My brother receives Jesus Prayer Rug scam.

Posted by Les on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 at 05:50 AM. Read 20962 times. Tags: , ,
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The prayer rug.


The sales pitch.

My brother contacted me through MSN Messenger last night to tell me about this amazing item he had received in the mail yesterday from the fine folks at Saint Matthew’s Church out of Tulsa, Oklahoma that just sounded amazingly wonderfully amazing: The Anointed Jesus Prayer Rug.

Now most of you don’t know my brother, but he’s largely responsible for my education in evilness and the darker side of my sense of humor is a result of his influence over the years, which is a fact I’m sure he’s quite proud of. This makes it perfectly understandable that someone out there might see him as a soul in desperate need of saving, but it turns out that’s not what this amazingly wonderfully amazing bit of mail was all about. No, the mail assumes that Wes is already saved and it offers to help bring the Lord’s blessing down upon him and his family. In particular, the mailing makes a point of emphasizing the idea that the Lord will grant him a financial blessing. All through the amazingly wonderfully amazing power of the Anointed Jesus Prayer Rug. As a bonus the rug itself will perform a minor miracle to prove its authenticity:

Notice the face of Jesus on this Church Prayer Rug. When you first look, you will notice that His eyes are closed. If you relax and continue looking straight into His eyes, you will see His eyes slowly opening, and He will begin looking back at you. Jesus sees your needs (Philippians 4:19). Use this unusual, important, Church Prayer Rug for tonight only.

Let us ask you: Would you like to have God’s blessings upon Your home, your family and your finances? Say, “Yes, Lord Jesus, I do need Your financial blessings upon me and my family’s finances!” Deuteronomy 28:6 Just put a mark (√) by your needs below, telling us that you want prayer. Also, check any other needs you are facing. Pray about sowing a seed gift to the Lord’s work. Give God your best seed and believe Him for His best blessing (St. Luke 6:38). Now, go and use this Church, Faith, Prayer Rug. The Lord is watching and waiting. You are about to enter the Holy Spirit of God right here in your home, through this faith exercise. Then, it is a must that you return it for another to use.

You can see part of the sales pitch by clicking on the image to the right underneath the amazingly wonderfully amazing Anointed Jesus Prayer Rug. As it turns out this whole thing is another religious based scam that promises the overly credulous true believers riches from God in return for a little “seed money” for Saint Mathew’s Churches, which only exist in the form of a Tulsa post office box, natch. The only person getting rich from this scam is the Rev. James Eugene Ewing who seems to have built up quite a racket with this and other similar scams to the tune of several hundred million dollars:

The approach reaped Ewing and his organization a gross income of more than $100 million since 1993, including $26 million in 1999, the last year Saint Matthew’s made its tax records public. And while much of the money is spent on postage and salaries, Ewing’s company receives nonprofit status and pays no federal taxes.

Though Ewing claims it is a church, Saint Matthew’s Churches, once called St. Matthew Publishing Inc., has no address other than a Tulsa post office box. It has two listed phone numbers in Tulsa and both are answered by a recorded religious message.

The organization is not related to other Tulsa-area churches named St. Matthew’s, though many of them have received calls asking to be removed from its mailing list.

Ole Anthony, founder of the Trinity Foundation, a nonprofit religious watchdog group, has tracked Ewing’s organization for years. The foundation was largely responsible for exposing televangelist Robert Tilton in 1991 after Anthony said he found prayer requests sent to Tilton in Tulsa trash Dumpsters.

Doing a Google search for Jesus Prayer Rug will reveal that a lot of people have written about this scam including our friends over at Chaotic Not Random as well as Ryan Cragun who handily provides a PDF of the complete mailing that he scanned in. This mailing and others like it are sent out at an estimated rate of 1 million a month and are aimed mainly at the hardcore true believers who are poor, uneducated, and most vulnerable to promises of financial reward for a demonstration of faith. The mailing includes a story about a woman who received a $46,000 windfall and another of someone receiving $10,000 after using the prayer rug. Gee, that God Guy sure is generous!

At the time, Tilton and Ewing shared the same Tulsa attorney, J.C. Joyce. Saint Matthew’s Churches is incorporated at Joyce’s downtown Tulsa law office and the organization paid Joyce’s law firm more than $2.6 million for legal services during three years, records show.

Anthony has also obtained documents that describe how Ewing and his organization use demographic data to target the poor.

‘He capitalizes on the isolation of the loneliest and poorest members of our society, promising them magical answers to their fears and needs if only they will demonstrate their faith by sending him money,’ Anthony said.

‘He is, quite literally, the father of the modern-day ‘seed-faith’ concept that fuels the multibillion-dollar Christian industry known as the ‘health-and-wealth gospel.’—Religion in America:  ‘St. Matthew’s Churches’ Mail Ministry is Highly Lucrative

It’s hard to say how illegal this sort of scam might be. While recipients are encouraged to send in money in return for the blessings promised in the mailing, there’s nothing that states it as a requirement so it’s technically not selling you anything other than a false hope. My cynical side says this is what you get when you buy into a concept as ridiculous as Gods and that those folks who are fleeced by it deserve the pain they’re bringing on themselves for being so credulous, but my sense of fair play also seeks to see people like the “good” Reverend here strung up by his testicles for taking advantage of the willfully stupid in the population.

It doesn’t take much cleverness to fleece folks who will believe wholesale in the idea of a Virgin Birth and who put more stock into Genesis than Evolution and that’s the biggest crime Christianity has visited upon so many of its believers. Some of you folks truly are like sheep and you’re just as defenseless when the wolves like Rev. James Eugene Ewing put on sheep’s clothing and come prowling around.

Comments:

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Sadie Jane United States Posted on 12/06/2006 at 12:20 AM

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DOF:

It just seems odd to say that someone of the female gender is a prick as it would be to say someone male is a cunt.

Personally I have yet to hear of a female being referred to as a prick, yet I hear the c-word used as a derogatory term for men quite often. In fact, my little brother deemed our other brother “cuntish” one time when the latter was being particularly disagreeable. Of course, he tries to no longer do it in earshot of me, not since I kicked his ass for saying it. cool grin

I’ve never really thought of derogatory phallic terms such as “dick” or “prick” as being offensive in the same way as the c-word. It may be partly because those terms aren’t generally considered to be quite as strong.

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Thinking is the best way to travel.

LuckyJohn19 Australia Posted on 12/06/2006 at 02:42 AM

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Isn’t it wonderful that one-syllabled words are the most effective - I do so much love the language we are able to play with ... you can tell I’m just using space so I can get to the ‘crux’ of it without appearing in the column on the left - now I’m fucked - I can’t remember what I wanted to say.
One-syllabled words like ‘shit, arse, poop, bum, dick’ - I used to say it at work when I really meant fuck or cunt - I even had my secretary (about ten years my senior) saying ‘shit, arse, poop, bum, dick’ after a month or so.

Too little beer - too much Jack Daniel’s Black Label.
Sadie, sometimes I’ve described a politician (or one of my salesmen) as not having enough cunt in them to be successful; then they become a pussy - ???
It makes no sense, does it?

Many consider cunt obscene and therefore highly offensive, though as with all verbal profanities, others regard it merely as informal but not vulgar slang.

Can I smell your cunt? No? Well, it must be your feet.

For example, in Australia and Great Britain and among some Europeans who speak English as a second language, the word may be used as a colloquial term of endearment (e.g., in such phrases as “You’re a funny cunt, Rodney!” or “Sick cunt!").

Double act Peter Cook and Dudley Moore are often credited with having made the word more acceptable and accessible in the United Kingdom in the 20th Century through their Derek and Clive dialogues. In one sketch from 1976 called “This Bloke Came Up To Me”, the word is used 31 times in the course of two minutes.
Mmm, second time in two days. What a cunt.  wink
Gotta stand up for what you stand for, dontcha?

I must admit I don’t use the word very much but when I do, I mean it ... ??
AND, it’s not often I get called a cunt either but when I do get called a cunt, I know I’ve won.  wink
Reminds me of the difference between a policeman’s baton and a conjurer’s wand - one is used for cunning stunts and the other is used for stunning ....

I think I’m a sick cunt.  LOL
Who started this?

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I’ve discovered that it all boils down to brain wiring: your brain is wired to worship magic or it isn’t, either it’s wired to utilize logic or it isn’t, either it’s analytical of myths or it isn’t.

distant claws Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/07/2006 at 11:19 AM

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Quoting Rose:

Dont’ make up excuses for your actions.
Your all going to regret your words.
This is something you all have to live with not me.

Until Then!

Rose, no action is necessarily right or wrong, it is only your conscience that makes it so, there is no reason to have a concience, it only holds you back; and who is to judge whether murder, theft, arson, etc are necessarily bad things, especially since the frame of mind can vary so much before such actions and the same frames of mind can exist even if no action is taken.
As you probably know your anger is not in keeping with your beliefs, you need to remove fear of hell in order to explore the negative thoughts necessary to understand such actions, which by your beliefs the understanding would be a necessary part of forgivness and compassion.
There is no real reason to follow a good path, sure there may be consequences if you don’t but you accept that as part of the deal in deciding, and who is to say that any of the consequences are necessarily punishments? Being burned and tortured in hell is only an unpleasant thing if you chose to accept pain as existing and negative, though there is no reason not to enjoy it, similarly if hell was isolation from everyone else some may thrive in loneliness, the essence of happiness has no reason for the direction it has.
Afterall living a good life only for the reward of heaven is a selfish motive and is not unconditional love. Even unconciousness is nothing to fear because if you were unconcious you couldn’t care about it, indeed being concious all the time would get dull, but it makes evolutionary sense that people should fear unconsciousness via death, and this i believe is one reason people turn to religion, though that doesn’t make religion true or untrue, i think the whole debate should shift into science, afterall there would need to be a link to physics in order for us to be able to escape/enter physical bodies before/after life if religion was true, also science has no way of disproving a link it hasn’t yet found and the more lectures you sit through the more you realise nobody has a clue what’s going on, science is not completely understood when it comes to the reasons behind the accepted fundamental principles like why time goes forward, why positive and negative charges attract, why spin changes energy level, etc

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 12/07/2006 at 11:42 AM

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DC: there is no reason to have a concience, it only holds you back

I would imagine that if we had not evolved a conscience, we would not as a species have had much of an opportunity to evolve at all.

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Thinking is the best way to travel.

itdontmatter United States Posted on 12/07/2006 at 12:03 PM

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After all, living a good life only for the reward of heaven is a selfish motive and is not unconditional love.

I have known a great many christians who have led what they may have considered to be a “good life” that was dictated by the preaching of their religious leaders, supposedly based upon an interpretation of the bible.  These people believe that if there is no punishment for doing something immoral or unethical, that it was OK, and live their life that way. 

One example is a person here at work who is a rabid fundy.  The asshole insists upon parking his car in a marked motorcycle parking area.  Somebody one time asked him why he did it, he said that he did it because there was no punishment associated with doing it.

I see this sort of attitude all of the time associated with high profile fundy ministers and christian republican politicians. 

While Hilary was campaigning for her Senate seat, a christian group produced a political ad that opens with images of First Lady and Senate candidate Hillary Clinton. Then an announcer says, “It’s rumored Hillary Clinton is a lesbian. It’s rumored that Hillary Clinton supports homosexual marriage. It’s rumored Hillary Clinton will leave her husband after taking office. It was rumored Bill Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinsky. Sometimes rumors are true.”

distant claws Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/07/2006 at 12:27 PM

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Hey itdontmatter i agree completely, they don’t really think about whether it’s right or not, just look at the limitations that comes as part of a package of that religion, all religions essentially want the same thing so why they fight i don’t know, it disagrees with the principles behind it. i don’t understand why fundies go word for word, surely there are some changes made to the bible for personal gain or misguided good intentions, and i doubt that even if god did exist he would set arbitary contradicting laws for the hell of it and punish those who digressed

Ah, you may find this amusing on the hilary clinton subject:
http://www.henryk-broder.de/html/fdt_nachgeschmack.html

itdontmatter United States Posted on 12/07/2006 at 03:43 PM

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distant claws; That is a great billboard. 

Fundy church leaders interpret the bible as they see fit (they claim that god is guiding them in how they interpret it).  Church leaders also pick and choose what they deem should be obeyed.  Nobody knows what the original versions of the texts in the bible said, they were hand transcribed over and over.  Many of the people doing the transcriptions were illiterate and many bible scholars believe that at least some parts of the bible have been deliberately edited to change meanings.  Translators have also had opportunities to color what the bible says.

The old testament says not to eat or wear certain things in certain combinations, which christians totally ignore.  When asked about why they don’t follow the food and clothing laws, they say that they follow the NEW testament.  When christians condemn gays, they mention a number of different bible verses, many of which are in the OLD testament—which they say they don’t follow. 

The Church of England says that Christians are still bound by the moral commandments, although not the ceremonial, ritual or civil laws of the old testament.  It sounds like a Republican lawyer wrote that.

Michael Peacock United States Posted on 12/07/2006 at 04:19 PM

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Sexy Sadie: I would imagine that if we had not evolved a conscience, we would not as a species have had much of an opportunity to evolve at all.

No doubt - the fact that the majority of us have what might pass as a conscience implies that it provides some sort of selection advantage.

Ages Ago, Les Said: Awwww. Poor Rose. I didn’t mean to upset her so. Now she’s gone all potty mouth on us. My evil plan to corrupt her is working! Muhahahahhahahahahahaha!

At least you’re working to live up to the site’s middle name!

DC: After all, living a good life only for the reward of heaven is a selfish motive and is not unconditional love.

Agreed.  You would think that any good life would be one that makes you somewhat less annoying. The fundie good life? Annoying.  Any life that has the result of simply pissing the rest of us off should result in some sort of eternal punishment.  If only ...

Rose: ... unintelligible drivel ... CHICKEN SHIT ... unintelligible drivel ...

I wouldn’t add Rose to my ignore list, especially now that she’s finally starting to make some sense!

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“When the government fears the people, it is liberty. When the people fear the government, it is tyranny.”
-- Thomas Payne

My Name is Michael - Brother Neutron Bomb of Uncanny Honesty - Peacock, and I write at The Smug Baldy Speaks

distant claws Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/07/2006 at 10:16 PM

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Quoting Michael Peacock

Any life that has the result of simply pissing the rest of us off should result in some sort of eternal punishment

But it’s so fun… as long as i have opposition which can’t argue my general message down (minor details don’t count) it’s a kick to piss people off on both sides of the arguement for the hell of it, I’m doing y’all a service by extending your patience limit whilst making a points that are often overlooked and highly suited to forums of this topic.

Sexy Sadie: I would imagine that if we had not evolved a conscience, we would not as a species have had much of an opportunity to evolve at all.

I suppose society itself would be very different without conscience and maybe on a large scale self-destructing, but evolution is statistical and on an individual scale it makes sense to me the greedy creature that grabs all the food and mates without giving a damn is more probable to reproduce than something that felt bad about it and so didn’t gather these resources, so you would expect a gene for conscience to be phased out if it existed, either evolution hasn’t had enough time to do this, or conscience is a side effect of improved brain function which has a net evolutionary advantage, or it simply may not be a genetic thing

Lisa Cummins United States Posted on 12/13/2006 at 02:58 PM

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You all are miss interpreting the whole idea of life.
You don’t do things for the fun of it especially
if your being dishonest, cruel or down right hateful.
We are here to see that our life mission is completed.
Theses are tests my friend. Don’t you see this is not our way out.
People don’t realize that we don’t have a choice
here when it comes to being rated as a Christian.
Everyones, goals are different and, we must try our best to meet them.
We’re not trying to live our lives to meet the good standards of being able to go to heaven.

You live your life right because, that’s the way it should be.
Of course we want to go to heaven but don’t make it sound like this is the only reason to live right.
Your intentions or wrong somewhat and, if you dn’t comprehend all that needs improving your tests will fail.
Our time here in this life has to go forward for one reason.
There’s many new fundamental laws within our boundairies that we must understand.

We h ave to move if not this world would not be counted as a part of the universe.
Scientists are just as confused about the laws of the universe and, many wrong doings or being miss understood.
Our solar system is a charge of energy and, it rotates over and, over many, many times.
This is how we survive on this planet. Take all your thoughts of ignorance, cruelty, and, evilness and, set it aside.
If you don’t wake up to the real reason for living you will be set back many of your years of learning.

Your intentions of not following a good path is not what you should control.
You should control your thoughts and, your decisions, your choices in life.
We have this all for a reason that’s why we all use it.
My words are sincere and, I myself believe we all have to began by accepting that we must not ignore the signs of God.
My only fears now or the people who live there life for all the wrong reasons.
Please be persistant and, don’t ignore what God is trying to tell us.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 12/13/2006 at 03:09 PM

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Rose?  Is that you?  LOL

Sadie Jane United States Posted on 12/13/2006 at 03:41 PM

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Lisa: You all are miss interpreting the whole idea of life.

I don’t think so. The whole idea of life is to hang on and enjoy the ride.

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Thinking is the best way to travel.

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/13/2006 at 04:03 PM

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You all are miss interpreting the whole idea of life.

Life sucks, then you die.

DOF, once you’ve seen a Rose-imposter, you’ve seen it all.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/13/2006 at 04:55 PM

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Ah, you poor benighted athiests. What you do in life is of no consequence to God. It doesn’t matter what you have done, nor whether it was done for love. The ONLY way to gain the kingdom of Heaven is by love of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If you have belief that His is the Power and the Glory, then you shall be admitted to the loving Bosom of God.

Which means Rose gets to room with Adolf Hitler, who had his own, very special way, of showing his love for Jesus.

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I know of only two things that are infinite- The universe, and human stupidity.
And I’m not sure about the universe.
(Einstein)

Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/13/2006 at 05:44 PM

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LC: You should control your thoughts and, your decisions, your choices in life

I know you mean well, but you must be aware that fear of not achieving something is a common control tool for religion, I don’t think you are delibreately trying to use that tool, and in your mind are trying to stop us making a mistake, but whoever this kind of thing originated from may be consiously doing so. If we are making mistakes let it be so, it would be deeper learning than just being warned off, and negative influences must have a place in society as they are necessary for people to become stronger, more patient, more aware of things, etc. Afterall why else would we be in less than perfect conditions now if what you say was true? Also if god did exist why couldn’t he create people who knew all this stuff without having to be tested? Why would he create people at all and what created him/her? Why would a god want people to move in a good direction? As I’ve said for science, theology also has the problem of explaining it’s founding principles. Certainly theology has the advantage of decreasing suicide and making (at least some) want to lead a moral life but if god did exist, and he made us forget knowledge of all this before birth, clearly knowing it could hinder what we were supposed to do, maybe it is like an emergancy stop button for people going too far off the rails. Anyway aside from why humans have feelings why should emphasising one over another necessarily good/bad? I eat food because I don’t like the pain from hunger, but there is no reason why i should’nt enjoy it, it’s just a state you’re in. If existance is nothing more than a series of tests what’s the point? indeed what’s the point in wanting to progress? There isn’t anything bad about permanent unconsiousness (how could you care if you were?) so perhaps that is the better alternative to continual crap existance, if it can be done.

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Gfuqusilph! Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/14/2006 at 05:19 PM

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Hey guys ‘n’ gals! I came across your beautiful website only yesterday and spent over three hours reading the “paranormal picture” thread, very amusing by the way!

Rose:- You are, to say the least, the most predictably stupid sorry-excuse for an individual I have ever had the misfortune of coming across on a website.

Not only do you keep regurgitating the same old illogical garbage about god ‘n’ jesus and all that other man(-)ufactured shite, but you seem to lack the ability to use the logic centre of your brain to grasp some of the simple concepts and beliefs, or lack of, of the people here.

So let me put it in black and white for ya, ok you crettin’?:

(((PEOPLE HERE DON’T GIVE A RANCID FUCK ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS!)))

No wonder god invented cancer…

You, my dear, are an uberetard.

“dear god, please give this deluded creature a brain…

A-SSOLE!”

Enough said.....for now.

Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/14/2006 at 05:45 PM

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Gfuqusilph! - There may be repeated use of the same concepts, and the logic may be questionable, but don’t make it personal. We need to educate people, not scare them off because they don’t fit in or provoke them into an even less logical, emotionally charged response. Tackle the issues, not the person or you won’t be taken seriously.

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

Last_Hussar Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/14/2006 at 08:32 PM

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We need to educate people, not scare them off because they don’t fit in or provoke them into an even less logical, emotionally charged response. Tackle the issues, not the person or you won’t be taken seriously.

DC- Are you sure you’ve seen the sort of trolls Les gets.

Don.

There is only so much tolerance in the world.

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I know of only two things that are infinite- The universe, and human stupidity.
And I’m not sure about the universe.
(Einstein)

Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 12/14/2006 at 09:15 PM

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LH: DC- Are you sure you’ve seen the sort of trolls Les gets.

To be honest not really, I joined more or less just before Don got banned. Without banning the only real way I can think of for dealing with trolls involves a change on the troll’s part; since such people seem to just reflect back anything they don’t like without taking it in or submitting, my hope is to reason with them so that they bear new ideas in mind without it seeming a personal attack. Being new my patience hasn’t yet been taken to it’s limit, and looking back on old threads I think Les has been very patient, ultimately the Don thing was going nowhere as it was.

I hope while I still have patience I can save some long-term grief and move the trolls on to more reasoned thought. Taking my patience to it’s limits may be an oppertunity to extend it, and without any commitment to a thread I can just step back if I feel I need to before I do any harm.

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

elwedriddsche United States Posted on 12/14/2006 at 11:01 PM

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Reasoning with trolls is not a viable option. You can set the public record straight, but other than that you want to deprive them of what they’re after—attention. Starve them or wipe their posts like the graffiti they are.

The sundry True Believers™ are a different story, but the question is if they are willing to be reasoned with. If they cannot be reasoned with, sooner or later the line into trolldom will crossed and there’s little point in continuing any exchange.

Finally, there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with calling them as you see them, provided they have had a sporting chance to make their case and you can take what you dish out. What’s wrong is to gang up on somebody new who happens to see things differently.

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Science is answers that must always be questioned.
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that must never be questioned.
Politics is answers that lobbyists pay for.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 12/15/2006 at 12:22 AM

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In general I agree with DC on this.  Just ran across this quote, and it seems appropriate somehow:

“Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope.”
- P. J. O’Rourke

... I would never shoot a dairy cow but will be sure to feel a bit guilty next time I make fun of a born-again Christian.

Les United States Posted on 12/15/2006 at 12:30 AM

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I think anyone who spends a small amount of time perusing the archives will quickly see for themselves that when someone comes across as being earnest in having a discussion then my patience can be quite long no matter how obtuse they may seem to be.

For awhile even the average troll would be given more than his due, but these days my patience for those fellows is much thinner.

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Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. - David Viaene

Aa United States Posted on 01/04/2007 at 04:59 AM

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Theres a difference between having faith in a higher power and sending hard-earned dough to some scam artist in tulsa. I’m not saying you ought to believe in God, but I think its pretty obnoxious to act like it’s irrational. The idea of God has existed for as long as Man has. You can explain away God all you want with science, but the fact is, we exist, the universe exists, and evidently, it didn’t always. I know people are working on explaining how the universe came into being, even though a fundamental law is that you can’t get something from nothing, but they will never be able to test their theories in a repeatable, controlled, observable ways. It will always be just heresay. So why is it so offensive to you to believe in a God, and if there is a God, why is it so irrational to believe that he could do miracles, or cause things to happen in ways we don’t understand? It seems so arrogant to me that you think you’ve evolved past religion so far as to compare simple faith with being desperate and simple-minded enough to be duped by a blinking rug addressed to “resident”.

Bahamat Great Britain (UK) Posted on 01/04/2007 at 06:37 AM

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Quoting Aa:

but the fact is, we exist, the universe exists, and evidently, it didn’t always

I was thinking recently you can allow an infinite number of any situation at all to exist within an infinite number of imaginary dimensions, you don’t need rules for the fundamental laws that link a finite number of dimensions, they only have to be possible to guarantee it can occur an infinite number of times because it has an infinite number of oppertunities if there are infinite imaginary dimensions.

Would you need something to imagine it though? not really, as an example you could have a dice in a cylinder, you don’t know there is a dice there so you don’t know the chance of the upper face reading 6, indeed you don’t know that 6 is a possible outcome for that system, and yet because it is possible it will occur eventually in enough of these systems despite there being nothing knowing of the system. Even if the parameters of probability aren’t defined, as long as it is possible, possibility alone is all the reason you need to have arbitary laws of physics

Because imaginary dimensions allow things to exist, I predict there will be some universes where god exists and some where he doesn’t, some will be identical, some different marginally or radically, some with completely different physics or even complete void with no physics. One of these imaginary dimensions could allow consciousness to exist without a physical body, but there would need to be some link to physical dimensions if conscousness was to be able to physically influence the world, similarly god could only create the world if he had the physical means, and it is possible that although he didn’t do the creating he existed in parallel.

I have written a wiki article on this, check thought experiment under:
http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/wiki/Special:Titles

even though a fundamental law is that you can’t get something from nothing

You can’t get just matter (as quarks) alone out of nothing, you also need to get an equal amount antimatter, and I assume such a thing exists as antienergy that allows the apparent getting of energy out of nothing. You would expect these things to be in equal amounts and cancel if they met, however they behave differently when time is going forward due to assymetries which caused some antiquarks to turn into electrons:
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/99/990301.ktev.shtml
However I’m not completely satisfied with this because it would be infinitely unlikely that after some canecllation with quarks and conversion to electrons you would get the exact 3:1 quark:electron ratio of an atom, so there may be some free uncombined quarks floating around. My theory is that some of the antimatter in addition to a smaller amount of matter could have been projected back in time from the big bang (the mid-point of time)

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You don’t need to end all existence to end all suffering

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 01/04/2007 at 09:22 AM

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Aa: “The idea of God has existed for as long as Man has.”

Actually it hasn’t; monotheism has existed for roughly an eyeblink of the timescale of humanity.  If you want that old-time religion, you need to start worshipping the sun, clouds, trees, your ancestors.

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