” a summer camp for evangelical Christian children in North Dakota. Fisher believes in the political and moral importance of a Christian presence in America, and uses her camp to reinforce the religious training most of her charges are already receiving at home (the majority of the campers are home-schooled by their parents). Using video games, animated videos, and group activities to help put her message across, Fisher encourages the kids to pray for George W. Bush and his Supreme Court appointees while urging them to help “take back America for Christ.” For the most part, the children seem reasonably ordinary beyond the fact they pray with uncommon fervor and sometimes speak in tongues.

Like the original video, the comments on that page are pretty scary.  People actually support mind-fucking their own children in this way; but I suppose sacrificing their mental health and emotional development isn’t that big a deal to a parent who will do anything to “glorify” God. Someone should track all these kids and see how many of them end up going off the deep end, doing violence to themselves or others when they’re in their teens.

Normal Bob Smith will be attending the premiere on the 22nd, in full devil garb, with a camera crew and an Unholy Army of Catholic School Girls. If anyone’s out that way and so inclined, show your support!

Here’s the link for the movie website!

Thanks for the find OB.  I really enjoyed the bitch that was saying how their camp differs from the one Palestinian children go to, since the children of those camps are given hand granades.  But from the trailer it appears the knowledge these kids are given is just as scary to me. 

Anyways, I will not see this movie when it comes out.  The last thing Christian nuts need is more money.  Instead I will find a way to download it for free or possibly rent it.

The problem with this statement in reference to the bible is that each of the statements in it cannot be true since it frequently contradicts itself and many of its statements have been disproven. Therefore the bible is not true.

Uh-uh...thanks for blindly following your fellow pagans along the foolishness they call “wisdom.”

The fact is that there are only contradictions if the context of words written are not taken into account.  The study of proper interpretation is called “hermaneutics” and if you use the historical-grammatical approach, you can see that there are no contradictions. 

People may have genuine differences of opinion about how things may be interpreted, but it doesn’t mean the Bible is untrue.

Steve:...pagans…

You keep using this word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

The fact is that there are only contradictions if the context of words written are not taken into account.  The study of proper interpretation is called “hermaneutics” and if you use the historical-grammatical approach, you can see that there are no contradictions. 

I’ll take laughable attempts to dance around the Bible’s glarring contradictions and inaccuracies for $500, Alex.

You assume a lot with that claim, Steve. Even using your method of study there’s still plenty of contradictions and one only need a modest effort to find this out for themselves. Contradictions in and of themselves aren’t necessarily proof the Bible is untrue, but it’s the nature of the contradictions that put the lie to the claim. Above and beyond that there’s more reason not to accept the Bible as true than simple contradictions. Reasons such as the bigger picture it paints if you study it in full.

It’s hard for me to imagine how anyone can spend any serious amount of time studying the Bible, as I have, and not conclude that it’s mostly fiction and fantasy.

People may have genuine differences of opinion about how things may be interpreted, but it doesn’t mean the Bible is untrue.

You’d think the word of a perfect God would be plain enough to understand that there’d be no need for differing on how to interpret it. That’s a big strike against it right there.

Steve, you’re falling behind.  C’mon, tell us that if we’d only read the bible with a humble heart and ask Gawd to guide us, we’d see the truth.  Or did you get to that marker already?

“Hermaneutics” is the art of making stuff up to rationalize square pegs into round holes.  If you see a contradiction, you’re not sufficiently pretzel in your logic.

Question:  did the men travelling with Saul on the road to Damascus hear the voice that Saul heard, or not?  Acts 9:7 and 22:7, which is it?  Of course, all we have is Luke’s Greek translation of Saul’s Aramaic.  Copied by scribes aplenty from 2nd or 3’d century when it was probably compiled (and not by “Luke") and copied over and over, and then translated into English in 1611…

Contradiction, hell - it’s amazing it’s even readable.  Sort of.

Sorry Steve, but having been raised in the Church and spent decades studying it, I still find the Bible a contradiction-ridden mixture of mythology, allegory, blatantly-borrowed bits from other cultures, and a lot of violence and behavior that otherwise is unfit for children or adults.

Christianity is completely confused about whether it’s a religion of fear and authority or one of love. Usually, the literalists go with fear.

See Revelation 20:11-12 “11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

Let’s just drop the whole argument for a second if the bible is false or true.  This argument has been used and reused over and over, so I’m getting sick of repeating the same arguments and counter-arguments.  Allow a different approach to the issue if you will.  Lecto Divina or commonly known as comtemplation.

Lecto Divina is a old monastic tradition that allowed for the complete holy communion with the Lord.  It eventually converted into the broader practise of Christain meditation, which is the further of the communion gained in this practise.  The practise of such will lead to a greater sense of fullfillment and a better understanding of the love of the Lord.

I have been practising Lecto Divina for about a year and am fairly proficient at it.  I have about replicated the experience that is described above and I am technically not a Christain.  I have even preformed a similar ritual on my bio textbook and gotten an equally potent response (but a different context).  Some of the most holy visions I have achieved and yet why am I not convinced about everything the bible states.  Holy communion can be achieved in more ways then what is usually suggested.  You can even contact the Lord through an egg if you do it right!  Have you ever come into contact with comtemplation?  Have you tried to replicate some of the practises in the Bible?  n Joshua 1:8, God commands his people to meditate on his word day and night to instill obedience. The psalmist says that “his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law he meditates day and night” (Psalm 1:2).  The point is, have you fully experienced all that the Lord has to offer or are you just following the word of another!  Are you being a sheep following the flock of the shepard or are you a ram and forging your own path towards to Lord.

In short, I think most Christains are just blindly following the precepts of the another.  “Pagans” are all taking a slightly different route then normal but to the whole they are all agreeable.  Not so in the Christain sense (ie. Gnostic).  I can argue both sides of the fence but I chose the pagan side since I had problems with Christain indoctrination.  Please try to evaluate the Bible beyond grammer and suspect context.  Your points are all adaquetly counter-pointed.  How do you know the truth about your statements?  How good are you as a source on faith?  I personally believe your conviction is lacking.

That was way longer then intended.

But still insightful and relevant. I liked it.

Steve: The fact is that there are only contradictions if the context of words written are not taken into account.

Reading Infidel somethings late last nite someone mentioned that when a muslim (the same can be said of a xian, yes?) quotes holy texts, he does so without reference to context - but when the atheist quotes holy texts, the ‘context’ word invariably comes flying back from the theist.
I wonder why that is.
Here is a list of nearly 400 biblical contradictions.
#290: Does god repent?
No and Yes - e.g. Jeremiah 15:6 - I [God] am weary of repenting.
I wonder why an omnimax being would need to repent.

Psychromorbidus: when you write such a well thought out comment as that, I don’t think anyone notices the length.  I too enjoyed it.

Steve you are wasting your time.  Go read a good book (besides the bible), go on a bike ride or a walk, go talk to your kids or your wife, call an old friend.  But don’t waste your time here with nonsensical arguments.  Les and many of the others have been here for close to 5 years.  You think you’re the first one they have argued these points with? 

You need to come up with something better otherwise your going to walk away from this with a lot of energy wasted, and feeling pissed off at the world.  And certainly not at anyone else’s expense.

Webs said:

Psychromorbidus: when you write such a well thought out comment as that, I don’t think anyone notices the length.  I too enjoyed it.

Me too so I Googled Lecto Divina and it asked if I meant Lectio Divina instead.
Well now I’m confused.
Did Psychro. make a typo (he’s usually pert’ near perfect) or are there subtle differences between the two?
Did Maggie Dawn also make a typo? She has Lectio Divina mentioned as an Edit further down the page.
Another poster reckons Lectio Divina is the Catholic version of TM.
So the way I understand it is that Lectio Divina is like meditation - but instead of meditating on a Koan (like: what did your face look like before you were born?) you meditate on the words from the bible (or anything else - this is where the egg comes into it, I think).

And I gotta post and go meet my mate at the pub – I hope I haven’t made too many mistakes.
Nevertherless, Psychro, a very interesting twist. 

Yes it was a typo, there are a few there.  My eyes were watering near the end of the post (don’t know why) and I missed a few of the i’s hiding around there.  Sorry about that, I’ll lay off the onions.

Good onya, Psychro.
Somehow I doubt Lectio Divina is up Steve’s alley.
I think it could be too much like Meditation or, heaven forbid, Hypnosis which is on a par with Witchcraft and is not allowed by many of the sects within xianity; you’re hell-bound if you play in the last two - not sure how they view meditation.
It takes a bit of courage to let yourself relax into other realms within consciousness.
Mmmm. I don’t think one can really play outside of consciousness, can one? 
Alpha and Theta sure are a nice places to hang out though.