nowiser, while I agree with the gist of what you said, I don’t want to be in the business of defining a True Christian™. Suffice it to say that neither side has cornered the market on zealotry.

There were, and are, plenty of Christian ‘thinkers.’ But we’re not talking about Christians here, we’re talking about zealots.  There are plenty of Christians who refer, for guidance, to portions of the Bible that you and I might actually find reasonable or appealing.  There are plenty of Christians who ignore some of the more unpalatable or outright dangerous portions of the text.  In other words, like every other human on the planet, there are plenty of Christians who adopt (and realize that this is what they’re doing) a relatively arbitrary mythology on which to ‘hang’ certain moral and ethical beliefs that are cross-cultural and, most likely, evolved.

That these mythologies are not -objectively- true does not render them valueless.

It’s when the wackjobs start insisting that these mythologies are -in themselves- universal truths, rather than analogic ‘containers’ for universal truths, that they start creeping me out.  And making me grouchy too.  Don’t forget grouchy.

Hell, I got no problem with blind faith, and I really have no problem with Creationists saying “I’m right and you all will figure it out when you’re standing before God..” yadayadayada.

Believe what you want to believe, what you feel you have to believe, or what other people tell you to believe, but recognize it for what it is.  don’t come to me with scientific evidence for Creationism, unless you play by the rules of science.  Don’t try to tell me something that conflicts with the observable facts and then tell ME I’m not paying attention.  I can’t debate a creationist using biblical arguments.  For whatever reasons, God could have created the universe just like it is yesterday, given us all these fake memories and put the fossils in the earth to taunt us and scatter all this observable evidence around misleading us as to the true nature of the universe, and I would be none the wiser.  If a man of faith told me that was what happened, then I may not believe him, but I would have no counter argument, nor would I seek one.

But that’s not what they do.  They try to tell us that God doesn’t run counter to the observable evidence, and in fact, the observable evidence supports God, and that’s just not true.  It’s got nothing to do with faith or fairness of competing theories.  Reality is not fair, and we should not treat with (or teach) a scientific theory unless it has scientific support.  Two theories competing for answers to the same questions will almost always have unequal evidence.  Evolution fits all the facts we know, and as the theory with the most evidence, it is given the most weight.  It is as simple as that, and I’m being generous implying that there is any sort of evidence at all for ID.  There isn’t.

I can handle blind zealotry.  Ironically, I would have much more respect for them if they were still calling it Creationism and were saying we must teach it because it’s what God wants, instead of trying to sneak it into schools under the guise of science.  It’s desperate cowardess at best.

I can handle blind zealotry.  Ironically, I would have much more respect for them if they were still calling it Creationism and were saying we must teach it because it’s what God wants, instead of trying to sneak it into schools under the guise of science.  It’s desperate cowardess at best.

Having grown up with a mother on the side of zealotry, I quite agree. I suppose I have her to thank for my appreciation of balls; just plain calling it how you think it is and calling your beliefs to speak for you. It’s a dispute without a fight, and I respect it. By comparison, however, the people working to claim evolution is scientifically false have only succeeded in pissing me off.

I would have thought that our most recent creationist would be back by now, but perhaps he’s busy crapping over another board. Not that I’m complaining, mind you…

No, once he was revealed as a cut and paster, I didn’t expect him to resurface. He’s probably off trying his routine on someone else and getting his ass handed to him again.

As a side note I was listening to

Coral - a Pessimist in Paradise

Written and read by Steve Jones

Coral islands have inspired the creative imagination since writing began. In modern times literary works, fine art and popular culture have all drawn from the fantasy of these remote ideals.

But the truth is far from idyllic. Corals are in constant battle with their physical environment, as are the animals who live within the reefs, and those environments are themselves in crisis from global warming.

this weeks Radio 4 Book of the Week. The Beeb does ‘Listen again’ on many of their programmes for 7 days after broadcast via their site. (Health warning- may not be available outside UK for legal reasons).

Today’s episode was how coral in the Andes led Captain Cook to query ‘the fixed immutable Earth’, and put Darwin on the road to Evolution (and you thought it was turtles and finches).

SJ explains how 19th cent scientists didn’t go looking for problems with the biblical version- they just kept coming across stuff that didn’t make sense according to what they had been taught.