Sadly, the link is dead. I’d like to read the full article prior to responding. Off to search for it…

I’ve updated the link as it appears it was moved to an area containing a bunch of related news items. Note that the site requires a minor amount of registration to access the news item.

We Americans are happy to look the other way as Mexicans and other immigrants sneak across our borders to perform our menial work for low wages.  Prop 200 requires, among other things, that state and local health care agencies see proof of citizenship before providing services, and that’s going to discourage many hispanics, “legal” or not, from seeking things like immunizations, std testing, etc.  It’s frightening to think about the impact this might have on public health in Arizona. 

I feel that anyone who works in our country and contributes to our economy should be offered the same basic services and protections afforded our own citizens.  I applaude the government of Mexico for criticizing this policy, and I fear that the passage of Prop 200 is just part of the larger tide of racism and xenophobia that’s washing over our nation.

A classic problem of wanting to have your cake and eat it, too.

The only part I have an issue with is the:

State employees who fail to report undocumented immigrants face a possible $750 fine and four months in jail.

This will cause issues… I think illegals should be shipped off, and allowed to attempt to come in the front door… that said…

I think that state healthcare officials (read: state run hospitals, clinics, etc) should be excempt from this provision… we dont want people… illegal, legal, or inbetween, dying in the streets of ailments that could be treated… by making healthcare workers into defacto law enforcement agents we could have a large problem…

Other than that, why is it such a problem that we ensure only legal residents (ie: citizens are permitted to vote and feed from the public trough?

So does this make me “racist” or xenophobic as babypohemus seems to think? Nope… not at all. That is a false argument, having nothing to do with the reality of my position. I am for increasing legal immigration, while at the same time cracking down hard on illegal immigration of all kinds… Open the front door wider and cement closed the backdoor

What John Hoke said.  I work with quite a few (legal) immigrants and they got here the right way.  They’re an asset to this country and I hope they’ll decide to stay and that the US will let them.

It is dangerous and unfair to let people sneak in.

So does this make me “racist� or xenophobic as babypohemus seems to think? Nope… not at all. That is a false argument, having nothing to do with the reality of my position. I am for increasing legal immigration, while at the same time cracking down hard on illegal immigration of all kinds… Open the front door wider and cement closed the backdoor

Perhaps I’ve made myself unclear.  I don’t know you or anyone here well enough to call you a “racistâ€? person.  I do believe that Prop 200, along with similar proposals such as the infamous (and unconstitutional) Prop 187 in California, resulted from the rise in nativism in our country.  Nativism, the idea that only “nativesâ€? belong here is just a thinly-veiled form of racism.  Proponents of such proposals routinely portray undocumented immigrants as criminals, and stigmatize them either as an economic drain or, especially since 9/11, as terrorists.  The notion that immigrants, undocumented or otherwise, come to this country intent on living on the dole is simply false.  Most are hard workers with a strong desire to achieve what they perceive to be the American dream, and they come here for low-wage, low-skill jobs, without benefits.  And in Arizona, at least, it can be argued that Mexican immigrants pay more in federal, state and local taxes than they take in government services (see pages 8-9 here ). 

I’m with you all the way about opening the front door wider.  Maybe doing so would make it more difficult to demonize the poor people who come to this country to work for low wages under adverse conditions.  Maybe doing so would make it more difficult for employers like Walmart to hire – and tax - undocumented immigrants while threatening these immigrants with deportation should they complain about poor wages and deplorable working conditions.  If you’d like to cement closed the back door, you might want to start by doing away with NAFTA, which has driven immigration from Mexico to the US and created a huge cross-border labor market.  But I guess at this point that’d a lot tougher than supporting a divisive and ineffectual initiative like Proposition 200.

John,

You racist bastard!!! 

Proponents of such proposals routinely portray undocumented immigrants as criminals

They are criminals, babypohemus.  They’re here illegally. And it is not a trivial crime, either.  Countries need to know who comes in and out, and why.

Also, do you maintain that Mexican criminals do not find the US an attractive place to be?  Ask cops in the affected areas.

I think there’s hardly any limit to how many hard-working people our country can absorb. To paraphrase our president, “bring ‘em on!” But through the front door, please.

They are criminals, babypohemus.  They’re here illegally. And it is not a trivial crime, either.  Countries need to know who comes in and out, and why.

Ditto.

Most are hard workers with a strong desire to achieve what they perceive to be the American dream…

Yeah, and because they come here illegally, when immigration comes through, those low-wage employers--places like Wendy’s, Meijer’s, etc. are left without half their workforce.  How is that fair?

My friend Mark was a manager at Wendy’s in high school and every time immigration came through, all the illegal immigrants left and he got called in or ended up working extra shifts with only a couple other people.  That’s great for business, isn’t it?

Ditto, John.

Yeah, and because they come here illegally, when immigration comes through, those low-wage employers--places like Wendy’s, Meijer’s, etc. are left without half their workforce.

I fail to understand why American citizens would not work such jobs.

This issue is at the same point that social security is at...we’ve ignored it for so long for fear of hurting a certain group’s feelings we’re all going to suffer for quite some time while we struggle through to an answer.

MOST of the children I work with everyday are here illegally (or their parents are); where does my paycheck come from?  Anytime you discuss it with them or their parents, they hate the Mexican government with the fire of a thousand suns more than anything about US government here.  They will give you a laundry list of corruption, not to mention the hypocracy of Mexican policies toward Guatemala.

So most of those who come here, (semi-legally or not,) usually want something better & are willing to work for it. & to a large degree they are contributing members to the best of their ability without risking deportation.  The US’ ridiculous iron-fisted grip allowing only a trickle through legally is absurd, & discourages the many productive contributing immigrants from reporting on the destructive & dangerous immigrants they know more about & could (& would willingly) help law enforcement a great deal.  Terrorism has only thrown yet more frustration into the mix.

I think there’s hardly any limit to how many hard-working people our country can absorb. To paraphrase our president, “bring ‘em on!� But through the front door, please.

I agree with you here, and I would ask why the front door remains so narrowly open and so tightly controlled?  Our economic system is served by an influx of migrant labor, and it’s even better served if that labor is unregulated.  Undocumented laborers have no minimum wage, no restrictions on working time, no health and safety protection and no union representation.  I live in Michigan (just down the road from you, Les ) , which is pretty far from the Mexican border, but almost every roofing crew I see is comprised of Mexican and Guatemalan laborers.  Coincidence?  Could it be that roofing companies just can’t find any Americans willing to do this dangerous work?  I don’t think so.  And it’s ditto for the kitchen staff of many of the restaurants in my town.  Workers who live under constant fear of deportation make the ideal labor force, particularly in low-skill, low-pay sectors. 

Also, do you maintain that Mexican criminals do not find the US an attractive place to be?  Ask cops in the affected areas.

I’m sure you’re not suggesting that most undocumented immigrants are criminals.  If we’re going to criminalize anyone in this debate, let’s look at the employers who make use of undocumented laborers and then pay sub-standard wages and provided sub-standard working conditions.

I’m sure you’re not suggesting that most undocumented immigrants are criminals.

Nope… what I am saying and that others have said is that ALL undocumented (euphemism for illegal) immigrants are criminals.

Need we lookup the word illegal?

il·le·gal adj.
1. Prohibited by law.
2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.
[source: Dictionary.Com - emphasis mine]

Using euphemisms to call them “undocumented” does not change their legal status, only tries to play semantics with their situation. One who breaks the law is a criminal last I checked. One who comes into this country illegally, even with the best intentions, is still a criminal.

If we’re going to criminalize anyone in this debate, let’s look at the employers who make use of undocumented laborers and then pay sub-standard wages and provided sub-standard working conditions.

The law is not a zero sum game, each should be arrested, and the illegal immigrant deported and the one hiring them fined, jailed and held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

See, then both criminals are treated as they should be under the law.

I fail to understand why American citizens would not work such jobs.

Many do.  But when the work force is flooded with immigrants who will work for lower wages and without benefits, why would anyone hire an American citizen to do the job?

As has been stated previously, let’s open the door wider.  We’re going in circles, here.

Let’s revisit the question of the Mexican government’s threat to file a complaint with an international human rights tribunal if the proposition isn’t overturned. I had to read that a couple of times to be sure I got it right.

Regardless of whether or not proposition 200 will do more harm than good, wouldn’t Mexico be better served if the government spent that energy on efforts to care-for and protect its citizenry while they actually live within their own borders? Isn’t the message they’re sending along the lines of “flee to the US and we’ll protect your right to stay there illegally”?

Yeah, yeah, I know that’s naive, idealistic, doesn’t take into account sweeping corruption, living conditions, blah blah blah - That’s all true. But you cannot deny me (that’s a figurative me) the right to be angry when a person living in the US illegally gets better treatment and services than I do because I’m living in that grey space just above the poverty line.

hruumph.

Okay, I admit it, that’s a literal “me”. Thinking of Illegal Aliens living in the US “without benefits” is a funny, funny statement to me. When my husband and I were going to school in San Diego, he was working part time delivering pizzas, I was working “casual relief” in the mother of all local hospital systems as a CSR for their medical equipment service. I was very popular with Nurses, Doctors and Physical Therapists because I was very quick with donations to illegals injured while crossing the border or running from the pea-green jeeps.

Here’s a predictable twist to the story: Here we are, working our patooties off and playing by the rules to carve out our own little piece of the American Dream. We made too much money to qualify for MediCal, but not nearly enough to pay for insurance and pay rent. When my husband broke his wrist playing softball, the hospital I worked 30 hours/week for refused to treat him without payment up front. They wouldn’t even offer us a discount because I was classified as “casual relief” (which is also why I didn’t have insurance through my loving employer). So the same hospital that cared for a family who got creamed while dodging through traffic on the I-5 to enter the US illegally turned us away at the door. Who knows, maybe it’s because I green-lighted donation of wheelchairs, crutches and canes to that family.

Now, define “without benefits” again.

No, no, no. There’s no racism here. If anything, it’s my own swirling victimization. It’s pure anger at being screwed by the very system we both spent time defending in the Air Force. (yeah, we ended up at the VA Hospital. Another rant for another day.)

I’m not a big fan of illegals putting their hand in the public’s money jar.  Here in Minnesota, we have one of the best state welfare systems in the country.  As a result we get illegals from all over the world leaching off our system.  Sure, some may work in the beat fields of North Dakota during picking season, but they come to Minnesota in the off season to leach off hard-working Minnesotans like a ticks on a deer.  Wow, that sounded hickish.

Those double e words seem to be a problem for both you and ellie, grey. Leech!

Then there’s the way some go about immigrating that makes it so wrong. Watch Victoria Para Chino in Sundance Shorts Films section.

Sundance registration required.

drrrp!

Originally posted by Iolite:
I fail to understand why American citizens would not work such jobs.

Because the majority of us are too spoiled and stuck up to stoop to such a menial task.  The American Dream sucks.  It only encourages greed and selfishness.

Theocrat spewed forth:

Because the majority of us are too spoiled and stuck up to stoop to such a menial task.  The American Dream sucks.  It only encourages greed and selfishness.

Uhm… it is not the dream that sucks, but sometimes it is the reality that sucks. It does not necessarily encourage greed and/or selfishness, but it does not discourage it either…

The American Dream, like all dreams, all depend on how you interpret them ... and you get out what you put in (usually).

The issue that exists is that the Dream has been [mis]interpreted by people for so long that the Nightmare has replaced the Founding Father’s Dreams

I don’t give a flying fuck what country you’re from, if you’re here illegally-- get the hell out of my country and go find another host, loser.
It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with parasites who break the law and steal billions in tax dollars from actual citizens and taxpayers. I’m sick and tired of the race card being played on this one. There are probably not 13 million Belgians here illegally, so it has occured to me that the proportion of Mexican illegals is disproportionate, but still. To me, it’s all about lack of secure borders, criminals being allowed to break the law and people being lowlife parasites. Not to mention that allowing people to work illegally opens them up to being victimized in numerous ways. It isn’t fair to anyone and people need to follow the rules and stop breaking the law. PERIOD.