I came onto the internet specifically to look up Redeker after seeing a bit about the Le Figaro story.  I was all ready to be angered at the Muslims.  However upon reading the original I felt that all he was doing was saying my mythology is nicer than yours- ‘isn’t Jesus nice’.  The Muslims are still COMPLETELY wrong for the death threats- if the guy wants to make a prat of himself then he has the right to do so.

However if you think this is a ‘Islam’ thing, try walking into a Redneck Church and saying “You are all complete idiots for believing Young Earth Creation, Flood, Resurrection’ etc etc- Wonder if they will respect your right to free speech.  How about those nice evangelicals out there who are all for forcible conversion. Allah and genocide? What about the Old Testament?

However if you think this is a ‘Islam’ thing, try walking into a Redneck Church and saying “You are all complete idiots for believing Young Earth Creation, Flood, Resurrection’ etc etc- Wonder if they will respect your right to free speech. How about those nice evangelicals out there who are all for forcible conversion. Allah and genocide? What about the Old Testament?

I don’t completely agree with the observation that walking into a “redneck church” and making an ass of yourself is the same as freedom of speech. Jesus has been mocked, ridiculed, spoofed numerous times - without death warrants issued on the behalf of Christians. But try to paint Islam’s icons in a negative light and see what happens....you get marchers on the streets in England with signs proclaiming “death to those who oppose Islam” and, the ironic to the nth degree signage, “Freedom of speech is overrated” and some will even don fake suicide bomb gear.

Having said that, however, if the shoe was on the other foot (in other words, Islamic countries were the world powers and Christians countries were not) then I don’t doubt that the Christians would be as overly hyper-sensitive to unflattering representations of their icons.

PricklyPear: Having said that, however, if the shoe was on the other foot (in other words, Islamic countries were the world powers and Christians countries were not) then I don’t doubt that the Christians would be as overly hyper-sensitive to unflattering representations of their icons.

Yeah but in response I think there’d be more ‘fuck you’ and less ‘sorry’.

Yeah but in response I think there’d be more ‘fuck you’ and less ‘sorry’

Yeah but in response I think there’d be more ‘fuck you’ and less ‘sorry’.

Beg to differ...Ever notice that when a particular group gets repressed (or “feels” marginalized) the radical elements tend to take over. Within the Islamic community it’s, among many other things, the suicide bombers and their ilk who tend to make the whole of them appear extremely bad.

Within the Christian community there are similar extremists who “feel” that they are not respected and justify their actions with murder. Think abortion doctors. And what about white supremesists? Are they Christian? Are there any other example which come to mind? Would, like the present day Islamic community, the radical Christian elements step up if their community, as a whole, was under the heel of a boot (or felt like they were)? That was the point of my entry - to a totally hypothetical situation.

So I’d have to say “NO” to your “there’d be more “fuck you” and less “sorry"” LJ; the Christians, or as any other group rallying the troops around their idealogical flag, would likely react in a violently similar way as the Muslims.

So I’d have to say “NO” to your “there’d be more “fuck you” and less “sorry"” LJ; the Christians, or as any other group rallying the troops around their idealogical flag, would likely react in a violently similar way as the Muslims.

Pear, reread what LJ wrote in the context of this thread.  You have mistaken what he said.

Nice bait and switch.

I already said what I thought the Pope should have done concerning the Muslims: not rile them up (what good did that do anyone?) and offer to talk to them.  You asked again what I think he should say, so I broadened the subject matter.  If that’s “bait and switch”, so be it.

Oh, and since we’re being hypothetical here, trying to imagine how Christians would behave under Islam’s boot, I’ll add a personal observation: cultures which have not experienced the Enlightenment (in some sense) have no sense of irony.  In order to have a sense of irony, you must be able to step outside yourself and assume a different viewpoint, which is difficult if you haven’t been exposed to worldviews other than your own on an even playing field.

No scientific support for this- just mho.

Pear: So I’d have to say “NO”

You maybe right ... but I’m lead to believe that the Sermon on the Mount cancelled out or softened much of psychoticism (?) of xianity resulting in the later formations of Quakers, Anabaptists, Mennonites and Amish, etc.

The best-known portions of the Sermon comprise the Beatitudes, found at the beginning of the section. The Sermon also contains the Lord’s Prayer and the injunctions to “resist not evil” and “turn the other cheek”, as well as Jesus’ version of the Golden Rule. Other lines often quoted are the references to “salt of the Earth,” “light of the world,” and “judge not, lest ye be judged.”

In the Qur’an there is no such equivalent - it’s left as ‘death to the infidels’ except in Sufism which is more esoteric.
But I may be completely wrong. 
And ‘a fact’ I just read about Sufism: Iran is home to the largest number of Sufis who are, by the way, reviled by the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.
All the above may or may not be relevant to the discussion.
My head’s a bit stuffed from a snot-running (not runny) nose - the first one in over 5 years and my Copy/Paste and Tags facility is spasmodically fucked so I’ll have to close down.

Zilch, in what sense is Islam under Christianity’s boot?

No fair saying “crusades” - that’s a ‘was’, not an ‘is’.  In today’s world there are a billion Muslims all over the world.  Some of them are sitting on vast oil wealth, though that doesn’t seem to translate into much improvement in the lives of the rest of the world’s Muslims.

LJ, I think you’re pretty much right about differences between the scriptures of Islam and Christianity.

Zilch, in what sense is Islam under Christianity’s boot?

Well, all those shameless Western hussies parading around the internet without chadors are pretty oppressive, are they not?

No, if Muslims are under any boot right now, it’s more likely to be their own boot.  Of course, the poor everywhere, Muslim or not, are under a variety of economic boots, starting with the landowners in their own countries, up to the fat cat capitalists in the First World.

Where can I find these shameless Western hussies on the Internet?  You know, purely for “research"…

Psst- DoF- don’t tell anyone else, but here’s a hot link for you.  Enjoy!

My eyes!  I’m joining the Jihad tomorrow! 

I don’t completely agree with the observation that walking into a “redneck church” and making an ass of yourself is the same as freedom of speech.

Isn’t this what Redeker has effectively done? The ‘Redneck church’ was hypothetical- a stand in for ‘communicate to as many as possible christian literalists’

How is stating the latest in science ‘making an ass of myself’, given the overwhelming evidence for an old earth without the flood, but with evolution.

i’ve just read what les had posted anyways..
i would like to say one thing and that it seems that when the pop described muslims or islam which is the same thing violant he forgot all about the cusade and the ugly ways that christians used to torture muslims
thank you

You make a good point Hanin, though I can assure you we have not forgotten the crusades at all; we have discussed them elsewhere and will discuss them again. Especially because many Christians, if they could, would start new crusades tomorrow.

I hope you are not thinking that historic injustices against Muslims somehow excuses riots, violence, and threats today?  Christianity and Islam both advertise themselves as religions of peace and we would like to hold them both to that promise.

What DOF said.