I hadn’t quite thought of it that way, Les but you’re right. It IS ironic, and odd that no one has brought the issue up when they bring in Muslim leaders to criticize the comment.

Even though it is clear that the behavior of some Muslims have done the same thing, it would be only fair to point out that the pope’s comments/quote constitute a vast over-generalization that encourages people to think in terms of stereotypes, fosters divisiveness, and promotes hatred.

Guess he isn’t so infallible, after all.

Promotes hatred?  Oh, sister. Here’s a link for ya.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/18/AR2006091800992.html

Consigliere,

I’m not in any way justifying or excusing the conduct of Muslims who behaved this way—nor am I saying that we should suppress free speech. However, I am simply saying that the pope’s comments were inappropriate for a world leader and highly divisive. Since some Catholics take his word as emanating out of the mouth of God himself, his comments were (at a minimum) extremely ill-advised.

He’s apologized and that should be the end of it, but since he was talking about a religious group that is dominant in many countires that still subscribe to a tribal and survival culture, the fall out is exactly what you might expect. This intelligent, educated pope should know that and shouldda known better.

To be honest, I’m not sure what the Pope was apologizing for.  Telling the truth?  Catholicism seems to have gotten traction and been able to pull out of the century in which Islam is currently stuck.

DOF:

What some thought the pope should say:

http://jimtreacher.com/archives/001472.html

Dof, In my opinion, the pope has apologised for exactly what he should apologise for—upsetting people. He’s certainly entitled to a personal view, but when he speaks in a public forum, for all intent and purposes, for many people in the world, he speaks with the voice of the Christian God. This is something entirely different from drawing sketches that express a personal and individual view.

With all due respect to Les, I would argue that it isn’t sufficient to look at people from a tribal culture and tell them to “grow the fuck up.” That approach hasn’t proven to be very useful anywhere in the world where western and tribal cultures have met head-on.

NOTE TO ALL MUSLIMS.  YOU JUST DESTROYED A CHURCH THAT DOESN’T AGREE WITH THE POPE.  WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID!?! 

Our media should start mocking stupid Muslims for doing things like this.  ...Or we should find some other way of letting them know they’re idiots.

I didn’t really know anything about the Muslims before The War.  ...Now I know a bit about them, and I think I respected them A LOT MORE before I did.

Are all Muslims stupid, or just most of them?

I would like to ask the pope what purpose his comments served?  Why try to infuriate people?  What is the purpose?  The real problem here is religions not being acceptant of other religions.  Understand that people have differing opinions and move on.  The only reason I can see for a justification of the pope’s comments is to create the reaction that it created.  To prove legitimacy of one religion over another.  What a waste of time and energy!

Shelly, read the text of the Pope’s speech; it was a scholarly call for the cessation of violent coercion that once characterized the Catholic church and still characterizes Islam.  With some quibbles I would say what the Pope said was broadly true; need he apologize for telling the truth?  Must leaders avoid telling the truth so no one will be upset? 

Those who distorted his words to imflame the ignorant need to apologize.  And those who brandish the sword over words need to apologize, and lay down the sword.

Dof—Thank you. I’ve now read the full speech. I’m not quibbling with the message in general, and as I said, I don’t think that the pope needs to apologise for telling the truth. I do think that his argument would have been complete without this specific quote and that the quote could have been predicted to lead to yet more violence and divisiveness.

Yes, it is a scholarly argument, but it was inevitable that the quote would be used to inflame an already tense situation. I’d agree that those who used his words to “inflame the ignorant” should apologise, but the pope threw the weapon in their hands and they’ve demonstrated on any number of occasions that they believe that end result justifies all means.

We now have Muslims rioting and burning churches and Non-Muslims asking whether all Muslims are “stupid.” Is that useful or productive or likely to lead to reasonable dialogue on the topic?

The message about non-violence somehow needs to be heard by the very people committing these acts, and if the pope’s intent was to encourage scholarly Muslims to raise the issue of violence and faith, he has made it nearly impossible for them to do so.

if the pope’s intent was to encourage scholarly Muslims to raise the issue of violence and faith, he has made it nearly impossible for them to do so.

Shelly, at the risk of belaboring the point, he is not the one who has made it impossible to raise the issue.  That liability accrues exclusively to the terrorists.  The quote he used is both relevant and as true today as when it was first spoken. 

What the pope said needs to be expressed by people everywhere each in their own perspective.  Granting censorship to the irony-immune because they may become violent really hands them the victory. 

I see your point, but I disagree with it.

Shelly, at the risk of belaboring the point, he is not the one who has made it impossible to raise the issue...The quote he used is both relevant and as true today as when it was first spoken.

Ditto.

Shelley, your reasoning seems to go like this:

Islam has an unquestioned history of violence.  At times, Islam still utilizes violence to get its way.  That is a problem today.  We can’t talk about that problem because some Muslims will get mad and become violent. 

Let’s see if that logic holds:

Johnny has an unquestioned history of violent temper tantrums.  At times, Johnny still utilizes violent temper tantrums to manipulate those around him.  That is a problem today.  We can’t tell Johnny about his problems because Johnny will get mad and become violent. 

It’s time for Johnny and the Muslims to, as Les said, “grow the fuck up already.”

I’m not really for violence.. But I don’t blame them for being so pissed.. alls the christian religion has ever done to them was start problems and conflicts.. and i don’t think any religion has any right to enforce any type of opinion on another religion, because they are all equally gay, and when one bad-mouths another.. shit hits the fan.

innn fact.. this is probably some pre-meditated plan from the catholic church to start problems. to make muslims even look more violent and savage then they’ve allready been made out to be..

and look at history.. look at what the christians have done to so many other peoples.. they’ve got no right to say shit about the muslims or anybody else for that matter.

On the one hand, Christians such as the pope have a lot of nerve speaking out against the evils of violent Islam, as Christianity is also a religion with a very bloody past. On the other hand, this is the second highly publicized instance this year of Muslims reacting violently to unfavorable words/opinions about them.

Shelley: With all due respect to Les, I would argue that it isn’t sufficient to look at people from a tribal culture and tell them to “grow the fuck up.” That approach hasn’t proven to be very useful anywhere in the world where western and tribal cultures have met head-on.

I agree.

because they are all equally gay, and when one bad-mouths another.. shit hits the fan.

Right.  When a blasphemous hit movie pulls in megabucks the Catholic church issues a Papal bull calling for the death of everyone involved, and says it’s a religious obligation for Catholics to slay those who profit from the movie industry.

They may be all equally gay, but they’re not all equally violent.  What happened 600 years ago is not as important as what’s happening now.  One of the lessons of history is not to repeat it.

They may be all equally gay, but they’re not all equally violent.  What happened 600 years ago is not as important as what’s happening now.  One of the lessons of history is not to repeat it.

What happened 600yrs ago might not be important.. but for the christian religion to badmouth muslims.. its just very hypocritical.  And don’t forget.. history allways repeats itself.. who knows.. the 2nd coming of the crusades?

Quick question DOF: if Islam is a violent religion and there are over 1 billion people practicing the religion, wouldn’t the entire world be in chaos right now?

El Josh:

Rarely have I ever encountered someone with such eloquence in their post. 

First,

I’m not really for violence.. But I don’t blame them for being so pissed..

They weren’t just pissed.  They were violent.  So do you or don’t you blame them for being violent? That is the issue.  Whether you understand their feelings or their inner child is really not relevant.

Second,

alls the christian religion has ever done to them was start problems and conflicts.

Nice choice of words there with alls.  Sound foundation for it too. You built up to your conclusion block by block and then topped it perfectly.  You see brainiac, you need to establish the factual background that supports your conclusion first.  Then you get to make the conclusion.  Otherwise, it appears to people, as it did to me, that you are just talking out of your ass.

Furthermore, it seems to me the 65 year old woman that was murdered by these pissed Muslims was working in a hospital.  She was a Christian.  Alls you got is an overinclusive conclusion that is easily demolished.

Third,

and i don’t think any religion has any right to enforce any type of opinion on another religion, because they are all equally gay,

Next time you bother to “think”, think again. The Pope was expressing an opinion.  He was not enforcing an opinion.  How would one enforce the opinion he expressed exactly?  I doubt you even know what the opinion was. What you want is a muzzle on free speech.

Except your own.  You feel free to then go on and use sexual orientation as a slur applying the slur to a majority of the world’s citizens. I think most of the posters here would wonder how sexual orientation is a slur at all and why you would use it as one.  Why did you choose to use sexual orientation as a slur?

Fourth,

innn fact.. this is probably some pre-meditated plan from the catholic church to start problems. to make muslims even look more violent and savage then they’ve allready been made out to be..

Oh yes.  A conspiracy theory. Nice postulation, since so many conspiracy theories are just money.  And you know what, I bet the Catholic Church has targeted you to.  And they are working with the CIA, just like they did when they simulated that whole we landed on the moon thing. Get a fucking life.

and look at history.. look at what the christians have done to so many other peoples.. they’ve got no right to say shit about the muslims or anybody else for that matter.

Very Old Testament of you here.  Quite surprising in fact that you would want to visit the father’s sins upon the sons.  Applying your logic to you, you don’t have a right to speak either about anybody including the Catholic Church given your citizenship. 

It is rare for me to ever say this, but you are truly an idiot.

for the christian religion to badmouth muslims.. its just very hypocritical.

It would be hypocritical for one of the original crusaders to badmouth Islamic violence.  It is not hypocritical for the current pope to do so. 

But the terrorists have something in common with our current president; they seem to want a final battle.  Their attitude seems to be; “Bring it on!” Sadly, they may get their wish.

Consi you fed the troll.  Ah shit… Pandora’s box has been open.

Webs asks: “Quick question DOF: if Islam is a violent religion and there are over 1 billion people practicing the religion, wouldn’t the entire world be in chaos right now?”

Quick answer: Because fortunately, most Muslims are no better at practicing their religion than most Christians.  Most religious people claim the identity because it is necessary for living wherever they live. 

You don’t see Dan Brown living secretly under police protection, but Salmon Rushdie had to. 

Christianity was once more violent than it is now.  I hope a similar transformation occurs for Islam.

Consigliere

you douche.

Look at this from the muslims point of view.  and seriously.. correcting my grammar is a cry out that you are mad at me for expressing my thoughts.  shut up.

would you like to use violence against me?

Because fortunately, most Muslims are no better at practicing their religion than most Christians.

Actually I think of any religion, those that practice Islam know and understand it better than most Christians understand Christianity and most catholics understand Catholicism. 

I think really what is going on here is there are a lot of radical fundamentalist in Islam that got pissed.  If these fundamentalists in any way were representative of the whole then we could certainly be guaranteed that there would have been riots and church burnings in America and probably France (both of which have a high Muslim population).  But this has not been the case yet.

Idiot said: would you like to use violence against me?

No.