Oh, and PS:
Rather than feeling bad/weird about knowing the birds and bees before everyone else, or not believing in Santa, I felt priveleged that I had been trusted with “adult” information.

Thank you, shana, I really appreciate your responses.  Your PS comment may be a valuable key - kids love to be “in on the secret” especially if it’s from a credible source.

Your kids will be very lucky to have you telling them the truth.  When you need to tell them something really important, they’ll have good reason to trust you.

This is not true with Benny Hinn or the tooth fairy.  Both can be disproven.

How can you disprove the tooth fairy?  I’m honestly curious.  I claim that I can define the tooth fairy in such a way as it/he/she can never be disproven.  The same goes for belief in god.

God can always be defined/redefined in such a way as to be proved and to escape any attempt at dispoof.
Thus, it ceases to be a meaningful model for reality, since the believer will always be able to change the definition of god to match observations.

With the tooth fairy, though, you can do a simple test:
Put your tooth under the pillow.  If it’s still there in the morning, there’s no tooth fairy.

It ain’t so easy with god:
Pray for forgiveness?  And...get it?  How do you measure that?

To DOF-
Thank you. I am glad you found my response helpful.

I also wanted to say that I feel for you--you mentioned your “protective lies”.  I have never been a parent and it’s easy for me to make big statements from my childless soapbox.  I know in truth it must be so hard to determine what’s right for one’s children.  There are so many sometimes conflicting concerns.  I hope that everything worked out.
Even though I was angry with my mom for a long time about religion, I know that she did it with my best interests at heart.  I can’t condemn her for long--she is human, after all, and she still loves me in my godless heathen state.

shana:

My mom was always honest with me about things like sex, our family happenings, etc.  Took me to funerals for family members. All I can say is that I’m glad she did because I saw a lot of my friends flipping out when they discovered Santa was imaginary

WOW, flipping out. I have never seen this happen to anyone I know.

We have film from a Christmas in Europe when “Santa” paid us a visit to drop off presents. I was old enough to know what was up and have a cheshire cat-like grin on my mug. My nearly two year old brother has a look of utter terror and intense curiosity (if that’s possible); he barely manages to look around the corner to see the action. Now that we are adults, I haven’t heard any of my brothers talk about how the Santa myth shattered our trust in our parents. Like you, shana, I had a BIG problem with the religious beliefs my parents tried to feed me. Particularly the Heaven is for the good and Hell is for the bad myths. It was a struggle to realize that these were just concepts my parents threw at me, perhaps to keep me in line(?). Thankfully, my parents preferred camping, fishing, hunting, etc to church. When I was growing up I never had to waste even one day in a church listening to a sermon.

Sure enough my parents also hit me with the standard BS kids stories, like don’t eat apple seeds or they will grow out of your stomach, the sun sets into the earth (literally), etc. But, in fairness, they did make the best investment I can think of in me. They gave me their time. They were always there when I need them. We spent more time doing things together as a family than anyone I know. 

Kids are smarter than you think. They know the difference between well meaning fantasies such as Santa and malicious dishonesty. As a parent, one should make that time investment into their child’s upbringing and the trust will follow, after all Santa is just one tiny piece of the puzzle of child rearing. And keep religion the HELL away from their impressionable minds.

That’s my take on the situation; coming from atop the soapbox of a parent with two Santa believers.

With the tooth fairy, though, you can do a simple test:
Put your tooth under the pillow.  If it’s still there in the morning, there’s no tooth fairy.

It ain’t so easy with god:
Pray for forgiveness?  And...get it?  How do you measure that?

Ahhh...but what if I say that the toothfairy only collects teeth from good children?

Also, the tooth fairy works in mysterious ways, didn’t you know…

Now that we are adults, I haven’t heard any of my brothers talk about how the Santa myth shattered our trust in our parents.

I had friends in the 4th grade who got pissed off at me when I told them Santa wasn’t real.  They continued to believe.  Certainly, it’s a difference of degree--I’m not saying that Santa leaves lasting scars and I don’t label pro-Santa people as Santa proselytizing jerks, but I won’t bother with it when I have kids, either.  And I’ll have less to explain as a result.

Chris, bite me

dof:

On the topic of this thread, why DO we lie to our children?  I told several “protectiveâ€? lies to my kids when they were little, and have lived to regret it deeply.

Here is a link to an article about the “Santa lie” (in case you are suggesting that ALL lies are bad for kids).
http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/97/104275.htm?printing=true

I do not and will not lie to my children about the grim realities of life and death. Yes, there are shitty things out there, but there is also good and a child’s fantasy world/imagination can be used by them to escape reality and sort out their little worlds. There will be monsters under every child’s bed no matter how much you tell them the truth. I like to use my parental intuition into guiding how much of the “Santa lie” they are exposed to; encouraging them all along to reach their own conclusions. It’s a balancing act that only a parent knows how to adjust.

Why would I want to squelch her active imagination and steer her into adulthood before she has a chance to experience being a kid? I wonder if you have some information about harmful effects of the “Santa lie” on children; I am always on the lookout for information on becoming a better parent. Or is it your parental intuition telling you that all lies to children are bad for them?

Well as you said, Prickly, that’s your choice.

So you make a value judgement, as I did, to lie about this, but not about that. How do your kids know when to trust you?  Do you have some little signal; “I know I said some other things before that didn’t pan out, but this time I really mean it.”?

You don’t take a kid out of childhood by saying, “Santa is a fun pretend person, like Winnie the Pooh.”

Most kids navigate the transition without trauma.  A few do not.  Ditto for all the other little lies we parents are inclined to use as a shield between the child and the world. 

My parental intuition was worthless.  You take a little high-stakes risk every time you lie to your kids.  Usually it turns out OK.

How do your kids know when to trust you?

I spend my time with them, engaging them in their pursuits of knowledge, helping them creative play, at times being the big bad wolf or the guest at a tea party, buying them books and reading to them, helping them explore the world around them by visiting museums, parks, science centres, spending time one on one, and family time with both kids, and on and on. Santa is such a small part of the equation and, according to the experts, if you checked out my link, the Santa lie is just another extension of creative play. It’s not like I spend every day pretending that Santa is out there watching over them. Like the big bad wolf, it’s just another character in her little kids world. So when she realizes the fallacy of the Santa character, she will equate it with the same as having believed that I was the wolf. Santa is pretty well just a guy who hands out candy canes and sits in malls for her now and is becoming less real every year. To really gain the trust of a child one must spend as much time with them as possible being the parent, the wolf, the monster, the Santa.

Your kids will most likely turn out fine, Prickly. It certainly is obvious you love them and that should bridge any gaps. 

I did carefully read your link, and I’m not suggesting the Santa myth by itself could undermine trust.  Nor would I presume to tell you what to do.  Maybe to suggest what I would do if I had the opportunity to do it over.

But see, that’s just it.  You don’t have to make up Santa to foster imagination in kids.  They come up with that all on their own, just like I did.  I may never have believed in Santa, but that didn’t stop me from being a fairy princess or being interviewed by the news because of my rare doll collection.

You don’t have to make up Santa to foster imagination in kids.

You do not have to make up Santa, it is so prevalent as to be unavoidable. As such, every kid in North America is under it’s rather huge spell. I am making it work for my family and helping and fostering, I hope, my childrens development. But I certainly do not advocate the blind adherance to any such concept. I am in a situation where my wife stays home and takes care of the kids full time. She has a university degree in education (she got her degree in BEd, as she likes to say) and has put her career on hold to raise our kids. So, what’s good for our family does not automatically extend to every family situation. I just wanted to clarify that although I lie to my kids it is not malicious and can actually work to help a parent raise kid(s) if approached the proper way.

If anyone has a working link to read the entire lecture that would be great. The one posted at the beginning was a dead link.

As a mom of 2 toddlers I am starting to explore ways to make sure my kids have a full enough life that they don’t go searching for something else. This may sound strange but a fear of mine is that if I don’t find some way to fulfill that spiritual little part in them they may be easy targets for cults. I think spirituality and religion can be two totally different things when it comes to kids, I am just not sure how to implement it on my own.

The abandonment of my religion never really effected me until I had my kids, and now I find that I am missing the sense of community that went along with orginized religion. While that isn’t enough to make me shove my brain in a shoebox and go along with it all, (even if it would be to the pure delight of the rest of my family), it does give me some cause for concern.

It seems that the thiests really got the better end of the stick in the parenting department. When Tommy asks a tough question they can just say “because god said so” or “Grandma is in heaven with Fluffy and Jesus” or something like that, then they have an entire congregation of people to back them up.

How does an athiest explain some of the really hard things without resulting in a really depressed little kid, or a teenager who runs off and joins a cult for the security of having a tight knit community that I just can’t provide?

Thanks for reading my woes, I usually take a common sense approach to most things and don’t have a lot of trouble with the result, but the kid thing.. I’m new at it, and the monumental task of raising up functional little people is intimidating.

Thanks,

Bobbi

Let’s see if that stops the blue meanie infection here…
Bobbi- you say

Thanks for reading my woes, I usually take a common sense approach to most things and don’t have a lot of trouble with the result, but the kid thing.. I’m new at it, and the monumental task of raising up functional little people is intimidating.

It is indeed intimidating, but common sense will serve you well.  Just be honest and loving, and everything else will fall into place.  If they ask you tough questions you can’t answer, just tell them that some questions have no answers, or no easy answers.  Kids will accept this, and it will help arm them against simplistic thinking.

My daughter and son are now 15 and 17, and while they have problems (they are human), they are both kind, loving, atheists, and fairly immune (as far as I can tell) to hucksters of all stripes.

Good luck to you and yours.

Zilch, it’s ironic to note that it was a comment from you that started the blue meanies running rampant in the first place. I’ve fixed it for you.

Whimsy, here’s a link to a PDF copy of the full talk: Raising Children with Secular Values in a Religious World Lecture given by Natalie Angier.

Now, as to your concerns the best advice I can give you is to talk to them and let them make up their own minds.

My own daughter was very much a believer when she came to live with me at the age of 8, though she was very confused as to what she believed because she had been exposed to a number of different variations on Christianity over the years as her mother tried to find one that gave her the comfort level she thought it should. These days Courtney considers herself an agnostic with heavy atheist leanings, but not because I tried to pressure her into that line of thinking.

Instead I just let her come to me with the questions she had and I presented her with my views on them as well as the views I had when I was a believer and what many other people believe about the issue. She made up her own mind on which explanations seemed to make the most sense. The truth is that education—and not just the formal kind—can go a long way to offsetting the religious itch. When the best explanation you’re given while growing up is “Goddidit” you’re not left with a whole lot of anything else to believe, but when you’re given at least a general idea of what the naturalistic explanation is along with whatever the common religious views are then you have more data to come to a conclusion with.

As for the community aspect that church brings with it, which is a big draw for a lot of folks to religion, there are alternatives you could consider. First there are a number of different atheist organizations in various states that are there in part to foster a sense of community among the community, but you could also get involved with your local community as well. There’s always a need for volunteers and a wide-range of activities in most communities that you could look into participating with. The desire to feel like we belong is a strong one, but it doesn’t have to be satisfied only by religious groups.

Most of all, don’t worry about it too much. I never thought I’d be a good father and I’m told that I’m pretty good.

How does an athiest explain some of the really hard things without resulting in a really depressed little kid, or a teenager who runs off and joins a cult for the security of having a tight knit community that I just can’t provide?

Hi Bobbi - I am the father of five children, and one grandchild. It is tough without that support system. I was raised as a mormon by my parents, and that community is second-to-none in helping to parent each other’s children. In a community like that there is always a fallback, or a safety net.

This is not a bad thing on it’s surface.

The danger lies beneath the surface where the real damage is done to your child’s brain - but you already know that.

What I did was turn to my family and extended family, which is gigantic (mormons, remember?), and used them as my support system while my kids were growing up. I never lied to my kids about my atheism, and I took pains to explain the real world to them in such a manner that they understood what the difference was between dad and everyone else in their lives (practically). Dan Barker has a couple of good children’s books that i have found to be invaluable in explaining these things to young kids. So far all of my kids except my youngest, who is eight, are either out-and-out atheists, or leaning in the direction. My youngest has spent quite a bit of time with his religious mother and his religious grandmothers on both sides, so he’s become pretty enamored of the whole invisible magic man in the sky thing - but that’s okay. I figure he’ll end up figuring out the truth about the same time he figures out that Santa isn’t really shimmying down the chimney every year.

So, my answer to your question was to literally glom onto the outskirts of the existing mormon support system that I was raised in. I used my family, yes, but I did NOT do it all by myself. That’s impossible, I think, if you want to stay sane. I realize, however, that this may not be an option for you.

If I were in your shoes I’d look at the Unitarian Universalist congregations near you and join one that accepts and has no problems with athiests. Here’s the UU “Find A Congregation” page. You’ll have to do some research and ask some questions because some UU congregations are more “goddy” than others. It all depends on the reverend. Ask them flat-out if they have any problems with atheists and make them understand that you are there looking for a community for yourself and your toddlers, not religious indoctrination. You just want them to grow up to be good people and that you heard that the UUs might be the kind of place you could participate in where you could do that. Let them know that you plan on being an active member of their congregation so that they know you will contribute as well as take from the community. “Active” can mean everything from hosting dinner parties, to teaching courses on ethics to the tweens on Sundays, to organizing fundraisers, to babysitting other mom’s kids.

Best of luck to you, Bobbi! Believe me when I say that I know exactly what you’re going through and how you’re feeling. Hang in there!

Brent Rasmussen
Unscrewing The Inscrutable

Thanks Les.  I suspected I was responsible when I saw that “[/b)” in an earlier post of mine.  Little did I know the havoc I could wreak, the raw power I held in my hands, to make everyone blue!  Buahaha!

And Whimsy- Les said it.  I had no idea how to be a parent either, but I think I’m an okay dad.  You grow into it.

When doing some reaserch on the previously mentioned UU’s I found a Humanist society in my town, and so far haven’t really been able to pinpoint the difference between a humanist and an atheist. From what I have gathered they are pretty much the same thing.

I could go trudge out in a foot of snow talk to them at one of their meetings and get all friendly-like, but it’s saves time to sit at the computer with my feet on the baseboard heater and ask you kind folks if you have any thoughts on that while I continue looking for information on the www.

I’m not lazy just a little ignorant on the subject, I’ve never really explored atheism in any kind of depth after I decided “nope… no god” That was 5 years ago, but for the last couple of days I’ve been doing research like mad and trying to get my poop in a group, so to speak.

And thank you Les for the link!

You’re most welcome. Not a problem asking us questions. Most of us here are happy to lend a hand. I’m going to quote your reply out of sequence as I want to address your last statement first.

I’m not lazy just a little ignorant on the subject, I’ve never really explored atheism in any kind of depth after I decided “nope… no god� That was 5 years ago, but for the last couple of days I’ve been doing research like mad and trying to get my poop in a group, so to speak.

In terms of atheism there’s not a whole lot to explore. Generally speaking about the only thing you can say with certainty about someone who refers to him/herself as an atheist is that they lack a belief in God(s). Beyond that, when you get into specifics, the details can vary from atheist to atheist. Some are pro-choice and some are pro-life. Some (most probably) accept Evolution and some don’t. Some are for the death penalty some are not.

While atheism is a religious viewpoint it’s not a religion so there’s no official body that lays down the rules as to what you have to believe (or not believe) in order to be an atheist. There’s probably enough commonalities among atheists that you can make some reasonable assumptions on some subjects, but the only way to know for sure is to ask the person in question.

When doing some reaserch on the previously mentioned UU’s I found a Humanist society in my town, and so far haven’t really been able to pinpoint the difference between a humanist and an atheist. From what I have gathered they are pretty much the same thing.

While it is true that all Secular Humanists are atheist or agnostic, it’s not necessarily true that all atheists or agnostics are Secular Humanists. I do consider myself a secular humanist for the most part, but I know plenty of atheists who aren’t. Here’s a small bit from the About Page at the Secular Humanism website:

Are Secular Humanists Atheists?

Secular humanists typically describe themselves as atheist (without a belief in a god and very skeptical of the possibility) or agnostic (without a belief in a god and uncertain as to the possibility). Secular humanists hail from widely divergent philosophical and religious backgrounds, ranging from Christian fundamentalism to liberal belief systems to lifelong atheism. Some have achieved a comfortable secular humanist stance after a period of deism. Deists are those who express a vague or mystical feeling that a creative intelligence may be, or was at one time, connected to the universe or involved with its creation, but is now either nonexistent or no longer concerned with its operation.

Secular humanists do not rely upon gods or other supernatural forces to solve their problems or provide guidance for their conduct. They rely instead upon the application of reason, the lessons of history, and personal experience to form an ethical/moral foundation and to create meaning in life. Secular humanists look to the methodology of science as the most reliable source of information about what is factual or true about the universe we all share, acknowledging that new discoveries will always alter and expand our understanding of it and perhaps change our approach to ethical issues as well.

Secular Humanism is recognized by the U.S. Government as a religious organization despite the fact that it’s not entirely like most traditional religions. This is mainly to allow the organization to benefit from the same tax exempt status other religious organizations are granted. Something that annoys many of the traditional religions quite a bit.

I could go trudge out in a foot of snow talk to them at one of their meetings and get all friendly-like, but it’s saves time to sit at the computer with my feet on the baseboard heater and ask you kind folks if you have any thoughts on that while I continue looking for information on the www.

Nothing wrong with finding out what you can about various organizations before you go hunting them down. A good overview of atheism/agnosticism and other related topics can be found at the The Atheism Web.

Well the UU in my area is uber-goddy… their webpage puts a lot of emphasis on worship, and this thing they call the membership book which sounds a little culty to me… of course I’m very paranoid about cults in the first place so I may be jumping at shadows with that, but it doesn’t look like it’s for me.

Les you and my husband are in agreement, I seem to be making things a lot more complicated than they need to be.

I spent a long time being programmed as a kid.. private religious schools, churches who talked in toungues, touchy feely hands on prayer healing stuff and evangelism.. the whole nine yards, I still sometimes have a hard time with the fact that I can think whatever I want and thats ok.

When I started thinking about guidelines to raise my kids with I guess I went out on a search for the atheists manifesto or some such nonsense… but I don’t want them to grow up with the same fear and control I had to live with, so I would be creating the same environment with a different name if I tried to raise them like that…

and I guess that ends my free therepy session for today.