Moore is just as much if not more of an attention whore than Hilton. 

Let see, one of them campaigns against what he believes to be injustice, the other receives lots of attention because she is attractive and rich, even though she produces nothing, helps no-one, and is effectively a parasite on the family fortune. Well done Consi- nice to see you maintaining your standards.

You mean like I have to work to put money in my pocket and get health-care?  That undesirable fact of life?

So are you opposed to the minimum wage being raised (or minimum wage in general), or the idea of everyone getting health care?

Consi,

Yes - but government can’t intervene to stop the need for labor. Can’t manage the economy when you aren’t supporting commercial infrastructure.

Say, for instance, Canada (which, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere) is in need of raised reproduction. We need a faster rate of growth on our population. Set up government reimbursement for nurseries, take some of the strain off of parenting for families with several working parents.

My point having been, however incorrectly worded it might have seemed, that there are damn good times and places for government intervention when the free market takes you where it isn’t helpful to go.

So are you opposed to the minimum wage being raised (or minimum wage in general), or the idea of everyone getting health care?

I have no idea where anybody got the idea that they are entitled to anything but the opportunity to make the most of their talent. If you don’t have the talent or the willingness to move to where there is a job that provides health care, well then, that is a bed of one’s own making.

As to this:

Let see, one of them campaigns against what he believes to be injustice, the other receives lots of attention because she is attractive and rich, even though she produces nothing, helps no-one, and is effectively a parasite on the family fortune.

I see no relevance to whether Moore subjectively thinks he is doing good and whether Paris thinks she is subjectively not, as to the issue of the general equality of both as attention whores.  Well done LH-for showing off your ability to miss the point with respect to the issue that I raised.

there are damn good times and places for government intervention when the free market takes you where it isn’t helpful to go.

This I can’t quibble with in the abstract.

You modified your response, but I think I got your drift from the post.

You modified your response, but I think I got your drift from the initial post.

Yes - edited to make sure I addressed you, and edited to expand a little on the aspect that government can’t help when it comes to labor - the need to generate money prevents any nation from being import-only. You must have profitable enterprise.

If you don’t have the talent or the willingness to move to where there is a job that provides health care, well then, that is a bed of one’s own making.

Heaven forfend your path ever crosses misfortunes of employment and health at the same time, Consi. Even harder to bear would be if the employment problem would be yours, and the health problem one of someone for whom you are responsible, like my neighbor whose child recently died in her twenties after a suffering life deriving from birth defects.  In her passing the life seems to have been wrung out of my neighbors as well; perhaps this is a bed of their own making.

I see no relevance to whether Moore subjectively thinks he is doing good and whether Paris thinks she is subjectively not, as to the issue of the general equality of both as attention whores.

Yes, because, you see, the Word Of Consi is always to be interpreted with the most austere literalism.  There is never any subtext.  Consi is pure.

If you’re not up for the anatomical impossibilities I suggest you perform, Consi, try listening to this song a time or two.  As a diagnostic test, to see if any human empathy survived the chemotherapy of whatever it is you did to yourself sometime back.

I’d just like to backtrack and point out that, as Paris’s money comes from the Hilton resort corporation she’s not exactly “not producing anything” in the sense that her money comes from being sat in a bank somewhere and collecting dust. She might not do an awful lot herself, but as an investor in an active enterprise that employs thousands of workers and probably itself makes a fairly stout contribution to global tourism, whatever you might think of her personally, she’s probably doing an awful lot more for the helping out the disadvantaged that you or I are.

As for the rest? Consi, you realize that you take advantage of “entitlements” as investments in the country all the time? It’s your investment in taxes that protects your neighbors who are farmers, which employs your children that are soldiers, that pays for the roads that you drive on, puts the downpayments on the electrical plants that cause the little lightbulbs in your head to glow, that makes sure you have your pay stubs in the mail on time, that made sure that there were phone lines to connect you to the internet that your investment bought the invention of...If anyone needs to get wiser to the sense of entitlement that nationalism is all about, it’s the folks that think we’ve got some straight line no-frills free market that corrects itself. That’s bullshit, a fantasy. We’ve always meddled in the market without remorse when it would provide advantage for our citizens, from paying out of pocket for most of the country from France for people to settle in or to guarantee rail rights to connect the coasts. The only difference in any of those things and nationalizing health care? Health care is an entrenched political lobby with many rich advocates and complacent patsies who’ve got this idiot notion that the libertarian anarchy they envision us being near to in their heads is a reality (or that it would be as pleasant a place to live in as they imagine).

It’s not about “giving people something for nothing.” That never happens. It’s about giving your country every advantage you can manage to ensure that it’s competitive with other countries, and right now the only area we’re a shoo-in for the longer term is still our military. We’re declining in engineering and the sciences, we’re running at magnificent deficits in every quarter, and we’ve squandered decades of political goodwill. But hey, we can still kill everyone alive.

We’ve got to make the US a more competitive workplace with the rest of the world. One of the ways to do that is to decrease the cost of living for our labor force. Another would be to open our borders to accept more labor. Yet another would be to simply cut off huge swaths of the globe from accessing our markets entirely to trash their economies. Nationalized health care? It’s the options where we don’t look like dicks or end up speaking Spanish. If you really want to spend your money getting health care then Consi, you can spend the money to fly out to someplace where they play things fast and thick still. Can’t afford it? What, are you asking for a handout?

We’ve got to make the US a more competitive workplace with the rest of the world. One of the ways to do that is to decrease the cost of living for our labor force.

This is, quite frankly, one of the more illogical arguments I’ve ever read for health care.  Check immigration v. emigration status of the U.S. v. Europe (where they would appear to have a more competitive workplace).  Furthermore, increased GDP is about exports not decreased cost of labor.  Exports depend in large part on the cost of goods, which in turn is dependent on the cost of production, which in turn is dependent on the cost of labor.  Cheaper labor, not more expensive labor would seem to increase that.  How you get from increased labor costs to increased GDP, I’ll never know.

There is never any subtext.  Consi is pure.

I wish.  If LH wants to come after what I write than do so on point is all I’m saying.

Consi: I have no idea where anybody got the idea that they are entitled to anything but the opportunity to make the most of their talent. If you don’t have the talent or the willingness to move to where there is a job that provides health care, well then, that is a bed of one’s own making

Generally speaking there are times when being tough with people helps get them to see reality but there’s also a point where people won’t take it in (and may antagonise) because they start to hate what/who is creating that situation, and percieve differences in the deserve:get ratio. In economics that point comes when you threaten people’s ability to keep in food and shelter. Hungry people don’t reason well.

The cost of living is based on the cost of products which is in turn based on cost of production and transport. Production costs are then based on total overhead versus profit. Part of the overhead is energy cost, labor, and cost of supplies. The cost of supplies is a dependant circle with production costs of others. Energy costs as they are now are semi-dependant, since we are unwilling to build more nuclear plants, make the switch to ethanol, and explore other options. I propose that we instead of raising the minimum wage we give everyone making under $10 an hour get $1 per hour put into an education fund that can be used for college or trade school, as well as transferred to children or grand children. It’s one time increase that would pay off big time in the end. Build 300 nuke plants across the US to supply all the energy needs for the next 190 years, more would be needed after that (I used an average of estimates). We should require that all new cars sold run on ethanol. Let more workers in to the country. The future of the US is in being the white colors of the world, not in production. Although some production is important. Like an independant food source and energy.

The EU has a shity unemployment rate. The only way they are more competitive is to say that more qualified people are out of work and trying to get the same job.

Timmeh: I propose that we instead of raising the minimum wage we give everyone making under $10 an hour get $1 per hour put into an education fund that can be used for college or trade school, as well as transferred to children or grand children

Might help but there’s more to it than qualifications - you have to be a certain type of person for some jobs and have the courage and self-esteem to look for them or push for advancement. Low-paid workers sometimes think they don’t stand as much of a chance as they really do, and you also get people who earn good degrees but burn-out, who’ve spent their energy so can’t reap the rewards of what they’ve already done. If people genuinely accept their percieved ‘fate’ of crappy job they lose the need to advance because they become OK with crappiness or distort their perspective, because they need to in order to stay sane, and without drive it doesn’t seem worth what you’d put yourself through to get a higher-pressured job. Remember also, there aren’t enough good jobs for everyone.

You gotta love the conservative view.  Here is a party that is all about fat rich white guys with nothing more to do then keep themselves rich and everyone else poor.  Than they scare the poorer folk into buying into their bullshit theories by saying “The socialists bogeymen are coming” or “The marketplace needs to be free!!!!” All the while forgetting (as MisterMook pointed out) we don’t have a free fucking marketplace.

So what the fuck would make you think not spending money on a socialist idea like free health care would fail?  Because saying it isn’t part of a free marketplace is a load of bullshit.  And someone as smart as you knows it Consi.  That shit makes no sense to me and has no economic basis what-so-ever.

What I can’t figure out is that America’s Christians have bought into it.  Pity poor Jesus of Nazareth; he lived before Adam Smith and never got to read Wealth Of Nations.  He didn’t know the truth. 

Smith elucidated a stunning, world-transforming truth, but it is not the only truth in play.  That earlier fellow had a thing or two to say about the relationship between rich and poor.

Sigh… Consigliere, you *did* pick up enough Latin in law school to know what “ad hominem” arguments are, and what they are (not) worth--RIIIIGHT???

I personally think that the kindest thing you can say for Moore’s “research” is that it’s cavalier with data.  But I also tend to judge people by the enemies they make.  And in this case, that’s even more telling than usual.  That includes your response, by the bye.

I’m also *quite* leery of giving the govt. even more of my data via a national insurance/health-care system.  Yet in a nation that’s very quickly sliding( back) into Plutocracy (witness the widening gap between the rich and poor, an obviously two-tier justice system, etc.), it’s starting to seem like the lesser of the evils.  Same goes for pesky government intervention like OSHA, public education, food and drug safety, etc.  I have this little fetish about living in a literate democracy rather than as the serf of a mega-corporation manor lord.

If there’s a third way, I’m all ears--or eyes, given that this is a text forum.

But until then, Moore is free to make his case.  Ad hominem pot-shots don’t change the fact that an awful lot of people are tired of being trampled on by the fat b@$+@rd$ in the insurance industry.

cubiclegrrl:

I know not of what you speak.  I have never taken any Latin class, let alone one in law school.  I’m but a simple farm boy who pops in here from time to time, life permitting.

until then, Moore is free to make his case.

I couldn’t agree with you more.

Webs:

So what the fuck would make you think not spending money on a socialist idea like free health care would fail?

If I’m reading you right, you’ve read me wrong.  Care to rephrase?

Consi. I am typing this slowly, so you can keep up. The thing campaigners do is try to seek attention.  You have to bring attention to the thing that you are campaigning against, or it is pointless.

Ok people may not like him or his methods (I’ve speeded the typing up now, ‘coz this is for general consumption) but he at least is saying “This is Wrong”. Please let’s not start a big “MM, right or wrong” arguement.

PH on the other hand, managed to make a mug shot into a photo oppotunity. As for her money being invested. Thats nothing to do with her. If I broke my promise to the Dr and went back to remove her from history, that money would still be there, just in some-one elses hands.

Perhaps I’m wrong- next time there is a charity appeal on telly maybe I should just think Red Cross/NSPCC/OXFAM- ha! media whores, pushing the holy Paris off the screen”

Consi:

If you don’t have the talent or the willingness to move to where there is a job that provides health care, well then, that is a bed of one’s own making.

That statement essentially says that if you cannot get a job that affords you healthcare you are fucked.

Meaning that you essentailly don’t care that over 45 million Americans have no health care.  And that for those that do have it and get fucked by the insurance company, that you don’t care.

So in as plain Barney type as I can make it here is the question, “Doesn’t it concern you that we have a failing health care system in America (The richest industrialized country in the World).  If no, then why?  Do you just not care that much about your fellow man.  I understand nowhere in the Constitution is it written that “All shall have free available health care”, but how is it not the job of our government to help it’s citizens and afford them the ability to pursue happiness.

Meaning that you essentailly don’t care that over 45 million Americans have no health care.  And that for those that do have it and get fucked by the insurance company, that you don’t care.

Webs sometimes you are just a twit.  Twits have a tendency to set up an either or situation.  Twits then designate that if you don’t agree with A, then you most obviously must believe B is the only other alternative.  Twits fail to realize that there are more options than A or B.  Stop being a twit.

Thats nothing to do with her. If I broke my promise to the Dr and went back to remove her from history, that money would still be there, just in some-one else’s hands.

Perhaps, but you could say that about anyone so it’s not a particularly compelling argument against her. The fact is, it IS in her hands and SHE is the person employing thousands of people. You can critique her stewardship, but that’s something else too.

What *I* don’t get is the implication by Consi, since it’s all about people being lazy and not working hard enough to keep from having shitty health care, that Paris is somehow more deserving on good health care than most of the human population. I mean, apparently it’s all about the money, so if Paris used her considerable financial pull to single out Consi and ruin him for some reason that would equitably and fairly translate into a reasonable way to kill him (or at least make sure he has bad teeth, never got a flu shot, learned how to set his own broken legs, etc) because it’s not by any moral obligation by which we support our fellow human beings at all - it’s all about money.

Or is it that amorphous concept of “working hard,” “earning an honest dollar” or some other bullshit sidestep? Maybe it all boils down to what you’re doing for your fellows in mankind? Like employing several thousand people in your resorts vs. being an internet bad-ass and calling people twits on the web?

Everyone is free to complain about Hilton, but at least out friend Consi has the respect for her to lay out the groundwork to say she’s several times more deserving of life and death than he. I applaud you Consi, for your selflessness. Or maybe you’re wealthy enough that you’re just preparing to throw the rest of us under the bus?

Consi, why do you hate your fellow human beings so much that you’d promote policies that would condemn them to suffer when there are several examples of functional alternatives that would lessen that burden? If a child’s parents can’t afford her leukemia treatment, is it a reasonable expectation that “those are the breaks?” Paris Hilton could have thousands of life-changing and prolonging therapies if she chose to, based solely on her association with wealth. Why does she deserve it more than poorer people without her resources? Why does it make more sense to invest in an insurance corporation which is beholden to shareholders more than it is to invest in a government that is beholden to its constituents?

Consi, but sometimes it is an A or B choice.  You either are accepted for health care or you are not. Millions of American do not have health cover for no other reason than they are considered too big a risk due to circumstances outside their control- family history, previous illness etc.

Or perhaps like Les they choose to have a low paid job. That’s right isn’t it Les- the reason you are not a CEO is because you’re a lazy bugger.

Twits fail to realize that there are more options than A or B.

Is this where we come in where you say

You mean like I have to work to put money in my pocket and get health-care?  That undesirable fact of life?

After all - one could have conceived of any number of alternative responses, many of which fit the bill - expressing the statement relative to the goals of the people (vis a vis their representatives in government), for instance. You were kind (cautious?) enough to grace your statement with a question mark.

Twit-dom deserves to be condemned, at least via correction, Consi, and I commend that it was done. What I dislike is how it’s descended to name-calling: both because you’re usually more collected than this, and because you drive false dichotomies too.

Get off your chair.

edit: Btw:

Meaning that you essentailly don’t care that over 45 million Americans have no health care.  And that for those that do have it and get fucked by the insurance company, that you don’t care.

… twit remarks here ...

Can’t blame someone for drawing this conclusion from time to time - you always argue points but rarely - if ever - make your position clear. I can hardly blame Webs for likening your statements to your position. It is, after all, a bed of your own making.

Consi’s comment about not being talented enough to get a job with health care has pissed me off a bit. The comment got long enough that I figured I should just make it its own entry. So that’s what I’ve done.