The possession had occurred after Upshaw had prayed over and laid hands on a sexual deviant who was possessed, he said. Because he was not “prayed up” at the time, the demons transferred into his body, causing him to lust after his wife’s elementary- and middle school-aged daughters.

Eligigle for parole after 12.5 years.

What I know of the treatment of child molesters by other inmates sometimes brings a smile to my face.

Hey, and just to play ... well, you know ... how do we know he WASN’T really possessed by demons?  Come on, let’s see some proof that they don’t exist!  I mean, we read about ‘em in books all the time, right?  And the fact that there’s evil in the world MUST prove their existence, right?  There are lots of things we don’t understand, right?  Science can’t prove everything, right?

Sorry, I woke up on the silly side of bed this morning.

Even christians dont fall for this shit...at least most, I hope…

Oh, many do.  There’s Satan, demons, witchcraft, all sorts of things.  So I’m curious:  how does the modern-day Christian decide what to believe?  Or, more to the point, how do you decide where to STOP believing?  Can you really believe in angels, for example, and not in demons?  If so, how do you explain your acceptance of one and denial of the other?

Uh… I really want to hear a good answer to that last question. I often ask religious friends how they pick and choose what words in the bible to believe and which ones to ignore and they always give me a blank stare. Shrimp or sodomy, or both?

Shrimp or sodomy, or both?

?...................................................?..........................?........Could I have some of both, please!

(kiddin)

Brock, that sounds like a buffet franchise that could really take off!  To hell with Hooters-- Shrimp’n’Sodomy- Yesterday’s Abominations, Today’s Shellfish Pleasures!

Investors welcome!

maryh, will you marry me?

So I’m curious: how does the modern-day Christian decide what to believe? Or, more to the point, how do you decide where to STOP believing? Can you really believe in angels, for example, and not in demons? If so, how do you explain your acceptance of one and denial of the other?

I believe what’s in the Bible, I do not pick and choose. I also believe that a person is responsible for what they do, possessed or not. So, while there are angels and there are demons (fallen angels), in order to be possessed, one must be willing. Saying that you’re not responsible something because you were possessed, would be like saying your weren’t guilty because you were drunk.

In fact, I have the same problem as you with Christians that say that they do not believe the Bible is 100% true. It leaves them in a spot where they then become the judge of what is right and wrong all over again, placing them in the seat of God.

maryh: sounds like a shell of great place to eat, but I’m not sure you’d get a lot of takers on the floor show…

Hey Geekmom!  If I weren’t already hitched, I’d marry you on principle.  (Marrying you DESPITE my being hitched would only give weight to the slippery slope argument.  And, of course, marrying you and several of your/my housepets would prove beyond a doubt that the President’s marriage amendment is the single most important piece of legislature in the history of our species.)

OK David, that’s a great answer. You believe the Bible is 100% true. Now do you follow all of it? Do you always do what it tells you to do? If you don’t, then how do you decide which stuff to follow and which stuff just aint for you. It’s gotta be kinda hard what with all of the contradictions. Dot you just interpret it to work for your lifestyle? Which version of the bible are you using? I mean, the first testament says the earth is flat (can’t for the life of me figure out why God didn’t let the guys writing his words down in on that little bit of info). I don’t claim to be a theological scholar, but I seem to run into too many people who let a book dictate their whole lives when they don’t have a clue to it’s political history. I’m not referring to you. I’m just sayin’.

David, when you say you believe in all of the bible, are you including the OT? And do you mean you believe it literally, as a guide to punitive action?  I guess I’m asking because there seems to be a swell in Biblical Law proponents, and that movement strikes me as extremely troubling.

BTW, I think the floor shows at Shrimp’n’Sodomy(c) would be a boffo super-smash!  Maybe not wholesome fun for the whole family, but grandma & grandpa might get a chance to shake off some of those long-cherished inhibitions..
(Investors welcome.)

maryh, I loves me some slippery slopes.  I mean, aren’t waterslides and snow-covered hills just the MOST FUN??  We can get our hubbies together and if they get along, we can still get hitched.  We don’t have any pets, but if you like kids, we could sure use some extra parental hands around here (especially if you promise NOT to make them learn the Pledge).  My hubby bakes amazing bread.  I think that’s reason enough to get married, don’t you?

Whoa, keep this kind of talk up and I’ll have to change the name of the site to something else!

dirtyevilfunlovers.com?

Ok, Hillary was wrong. It doesn’t take a village.

It takes the Stupid Evil Bastard site to raise a child right.

Hey, that should be a slogan!

Do I follow everything in the Bible?
I use the Bible as my guide to right and wrong. Sometimes I do things that are wrong. Sometimes, even premeditatedly. I have a goal that is hard, even impossible, to reach, but I don’t let that stop me from trying. Just as you might have a goal that says that you should always be kind to others in need, but sometimes you zoom down the highway past some guy broken down on the side of the road. I don’t think simply because I am forgiven when I sin, that there is no consequence for my lack of obedience. If I break the law of the land, I pay a fine, go to jail, or am executed, and that is my due for breaking the law of the land. Forgiveness as granted by God is between Him and me, not between me and the state.

I believe in the OT and NT, the 66 books of the Bible (not the apocrypha). I believe some of what is there is obviously parable. Some of it is possibly parable.  For instance, I’m sure you’re itching to club me on my stand on creation. I think a direct creation in 7 literal days is certainly possible, I also think evolution, even the big bang is possible, but that they were directed by God. I’ve never read anything (and I’ve read a number of arguments for and against) that would lead me to conclude that any single explanation of the process is absolutely certain, or even beyond reasonable doubt. And that’s all evolution could ever hope to show: how it happened, not what caused it to happen. God said to Job:

(38:2) “Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? (38:3) Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. (38:4) “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand...”

I think I’ll avoid the berating that follows for the next chapter or 2 and wait until I have concrete evidence before making a stand on how exactly God went about it.

As far as believing in the Law, I’m going to ask you to look at this topic:
http://stupidevilbastard.com/archives/2004/02/27/god_hates_shrimp.php
I wish I new how to make that an active link, or better yet go directly to the page mark that I know is there, but my html skills are passable at best. It’s not a long topic, I’m sure you’ll easily find the pertinent post I wrote there.

Dot you just interpret it to work for your lifestyle? Which version of the bible are you using?

I use several translations typically the NIV, but also DNT, YLT, NASB and even KJV. There really isn’t much difference, but sometimes going to a few different direct translations can give you a good insight on what the writer meant. I think the gist of your inquiry is: do you translate it to make your behavior justified? Well, I’m human, so I’m sure I’m occasionally guilty of that. But that’s one of the reasons fellowship is so important. Other believers can come to me and hold me accountable when I try that kind of thing. If I did not allow myself to be accountable in that fashion, then I could easily fall into the trap of rationalizing my behavior.

Again, this is an area I am most curious about in anyone that does not have a codified set of ethics. It allows them to say one thing one day, and another the next, and you cannot hold them accountable to anything. In general, I am much more comfortable around a Muslim or a Platonist, who I know follows some specific set of rules, than an atheist, who has no absolutes they can be held accountable to.

Another thing that “keeps me honest” is regular Bible study. I spend at least 4 hours, sometimes as many as 10, each week studying and discussing the Word with other believers. And that does not even count the time I spend here reading opposing points of view and re-examining my stand on particular areas of scripture. Reading the whole book, getting a more complete view of the context of the entire work and the specific context of the individual writers (scribes would be a better word), researching the original Greek and Hebrew definitions, all help to give a better understanding of what the writer was communicating, and leave me less “wiggle room” to apply my rationalizations.

Brooks, I can’t say I’ve ever read in the Bible that the earth is flat. You’ll need to point me to your reference on that one.

(Isa 11:12 NRSV) ... , and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four _corners_ of the earth.
(Isa 11:12 NIV) ...of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four _quarters_ of the earth.
(Isa 11:12 KJV) ... and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four _corners_ of the earth.

The Hebrew word for corners or quarters:
kanaph, kaw-nawf’; an edge or extremity; spec. (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed-clothing) a flap, _(of the earth) a quarter_, (of a building) a pinnacle:-- + bird, border, _corner_, _end_, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).

Use in the New Tesatament:

(Rev 20:8 NRSV) and will come out to deceive the nations at the four _corners_ of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; ...

The Greek word for corners:
gonia, go-nee’-ah; an angle:--corner, quarter

Here are other scriptures of the Bible that indicate a flat earth with ends, edges, 2 verses that say the earth is a flat 2-dimensional circle (like a coin), that the earth is immovable, set on pillars or foundations.

Dan 4:10-11, Isa 40:22, Prov 8:26-28, Mat 4:8, Job 38:13, Job 11:9, Deu 13:7, Deu 28:49, Deu 28:64, Deu 33:17, 1 Sam 2:10, Job 1:7, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Psa 2:8, Psa 19:4, Psa 22:27, Psa 33:13, Psa 33:14, Psa 48:10, Psa 59:13, Psa 61:2, Psa 65:5, Psa 72:8, Acts 1:8, Acts 13:47

http://www.2think.org/hii/flat.shtml

“Wherever you find people with a great reservoir of common sense,” he says, “they don’t believe idiotic things such as the earth spinning around the sun. Reasonable, intelligent people have always recognized that the earth is flat.”

(Charles K. Johnson, president of the International Flat Earth Research Society.)

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm

1. Job 37:33 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.

Riaz : Lighting doesn’t travel around the earth the biblical god thought his earth was a small, flat one.

2. Job 38:44 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?

Riaz : If the author of the bible thought of a globe earth then the last question in job 38: 44 should of read “Who stretched a measuring line around it?”

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Riaz : Does a sphere have ends, and how can you grab the ends of a sphere? Only a flat disc or square could be grabbed and shaken in this way.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm

The earth as an immovable structure:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…

”

...the essential flatness of the earth’s surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth’s farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth’s farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...”

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

Hopeful believers in the scientific wisdom found in the Bible ignore the verse above and point to a verse in Isaiah which they think shows that the Bible writers knew the earth was a sphere.  They believe that the word “circle” could actually mean “sphere,” since both are round, but they ignore Isaiah’s use of a different word in another verse where he speaks of a “ball.” Here are the two verses:

To whom then will ye liken God? ....It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chuwg) of the earth (Isaiah 40:18-23
He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL (duwr) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord’s house.  (Isaiah 22:18)

The Hebrew word used in scripture for “circle” in the verse above is chuwg.  If the Bible writer had meant for us to believe that “circle of the earth” meant that the earth was round, the writer would have used the Hebrew word for “ball,” which is duwr.  The fact that Isaiah didn’t use duwr shows that he wasn’t trying to tell us the earth was like a ball. 

Furthermore, there exists a simple interpretation of “circle of the earth” which does not imply a spherical earth. On a hill overlooking a wide expanse free of tall trees and other hills the horizon appears as a perfect circle, 360 degrees of blue sky.  If Isaiah meant to tell us the earth was a globe, he would have used another word. A circle is not a ball, nor is a ball a circle. Everyone knew what a “circle” was in those times; it meant the same then as it means today.

http://members.aol.com/jalw/flat_earth.html

David, you say on the one hand that some parts of the Bible you believe are parable (i.e. not meant to be taken as literally true), and some that might be.  So you obviously don’t believe that every word of the Bible is literally true.

And at the same time you contrast yourself with atheists, “who [have] no absolutes that they can be held accountable to.”

If you’ve stepped on a bug recently, I don’t think you’re following absolutes either.  We have very, very, VERY few absolutes in our life.  Atheists have the convictions they have not because they were handed to them by somebody else, but because they reasoned them out.  They follow them because they believe they’re the right thing to do, not because they’re going to be held accountable to some mythical super-parent. 

I could write down my personal “specific set of rules” for you, so you could hold me to them, but I somehow don’t think that would reassure you at all.  I think you feel better when someone still has a parent lording it (ha) over them.

Ok, Hillary was wrong. It doesn’t take a village.

It takes the Stupid Evil Bastard site to raise a child right.

I’d certainly have no problem with my almost-teen hanging out around here… I’m anxiously awaiting the day she tires of slumming with the crowd on neopets.com!  In fact, maybe while she’s off at her friend’s house today, I’ll go reset her home page to SEB.  :evillaugh:

Muuuuhaaaaaahaaaaa! OB!

David said: - Again, this is an area I am most curious about in anyone that does not have a codified set of ethics. In general, I am much more comfortable around a Muslim or a Platonist, who I know follows some specific set of rules, than an atheist, who has no absolutes they can be held accountable to.

You really have your head up your ass, dude. How can you actually believe that rules decide the actions of the believer? I have a personal set of ethics I live by and I’ll bet they are every bit as valid and benign as yours; perhaps more so. Main difference between us is that I learned to be accountable on my own. I don’t need a hazy and contradictory rulebook to teach me what I’ve learn from living instead.

And how the hell do you know for a fact that a Muslim or a Platonist “always follows some specific set of rules”? 

Reading the whole book, getting a more complete view of the context of the entire work and the specific context of the individual writers (scribes would be a better word), researching the original Greek and Hebrew definitions,all help to give a better understanding of what the writer was communicating, and leave me less “wiggle room” to apply my rationalizations.

I don’t think the whole world could accommodate the wiggle room you would need, or often take, to justify your beliefs. I had you pegged from the beginning when I called you a bigot.

Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I believe some of what is there is obviously parable. Some of it is possibly parable.

In other words you pick and choose what you want to believe is absolute truth; what absolutely happened, and what is allegory or parable!
Nice wiggle there David.

Welcome to a philosophical world, not a theocratic one!

Hey David, I don’t think someone who has the brain power to actually tell the difference between right and wrong needs a Bible to show them the distance. The Bible is no more a guide of what’s right and what’s wrong than a Lord of the Rings novel. I don’t read the fucking bible, and I don’t go to church. I know the difference between right and wrong nonetheless and I don’t need a crutch like a bible. All a bible does is back people up when they fuck children or kill their wives. If you’re ever looking for a loop hole, check out the bible my friends.

Holy Crap! Thanks Broc! You did a much better job at the Flat Earth argument than I ever could have. What’s funny is that many stuck to it even after astronomers proved the earth was round. Just goes to show you how some people believe the first thing they read and can never be convinced otherwise.

Christian scholar Saint Augustine [354-430 A.D.] and Father Lactantius, etc., continued the traditional denial of the earth’s roundness, claiming rain would “fall upward” in places and that even if upside-down people could live on a globe’s bottom, then they couldn’t see the Savior’s return in glory.

Wha?? Isn’t it “scholars” like these that wrote the book? Doesn’t that bother you?

Oh… I love this quote from one of our Founding Fathers.

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the bible is filled, it would seem more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
Thomas Paine (1737 - 1809), “The Age of Reason”