The acid test is would you feel the same way if it was a pig and the Jewish community complaining?

Yes I would. My Jewish friends that keep Kosher don’t have anything particular against pigs or pictures of pigs, they just don’t eat them and never have shunned me because I do.

We’ll keep this in mind the next time they get bent out of shape by a cartoon of their prophet.

Look, guys! It’s a cartoon of the prophet!!! 

Can somebody please photoshop the photo and put a turban and a bomb on the puppy?

And what Les said. As far as I’m concerned, these holier-than-thou “community leaders” should be sent back to where they came from—or to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

The acid test is would you feel the same way if it was a pig and the Jewish community complaining?

As soon as the Jewish community threatens to get violent if their ridiculous demands aren’t met.

I think its silly as well.  However it may be a combination of a few people looking to take offence, and well known right wing paper Daily Mail looking to blow it out of proportion.  I doubt if there are crowds of upset Muslims in Tayside, or none of them would be watching TV incase adverts for Churchill insurance came on.

Its up there with Falwell hates atheists, ergo ***Dave hates atheists.

(How did the vicar get on with the asterisks at the baptism, we wonder)

(How did the vicar get on with the asterisks at the baptism, we wonder)

I think “Ekke Ekke Ekke F’tang F’tang Olé Biscuitbarrel” got shortened to ***Dave.

The story was untrue.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2008/07/02/newsstory11590817t0.asp

THF, the article you linked to doesn’t say the story is untrue, but that it might be overblown. The Courier story says that:

Dundee councillor Mohammed Asif claimed the postcard, advertising Tayside Police’s new non-emergency telephone number, could offend some Muslims because it features a black German shepherd dog sitting in a police officer’s hat.

So there was actually someone complaining about it who claimed to represent the Muslim community. The article you linked to suggests that may not be correct:

But Mr Asif’s comments have won little support among the public or Dundee’s Islamic community.

Last night Mahmud Sarwar, trustee of the Scottish Islamic and Cultural Centre and the Dura Street mosque, appealed for calm.

He said he had no problems with the postcard and called on homeowners and local businesses to display them as it is in the public interest.

“I’ve not heard anything about that from members of the community,” Mr Sarwar said.

[...] Mr Sarwar also queried whether the concerns raised by Councillor Asif belonged to him or his constituents.

“Maybe that is his own thinking—everyone has the right to say things regarding their own wishes,” he said.

It does appear to me that the issue has been overblown.

IBM used to have (probably still does) a group that vets program icons.  Among their rules were “no body parts” and “no animals”, for exactly these sorts of cultural reasons.  So, for instance, a “thumbs up” icon, or an icon of a string tied around an index finger (for a “reminder” application) would have been rejected.

You can say it’s silly, and I can agree with you, but there it is....

Kinda like how Bill Donahue claims to speak for all Catholics, I suppose.

Thanks for the clearing up.

You mean he doesn’t represent all Catholics?

Man DOF is in trouble now.  He’s gonna have the PETA fanatics after him for using a dog as a suicide bomber.

I believe “Thumbs up” doesn’t have the same connotations everywhere as it does in the west. Hand gestures are so varied across the world that I don’t blame IBM- the last letter they want is “Sir, I return the software package, as to run the program I have to click on a icon suggesting I am a cuckold.”

Oh and DoF- is his middle name ‘Ni!’?

Man DOF is in trouble now.  He’s gonna have the PETA fanatics after him for using a dog as a suicide bomber.

PETA! Oh Noes!!! 

Well, personally, I find the inclusion of the turban and bomb to be extremely offensive. I also think it’s exactly the sort of response the bigots at the Daily Mail would want.

I didn’t think that the good folk here would immediately stoop to the type of racial sterotyping and lazy thinking that it represents to me. Two things to remember: not all muslims wear turbans (in fact, a vanishingly small number do) and not all muslims are reactionary fundamentalists (just like all christians do not belong to the Westboro Baptist Church).

As for the quotes about muslims getting angry when there is a cartoon of their prophet, well, that’s their right, just as it is the right of Americans to get completely outraged when someone burns their flag - to the point of passing laws against it. It is their right, even if it seems incredibly pompous and faintly ridiculous to the rest of us.

It is fairly obvious that the story has been inflated by the press in their constant search to raise religious disharmony in the UK.

The whole point of that turban-and-bomb cartoon as I understood it, was not to make fun of muslims, but rather to make fun of people who take these things too seriously. Of course I can’t speak for DOF, so take what I said as simply my opinon.

Also I think that America has laws that protect flag-burning as freedom of expression.

I find the inclusion of the turban and bomb to be extremely offensive.

And your point is?

Rather than answering in detail, on this topic Pat Condell speaks for me. And as I’ve said elsewhere, if you call me an Islamophobe with regards to my take on Muslims in Europe, I’ll consider it a badge of honor.

The whole point of that turban-and-bomb cartoon as I understood it, was not to make fun of muslims, but rather to make fun of people who take these things too seriously.

Exactly!  Like when my son and I exchange the Fox News “Hezbollah fist-jab”.  We’re not making fun of Palestinians - far from it - we’re making fun of Fox News.

I think Last_Hussar is right, it’s probably a small issue blown out of proportion by a bigoted right-wing newspaper. But the fact is that the police make use of dogs (e.g. sniffer dogs) and so displaying of a dog on a police advert shouldn’t be an issue.

I don’t know. I don’t see how taking an image that is offensive to a tiny minority of idiotic fundamentalists and turning it into an image which would be offensive to a whole lot of moderate muslims is making fun of either the aforementioned fundies or the reactionary press who tried to brew up a storm in a teacup.

I also don’t see any way in which it helps the integration of moderate muslims into our society - and for all the press’ claims, the truth is that a large number of second-generation muslims in this country tend to embrace the apathetic attitude towards religion that this nation is quite rightly famous for. I’m all for ridiculing the fundamentalists in any religion - I just don’t believe we do ourselves any good by simultaneously alienating the others, regardless of their misguided acceptance of their particular brand of superstition.

Well you’re on a central problem of living in pluralistic society; the distinction between intention and expression.  Unless we want to wear a straightjacket and always speak in the most carefully literal terms we have to accept the risk that any expression which connects more than two conceptual dots might offend someone.  Also it gets tiresome to attach the disclaimer to everything; “this satire is aimed at group X” or “this satire applies only to extremists”.

Will Rogers used to say; “The world is divided into two groups - the ones who divide the world into two groups and the ones who don’t.” The operative division here is between literalists and satarists.

Being that the reference is to cartoons depicting Mohamed with a bomb turban that a lot of Muslims freaked out over it wouldn’t make any sense as satire if it didn’t feature a bomb turban.

And, for the record, I’m just as vocal about people who freak out about flag burning.

Give me a fucking break. Just more proof that many Muslims are just as irrational and delusional, if not more so, as many Christians.

So a story printed depicting a members of a different cultural group reacting with disgust — a highly negative visceral repulsion to the unclean, unwholesome and unhealthy — to something which our own culture deeply values. You take it as proof that muslims are irrational and delusional.
Even if the story was overblown or even false, I think it’s a safe bet to say that (considering the source) it was intended to provoke exactly that reaction.

Now, consider for a moment that you’re fortunate enough to find yourself living in a prosperous community of liberal non-religious western intellectuals. What if a Korean family opened up a restaurant in your neighborhood and had dog on the menu? What if dog was their specialty?
Furthermore, what if they held a huge grand opening and sent out flyers sporting high-quality four color photos of their signature dish? What if they set up a grill on the street corner and gave out free samples?

What would the reaction be among that community of enlightened western non-religious intellectuals?
My feeling is that it would be the same sort of culturally engendered visceral disgust that led you to dismiss the muslim community as irrational and delusional.

I’m gonna go hug my doggy now.

RiB, you seem to be missing something.

The real story is not that a subset of Muslims takes their religious delusions to new heights or that there’s concern that these overly pious fundies exist. It’s not a biased publication was aiming to a provoke a certain response, either.

The real story is how the British (and Europeans in general) are taking it up the ass in order to avoid “giving offense”.

I’ve never eaten dog. I might just pay your hypothetical Korean restaurant a visit.

Dog is good, much, much better than cat.