More then once and more than I ever wanted to, I’ve seen a snuff short film, even though I didn’t know what I was watching until it was too late. I’ve seen the steakandcheese.com site and I know that some of the MPEG’s are of real murders. I even tried to watch a “Faces of Death” video one time (it was the guy thing to do) but I didn’t finish it and I felt weird for weeks after, for what I had seen.

I know that violent acts are depicted in movies and television almost as often as non-violent ones but the difference is that these are not real scenes of harm or death. I can’t say I feel the need for mock violence in my visual entertainment, though I realize it can be useful in moderation to demonstrate the depths to which humans will descend.

But I don’t have to enjoy it, and I wouldn’t build a religion around the death of a main character and call it life affirming. I wouldn’t revel in the belief that people who disagree with me will suffer being struck by lightning or a violent and everlasting demise; that’s just gratuitous and twisted. But hey, get your freak on, those of you would.

Sherra - I can’t figure out which of your statements is placing me in hell. Is it..

”one day you will be forced to your knees and made to call Him “King of kings” and “Lord of lords!”

or..

”it will be too late then”

If it isn’t the first, really, what kind of god are you worshipping?

If there isn’t a God then how does ANYTHING exist?  There is no existance without a divine force. 

Imagine the universe before there were planets.  Imagine the universe before sub-atomic particles organized into matter and gas.  The universe in this state is just a bunch of particles (electrons etc...) floating around in infinite space. 

Now I ask you, what was before this stage?  Where did sub-atomic particles come from and how did they manage to avoid anti-particles over the course of several eons and not annhilate themselves?  Did they just poof into existance?  Or have they always existed?  Neither answer is a very good one. 

To say that God and creation are impractical is to say that an electron will exist forever and ever after us and that it has existed forever and ever before us.  To say that a particle has existed forever is just as ridiculous as saying that the earth has existed forever.  To me, non-believers are believing in a pretty big miracle. 

There is plenty of evidence that God exists.  I’ll admit that this evidence is circumstantial, but the quantity amounts to credibility in my mind.  I’ve yet to see a shred of circumstantial evidence or even hear a hypothesis about how a single sub-atomic particle has the ability to poof itself into existance.  Let alone poof into hundreds of types of particles.  Oh and avoid it’s corresponding anti-matter over the course of infinity.  And then correspond with all of the following miracles necessary to discredit God.

If there isn’t a God then how does ANYTHING exist? There is no existance without a divine force.

Prove it. Look, just cause you can’t imagine how it’s possible doesn’t mean it’s not possible. Go take some night courses in science. Study up. Expand your understanding and maybe it won’t be so hard for you to imagine.

Imagine the universe before there were planets. Imagine the universe before sub-atomic particles organized into matter and gas. The universe in this state is just a bunch of particles (electrons etc… floating around in infinite space.

Now I ask you, what was before this stage? Where did sub-atomic particles come from and how did they manage to avoid anti-particles over the course of several eons and not annhilate themselves? Did they just poof into existance? Or have they always existed? Neither answer is a very good one.

Explain what’s wrong with the answer: they have always existed? Isn’t that your excuse for where God came from?

And please explain why if we don’t know the answer to your question this somehow proves God must exist? Is that your explanation for everything you don’t know the answer to? Daddy, how to they get the ships inside those bottles? Well, sweetheart it’s all God’s doing.

To say that God and creation are impractical is to say that an electron will exist forever and ever after us and that it has existed forever and ever before us. To say that a particle has existed forever is just as ridiculous as saying that the earth has existed forever. To me, non-believers are believing in a pretty big miracle.

Who ever said God and creation are impractical? We just said we don’t believe God exists. And I don’t recall anyone saying that electrons will exist forever, though I must admit that I don’t know if that’s possible or not. I’ve never heard of one “going away” or “ceasing to exist” for some reason.

As for your miracle comment, it’s not any bigger than believing any of the other so-called miracles attributed to God like the amazing fence-post-that-looks-like-the-Virgin-Mary or Jesus’ face in a tortilla.

There is plenty of evidence that God exists. I’ll admit that this evidence is circumstantial, but the quantity amounts to credibility in my mind.

OK, cough it up. I’m anticipating that you’ll be able to do better than Randall’s “your existence is proof of God” crap.

I’ve yet to see a shred of circumstantial evidence or even hear a hypothesis about how a single sub-atomic particle has the ability to poof itself into existance. Let alone poof into hundreds of types of particles. Oh and avoid it’s corresponding anti-matter over the course of infinity. And then correspond with all of the following miracles necessary to discredit God.

I suggest you grab a few books by Stephen Hawkings then starting with A Brief History of Time and working your way up. He explains a theory in there related to black holes that appears to have particles just “poofing” into existence and managing to avoid their anti-matter counterparts due to being on the opposite side of the event horizon. Go on and read up. We’ll wait.

And please explain why if we don’t know the answer to your question this somehow proves God must exist?

It doesn’t prove that God exists.  Now will you admit to bowdwn5’s point?  It seems to me Les, that whenever you know that someone may be trying to prove a point (that isn’t even close to trying to prove the God of Christianity), that you immediately begin your little attacks on ideas and points that were not even intended to be made.  Stop going out of your way to pick apart things that are not worth picking apart purely becuase you may be scared to admit to something.  Because after all, we are trying to find out the truth to our existence.

I love the old we don’t know so therefore we do know position.

God is a justifier for those who cannot believe they deserve to be alive, and a balm for anxieties that consume them. 

It doesn’t prove that God exists. Now will you admit to bowdwn5’s point?

Which point would that be? He made several. Those I had problems with I’ve already addressed in my reply to him.

It seems to me Les, that whenever you know that someone may be trying to prove a point (that isn’t even close to trying to prove the God of Christianity), that you immediately begin your little attacks on ideas and points that were not even intended to be made. Stop going out of your way to pick apart things that are not worth picking apart purely becuase you may be scared to admit to something. Because after all, we are trying to find out the truth to our existence.

I’m not afraid to admit anything if there’s something to be admitted. I’ve clearly demonstrated on more than one occasion, including in my reply to Bowdwn5, that I’m quite capable of admitting when I don’t know something. And are you going to bother to address any of the points and questions I raised with you earlier? Or are you too scared to bother to address the questions asked of you?

I have no aspirations of proving anything to anyone because I’m aware that I don’t know everything.  I think it’s unfair to label all Christians with the “holier than thou” attitude.  I’m well aware of the hypocrisy and “pig headed” nature of Christianity.  I’ve even been a victim as well as contributor to it.  That doesn’t mean that I actively condone it.

I will read Stephen Hawking, but not as a means to prove anything.  I’ll read it because I’m not a closed-minded person.  I admit that I have never heard that theory, it sounds interesting. 

My point in this isn’t that I have empirical proof.  I admitted that earlier when I used the word circumstantial.  My bend is to offer something besides the conflict of Bible thumping and close mindedness. 

Never heard of the disappearance of an electron?  Well I haven’t either, you’ve got me stumped on that one.  Although it might disappear when it meets it’s anti-matter…

So the black hole seperates anti-matter and matter and even poofs electrons out of thin air eh...Where’d the black hole come from?  Doesn’t sound like much of a poof to me if the black hole is doing the poofing. 

If one doesn’t believe in God then it pretty much follows that one doesn’t believe in creation.  Forgive me if I jump to conclusions. 

I believe in God because of the big picture...I believe because of everything that I’ve experienced in conjunction with my knowledge that a sub-atomic particle can’t just appear by itself. 

I believe that there was a begining to matter.  Sure, my imaginitive inabilities don’t provide any absolute proof.  I never said that it did. 

My belief in miracles is supported by my belief in God wich is supported by my preceeding comments.  Your belief in miracles is supported by your imaginations. 

To believe that there isn’t a God is equivalent to believing that matter can create itself based on the assumption that there was a begining.  If you don’t believe that there was a beginging and that it always existed then yes you do believe in miracles.  Although, I would insist that someone who believes this might not fully grasp the concept of infinity.  Kudos on the vivid imaginations.

I have no aspirations of proving anything to anyone because I’m aware that I don’t know everything. I think it’s unfair to label all Christians with the “holier than thou” attitude. I’m well aware of the hypocrisy and “pig headed” nature of Christianity. I’ve even been a victim as well as contributor to it. That doesn’t mean that I actively condone it.

I don’t label all Christians as holding a holier-than-thou attitude, just ones that demonstrate such an attitude. Ones such as Sherra. You claim there is plenty of circumstantial evidence so list it then.

I will read Stephen Hawking, but not as a means to prove anything. I’ll read it because I’m not a closed-minded person. I admit that I have never heard that theory, it sounds interesting.

I didn’t suggest you read it to prove anything, I suggested you read it to expand your knowledge. Because as your knowledge expands so will your understanding. Whether this greater understanding convinces you one way or the other about issues such as God is secondary to the point. Keep in mind, I don’t really care if you believe in God or not, but when folks come to my website and try to tell me I’m wrong in the opinions I hold then you’re going to have to back that shit up with something substantial.

My point in this isn’t that I have empirical proof. I admitted that earlier when I used the word circumstantial. My bend is to offer something besides the conflict of Bible thumping and close mindedness.

And what would that alternative be?

Never heard of the disappearance of an electron? Well I haven’t either, you’ve got me stumped on that one. Although it might disappear when it meets it’s anti-matter…

It wouldn’t disappear, it would be destroyed by being converted to an impressive amount of energy in the form of photons. As an electron is would cease to exist, but there’d be a shitload of energy left behind.

So the black hole seperates anti-matter and matter and even poofs electrons out of thin air eh…Where’d the black hole come from? Doesn’t sound like much of a poof to me if the black hole is doing the poofing.

Read the book. It’s in the book. It’s not difficult to understand.

If one doesn’t believe in God then it pretty much follows that one doesn’t believe in creation. Forgive me if I jump to conclusions.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by the word “creation.” If you mean “the story told in the Bible about how God created everything” then you’re quite correct that one who doesn’t believe in God would also not believe in creation. If by creation you meant “the universe” then you’d be incorrect in your assumption.

I believe in God because of the big picture… I believe because of everything that I’ve experienced in conjunction with my knowledge that a sub-atomic particle can’t just appear by itself.

And you know it can’t because...?
Are you even remotely familiar with E=mc^2? According to the most commonly accepted Big Bang theory, most of the basic particles of matter were created in the first few microseconds of the Big Bang. Hawkings expands on this basic explanation in his books.

Again, you have to keep in mind the simple fact that we don’t know everything and our current theories on how the basic particles are formed could be flawed or incorrect, but simply not knowing the answer doesn’t provide support for the idea of a God. Which is essentially what you’re saying here. “A sub-atomic particle can’t just appear by itself so I believe in God.” Explain to me how God makes sub-atomic particles “just appear” if that’s the correct answer?

I believe that there was a begining to matter. Sure, my imaginitive inabilities don’t provide any absolute proof. I never said that it did.

Read a few science books and you’ll have all the proof of that belief you need. No one disagrees that matter had a beginning.

My belief in miracles is supported by my belief in God wich is supported by my preceeding comments. Your belief in miracles is supported by your imaginations.

I don’t believe in miracles. Miracles are events that violate the basic laws of the universe and I don’t believe such events happen. So to claim that I believe in miracles would be incorrect.

To believe that there isn’t a God is equivalent to believing that matter can create itself based on the assumption that there was a begining. If you don’t believe that there was a beginging and that it always existed then yes you do believe in miracles. Although, I would insist that someone who believes this might not fully grasp the concept of infinity. Kudos on the vivid imaginations.

Matter is just another form of energy. Energy can’t be destroyed, it can only change form. Therefore it logically has to have always been there in one form or another. E=mc^2. There’s nothing miraculous about it.

For comparison: There’s this really nice guy who’s always been around who somehow manages to make everything happen simply through desiring it and all he wants for the gift of your existence is your unconditional love otherwise he’ll send you away to a horrible place where you will suffer eternal torment.

I’d say you believers are the ones with the vivid imaginations. Sounds silly when you break it down, doesn’t it?

brock....

..Take that you Bile Bull thumper, you.

the scripture you are referring to is not referring as the Kingdom of God as a childish thing.  but you already know that.

your use of scripture reminds me of satan tempting Jesus in the wilderness and his use of scripture against Christ.

brock you are guilty as charge of the very thing you accuse christians of.

when you stand before the judge it will all be clear.  you do have a hope, and that hope is in Christ.  neither you or I can be good enough.  we are all already guilty.  but you know that too.

i know that you have already made a decision to reject what i call as truth, and i am sure you are aware of what scripture says about that too.

(i am basing what i am saying you know by your posts, not by judging what i think may be in your heart)

unbelievers seem to think they can really shock a believer by quoting a scripture or two.  it doesnt, the ol’ slew foot himself knows more than most Christians.

if anyone believes in a god somewhere that does not exist, while a few others dont believe in one at all.  i dont think the reason for it is because they have not grown up and still have the mind of a 5 year old.

i am sure that you and the other judgmental non-believers on this site will have very good excuses to lay out in detail.  you will quote carl sagan and others great scientists, lawyers, teachers, and philosophers, when you are asked the big question…

but unfortunately they will all fall short.

thank you for the scripture you quoted, it has encouraged me to be a man and walk strong in my faith today.

unbelievers seem to think they can really shock a believer by quoting a scripture or two. it doesnt, the ol’ slew foot himself knows more than most Christians.

We don’t think we’ll shock you anymore than you should think that repeating the same versus over and over again are likely to convince us they’re true. Seeing as you appear resistant to reason Brock was merely trying to speak to you in the only language you appear to understand.

if anyone believes in a god somewhere that does not exist, while a few others dont believe in one at all. i dont think the reason for it is because they have not grown up and still have the mind of a 5 year old.

Nor is that what Brock said. You were the one encouraging Sherra to never grow-up, not Brock. Brock merely pointed out that even the Scriptures advocate putting away childish beliefs when reaching adulthood. Obviously Brock considers the concept of God to be as childish as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny (and I would agree), but he wasn’t saying that people who grow up and still believe in God have the mind of a five year old. Stop putting words in people’s mouths.

i am sure that you and the other judgmental non-believers on this site will have very good excuses to lay out in detail. you will quote carl sagan and others great scientists, lawyers, teachers, and philosophers, when you are asked the big question…

but unfortunately they will all fall short.

You seem to be sure of a lot of things you can’t possibly be sure of. You’re again showing your preconceptions (read: you’re being judgmental) on what you believe would be our reactions when faced with a Creator and it’s pretty stereotypical of what most believers seem to think we’ll be our reaction.

For the record, IF it turns out there is a God then my reply would be purely honest. I will say: I did what I believed was the right thing to do.

No excuses. Just a simple explanation and if it’s not good enough then it’s not good enough. IF it turns out that God described in the Bible is accurate then I’ll probably end up in Hell, but then I would’ve anyway as at this point even if I did believe in God it probably wouldn’t be the Christian concept of him as I don’t consider him worthy of worship.

Those are some pretty big “ifs” though and I’m not all that worried that such an event will ever come to pass.

thank you for the scripture you quoted, it has encouraged me to be a man and walk strong in my faith today.

Oh how stoic of you! To so bravely continue to believe in the face of such stern contempt! Perhaps someday Mel Gibson will make a movie about you called My Walk Through the Valley of the Stupid Evil Bastards! I’ll be played by William Defoe after he puts on about 40 pounds and you’ll be played by, oh I dunno, Brad Pitt with a bad haircut and a nervous tic like in 12 Monkeys.

Better than coffee!

Sometimes I find it hard to tell the alcohol to shut up and not make smartass remarks…

then I remember I haven’t had anything to drink in the last two weeks.

les,,,

you give yourself way too much credit.  it does not take any faith, perserverance, steadfastness, on my part or anyone elses to type a post on this site. 

i would hardly say it is any kind of persecution what you guys dish out.

by walking strong in my faith today i was referring to the things that i will face, two funerals, and a friend not wanting to live anymore, not the banter between you, brock, (all the other anti’s,) and myself.

Randall,

I wouldn’t think it would take any of those things to post on this site either, but you sometimes act like it does. And I also wouldn’t say that we dish out persecution here, but a lot of people act like we do. If your faith helps you deal with the troubles you’re facing today then so much the better for you. As I’ve said before, I’m not out to take away anyone’s security blanket.

les,,,

i appreciate your comment.  i would not say you dish out persecution either.  i never have thought that, but i have thought or assumed certain comments (not by you) were meant to be as such.

i do need my faith and all of the things i feel it means to me.  security blanket, that is fine.  call it what you want....but hebrews 11:6 says that without it i can not please God.

so far the day has proved to be somewhat a success for others that have needed faith help as well.  (i wont bore you with their stories)

again les, i apologize to you for the times i seem arrogant toward you or other atheists here that are sincere about their beliefs and not out here just for shock-value.  i also apologize for the times i am purposefully condemning towards you or others.  that is not the heart of my everyday life,,,but i do occasionally get beyond the boundaries.

Posted by randall 03-05-04 ...the scripture you are referring to is not referring as the Kingdom of God as a childish thing. but you already know that.

Actually I was simply trying to illustrate how annoying quoting scripture can be. I’m no expert by and means, but I believe the passage I quoted from 1st Corinthians is dealing with charity. “Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up. Corinthians 13:4
Charity is defined as “ Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity. Indulgence or forbearance in judging others.” I meant to imply that Sherra is far from charitable and even quite childish with her technique. And as Les suggested, I do feel that many who believe in God have a childlike ability to accept the fantastic. Little thought goes into the why and how of Him. He simply is and disbelief is hardly considered. This is why advocates of Christianity like to reach out to children. They know if they can get a child to believe and backup that belief with fear, the child will likely grow up enslaved to the religion. Eventually the child will stop asking “why” and just accept. I would venture to guess that you have (or had) religious parents and grandparents who taught you to believe without question. And if they didn’t do that, society did.

Posted by Sherra 03-04-04…one day you will be face to face with your Creator and then we’ll see who’s right and who’s wrong. May God have mercy on your souls. Just wait, one day you will be forced to your knees and made to call Him “King of kings” and “Lord of lords!” And you will remember all the times He sent someone into your life to try to help you believe, but it will be too late then. Mark my words…

We rebuke her and she says “just wait” and “you will remember all the times He sent someone into your life to try and help you believe…”
It seems that she’s our savior- not Jesus. She’s our judge and jury. You take this stance too, and often.

You keep telling us randall, that you don’t appreciate the bad Christians either, but as soon as one comes here and mutters the holy propaganda, you’re ready to defend her over us. You say it’s not your right to judge but you judge us virtually every time you come here.

posted by randall 03-05-04 your use of scripture reminds me of satan tempting Jesus in the wilderness and his use of scripture against Christ.

Actually I was going to point out that you and people like Sherra seem more like Satan’s little helpers than God’s, to me.

Did you read my response in the “Atheist dressed as devil brings out the worst in ‘Passion’ viewers” thread when you asked me whether I believed in a God?” Look it up! It’s my March 2nd response. Then tell me if it made any sense to you. Tell me why we have to have a master creator. Tell me why I’m wrong for what I believe.

Why do I bother talking to people like you here? I realize you’ll believe what you’re comfortable believing. I don’t think you’re a bad person, but I think ignorance and stoicism lead to abuse and justification of harming others. I know that people like you vote too, and I don’t think you really have my rights and preferences in mind when you do. I have to hope that I can undo some of the rigidity of your belief system. I have to hope that you won’t hurt me under the guise of helping me.

You see the trials and tribulations of belief as us against God. I see them as us against us. You don’t have to be ashamed of being human - of being alive. All you have to do is investigate the potential of it all. What is is! What will be will be! Just be the best human you can be and leave the after for after.

And I’m sorry to hear about your friend’s situation.

so far the day has proved to be somewhat a success for others that have needed faith help as well. (i wont bore you with their stories)

I’m sorry, but I have to speak again and say dude, you are so arrogant! If I can accomplish anything I would like to stop people like you from messing with peoples minds.

And you’re probably so proud of yourself.

Come on, give me a little credit...by insulting my intelligence you invalidate yourself.  It makes you look like an upset pouting child. An intellegent upset pouting child.  I’ve heard of E=MC^2 and it agrees with me so far.  Multiple experiments have supported it.  But all that Einstein’s theory does is explain how matter can change form.  Now the question that results is where did the energy come from?  What we have is a cycle of energy to matter to energy etc...it still has no begining.  You have simply changed your argument to:  Energy poofed out of thin air.  Which is basically the same argument.  Which is basically the same miracle. 

You can backpace as much as you like, eventually there is going to have to be an explaination of how something created itself.  If that doesn’t happen, then deductive reasoning says that energy or matter has existed forever.  Either something created itself or matter has existed forever with no begining.  Like I said, backpace as much as you like and that is what you end up with.  I believe that the only way that either of these scenarios is possible is through a divine force.  I know that isn’t what you are looking for.  Tough nuts. 

I’m here to say, I’m familiar with your proposals.  I’ve taken a good look and I’ve found that they hold less water than God’s existance.  In my mind an aetheist telling a believer that he is blind is like vomit telling doo-doo that it stinks.  Neither of us have absolute proof, it’s just that we give less credit to our imginations. 

But you do bring up some good points about Christian imaginations.  I agree, Christians are guilty of coming up with some pretty good whoppers.  The story about Jesus face in a tortilla or the fence post make me cringe...oh well.  I’ve done what I can to admit our ignorance.  In my experience, many aetheists and agnostics aren’t as aware as you are.  Some of them know very little about Christianity.  As a result my discussions with them didn’t get very far.  Many Christians are wack-o but so are many aetheists and agnostics. 

We both know that listing circumstial evidence would do neither of us any good.  I’ll just leave it at that.

I appologize if I’ve come across as attempting to prove you wrong.  In hind sight I can definitely see how you would think that.  I liked what you wrote and I wanted to hear more.

Come on, give me a little credit… by insulting my intelligence you invalidate yourself. It makes you look like an upset pouting child. An intellegent upset pouting child.

Asking if you’re remotely familiar with E=mc^2 is insulting your intelligence? Do you know what the rate of scientific illiteracy is in this country? Roughly 70% of the population lacks a clear understanding of the scientific process according to a 2001 National Science Foundation survey. That HALF the population didn’t know “that the earliest humans did not live at the same time as dinosaurs, that it takes Earth one year to go around the Sun, that electrons are smaller than atoms, and that antibiotics do not kill viruses.” Given that, please explain to me why I should assume based on your replies so far that you’re not part of that 70 percent when you’re asking some faily basic questions such as “where did the subatomic particles come from?”

Trust me, when I want to insult your intelligence I’ll make it obvious enough that you’ll know it.

I’ve heard of E=MC^2 and it agrees with me so far. Multiple experiments have supported it. But all that Einstein’s theory does is explain how matter can change form. Now the question that results is where did the energy come from? What we have is a cycle of energy to matter to energy etc…it still has no begining. You have simply changed your argument to: Energy poofed out of thin air. Which is basically the same argument. Which is basically the same miracle.

You’re obviously not reading everything I wrote. I already gave that answer. You even said it yourself: It has no beginning. It didn’t “poof out of thin air” because it’s always been there. There’s not much reason to think otherwise unless you need a good excuse to justify the existence of God. There’s nothing miraculous about it.

You can backpace as much as you like, eventually there is going to have to be an explaination of how something created itself. If that doesn’t happen, then deductive reasoning says that energy or matter has existed forever. Either something created itself or matter has existed forever with no begining. Like I said, backpace as much as you like and that is what you end up with.

And with that you’ve just answered your own question. Deductive reasoning says energy or matter has existed forever with no beginning. I find it pretty funny that you’re answering your own question, but can’t recognize it.

I believe that the only way that either of these scenarios is possible is through a divine force. I know that isn’t what you are looking for. Tough nuts.

I accept that’s what you believe, but if energy has no beginning and has always been there then the need for a “divine force” is debatable. Not sure why you seem to think that energy moving from one form to another through an understood process that has always existed somehow needs a God to explain it, but that’s your problem, not mine.

For that matter, you still haven’t answered my question on how God manages to make something from nothing. Oh, wait, I know: ‘Cause he’s God! How silly of me.

I’m here to say, I’m familiar with your proposals. I’ve taken a good look and I’ve found that they hold less water than God’s existance.

OK, that’s your conclusion based on your understanding of the evidence. I disagree. I find the idea of a being capable of causing something to come from nothing even more preposterous than I do the idea of it happening on its own. That’s my conclusion from taking a good look around.

In my mind an aetheist telling a believer that he is blind is like vomit telling doo-doo that it stinks. Neither of us have absolute proof, it’s just that we give less credit to our imginations.

Then why are you here trying to tell me my opinion is wrong? It’s certainly no worse than a believer trying to tell an atheist he is blind and I’ve been told that many, many times on this site.

I’ve never claimed to have absolute proof and I never will. I have explained, many times, my reasons for not believing in God only to have folks like yourself show up and say things like: “If there isn’t a God then how does ANYTHING exist? There is no existance without a divine force.”

Sound familiar? It should! It’s you coming here to my website and basically trying to tell me I’m full of shit. Fine, I accept that you believe that statement to be true, but if you’re going to tell me I’m full of shit then back it up with a sound argument or go the fuck home.

I love how you folks like to show up, tell me how wrong I am and then complain about how I’m trying to tell you how wrong you are when I refuse to accept what you have to say without question. I have no problems with the idea that you don’t agree with me and I’m perfectly willing to allow you to live in your fantasy world if you so choose to do so, but if you’re going to tell me I’m wrong I’m going to call you on the carpet to prove it and if you don’t like it, well, “tough nuts.”

But you do bring up some good points about Christian imaginations. I agree, Christians are guilty of coming up with some pretty good whoppers. The story about Jesus face in a tortilla or the fence post make me cringe…oh well. I’ve done what I can to admit our ignorance.

Hell, I even accept the possibility that these things could be the work of God, if we assume for the sake of argument that he does exist, but one would hope that he’d have better things to do with his time than leave bad artwork all over the place as “proof” of his existence.

In my experience, many aetheists and agnostics aren’t as aware as you are. Some of them know very little about Christianity. As a result my discussions with them didn’t get very far. Many Christians are wack-o but so are many aetheists and agnostics.

You’ll get nothing but agreement with me on that whole paragraph. Of course there are goofball atheists and agnostics as well as Christians. No group is immune from having goofballs in their ranks. There are also plenty of atheists who are largely ignorant about Christianity or religions in general, but then there are a lot of Christians who seem to be pretty ignorant of Christianity for that matter. Again, like the goofballs, no group is immune from having members that just decided to pick a group to belong to without really having any real reasons for doing so.

We both know that listing circumstial evidence would do neither of us any good. I’ll just leave it at that.

So be it then. I accept that you feel there’s enough of said evidence to convince you to believe. I require a bit more convincing.

I appologize if I’ve come across as attempting to prove you wrong. In hind sight I can definitely see how you would think that. I liked what you wrote and I wanted to hear more.

Don’t sweat it too much. I don’t take these conversations all that personally. Can’t afford to if I’m going to hold a minority opinion and speak it freely. I expect folks like you to drop in and challenge me on this stuff from time to time. Hell, I encourage it. It forces me to re-examine my opinions and my reasons for them and hopefully it gives you folks something to consider in return. I don’t expect to convert anyone, just get folks to think a little and expose them to a different viewpoint for a change.

bowdwn5,
If everything needs to have a beginning (or creator), then where did your god come from? If you think he/she/it has always existed, then why do you find it so hard to ponder that energy has always existed?

brock,,,no i am not proud of myself.  i doubt that i am humble enough either (in my eyes or others).  and you brought up a point that is a reason that i am on this site.  i am trying to understand how i can appropriate my beliefs to help others without an attempt to convert them, if that makes sense??

i do not want you or anyone else to live in a society that is forced to practice any form or religion or christianity.  i feel a lot of “laws” “rules” etc that christ taught are considered good by the average person. 

what i realize (as a christian) that the life that the Word of God teaches us to live is impossible without his help.

and from a christian perspective, faith in Christ cannot be forced on a person.  you cant just go through the motions and live it right, at least i cant. 

so i dont think its right to pass laws, that people without a faith in Christ feel forced to live, when the people that have a supposed faith in Him have a hard enough time living by those things…

so i am right there with ya on the beliefs and things that would hurt the next person and i am just trying to work through all of that and have something that makes sense to me.

but obviously a lot of christian beliefs do bring separation or division. i do not want that, but also refuse to compromise a belief that i do have.

to me its not about you or me being right.  i feel that God’s word is right and that is the standard that i try to live by, and at the same time not expect everyone else to accept that standard, thus we keep banging heads.

brock,,,

i also just noticed,,in the above post i was not referring to myself in the success thing, but the success of others.  sorry if it looked as if i was proping myself up.

(Valhalla) You have to understand that I exclude God from everything else (meaning that he has more ability).  I don’t think of energy and God on the same plain.  You have to understand that because I don’t think of God and energy as equal, it follows (in my mind) that God would have more ability than energy.  Therefore I have no problem with God existing forever but struggle to say the same about energy.  I’m not saying that you should think this, I’m just letting you peak inside my head. 

(Les) Energy requires something external in order to be set into motion.  If we continue to backpeddle eventually we have to answer how energy was set into motion.  Energy at rest doesn’t have the ability to move itself.  All that is happening here is backpeddling which is the exact reason that you admit that you don’t know everything.  Eventually you come to a wall.  I just want to point that out, nothing wrong with that.  Especially since this website is all about free discussion. 

Anytime there is dissension it’s only natural to think that the opposition is wrong.  All that I’ve done is state my opinions...if that approach is threatening to you then maybe you aren’t as open as you think. 

I didn’t mean to agitate anyone, I just thought it would be beneficial to engage in debate with differing opinions.  I place high value on the journey of everyone.  I’m just here to learn something and present a different angle from time to time.  Hopefully I’ve represented a part of Christianity that is concerned with finding the truth, not just condemning and crusading.

Oh yeah, I don’t think that you are full of doo-doo.  I LIKE what you have to say...it’s honest.