Yep, definitely familiar with that one. I had a friend in highschool was raised as a Chrisitian and until his junior year in highschool stayed a faithful servant of the good book. Something, however, changed in him that year and he changed completely. He grew out his hair, became something of a goth, and became something of a rabid atheist. About two years later he changed again; he found his faith again. I suppose it was simply another case of teenage rebellion, but it was difficult to really tell which faith was right for him. In one respect, he was an honest Christian, and while I felt he was a bit of a tool for devoting his life to such a ridiculous story, he was probably one of the few Christians I had respected because he was ultimately a good man and friend. He never forced his beliefs on anyone and was more of a pacifist than Buddha. To put a finer point on it, he was a true Christian. As an atheist, however, he was everything typical Christians think of atheists. He stole, smoke, drank, betrayed his friends and family and was generally an asshole. I’ve always believed that when he lost his faith, the bleak outlook he took on life got the better of him. For some reason he felt that were there no afterlife, there would be no repurcussions for his actions. Once he adopted his Christian value system again, he was as right as rain. Ultimately, I believe he was one of the few examples of how faith can better a man. Perhaps not. Either way, his example left a lasting impression on myself and I vowed that as an atheist, I would follow a personal code of ethics and morals. In a sense, I became a secular humanist. As for the man concerned, well, the two of us had a falling out after his original conversion and we’ve yet to mend what was a wonderful friendship. He’s managed to forgive and forget, but I find it impossible. I suppose that’s one of the few decent things about theists, well, some theists anyway, is that they have that ability. I, however, do not find it so easy.

Just a point to clarify my reluctance here.

It’s the combination oh his personality with the religion that has me disturbed, not just the religion. I have plenty of friends who are Christians, it’s seldom an issue. But this paticular fellow has always been a VERY agressive guy. (Try picturing a combination of Hunter Thompson and Kramer, from Seinfeld, minus the recent racial problems.) The kind who believes that anyone who doesn’t agree with him is “The Enemy”. Judging from his website, that hasn’t changed.

In the past, we were similar enough that it was never an issue. That is no longer the case. I can picture only two reactions from him, he’d either try to convert me, constantly, or he’d just reject me out of hand as a non-believer doomed to hell.

I’ve followed the thread with interest, because my first reaction was to be irked as well.  After reading the post by Les, there isn’t much to add.

I would say this to atheists in general, given the overwhelming majority that we represent, surely there has to be at least a few of us that can mix in with your affairs, share a smoke, make a joke, and together, grasp and reach for a leg of hope.   If there aren’t a few theists that you call friends, that is probably more a reflection on your personality.

Dave: To what extent is that other person simply challenging my own beliefs or priorities or lifestyle in a way that’s uncomfortable, vs. being unhealthy (to them and/or me)?  And, of course, how much of a challenge am I looking for in that area of my life, vs. someone just to sit back with and share a few beers?

That is a good question, and one that I even asked myself when I first found myself upset to hear of friends’ conversions. In the end, though, I look at the changes that have occurred in the people that I used to love so much and I realize that they truly have become different people. That can be an extremely painful realization (and in the case of Ricki especially, it was devastating).

Deep down, I suspect that I am being selfish by harboring unfavorable feelings toward the changes in my friends. If these changes make them happy, who am I to complain? At the same time, I have tried to imagine what it would be like for me personally to adopt such changes, and I really cannot imagine it. It would require negating who I really am and all that I believe in, and I cannot do that. And to put on a mask when I associate with formerly close friends out of fear of offending them is something that I have a very hard time doing. If the friendship is genuine, one should not have to pretend, yet that is what I end up doing around friends like Ricki. Could it be that Ricki really doesn’t have a problem with me at all and that it’s all in my head? Could it be that the discomfort that we experience whenever we get in touch is simply a function of some self-fulfilling prophecy on my part? That is quite possible, and don’t think I haven’t strongly considered it. On the other hand, I have attempted to tell jokes or relate stories that would have at one time sent Ricki into hysterics that barely crack a smile on her face now.

Now it could very well be the case that all of these changes are not related to religion so much as simply the effects of growing up, moving away, etc. However, in the cases of friends such as Ricki, my gut feeling is that their adoption of these religious beliefs has dramatically altered them as people, and there is much to support this idea.

Well, I feel ya KPG, and the choice is yours. I had a friend named Nick, we went to my first round of post-secondary together. I left that place, he stayed and moved on with his life. When I’d come back to Calgary, we bumped into each other a couple times. We got to talking about abortion at one point and the conversation was bitterly divisive.

Of course, we were both offended at the stance the other person took, as well as the way we expressed those stances. That’s not to say that Nick’s an idiot, although I found his position on abortion to be among those positions I respect the least. The simple reality is that he and I have changed a lot. By my own volition, I’d changed radically in the two years we’d been apart. He has a very firm set of ethics, which he holds in very high esteem. I have a handful of ethical and behavioral paradigms that I follow, but no ethical code to speak of.

The rest has been said, but growing apart is natural. Don’t feel bad; as Webs said, you’re no worse for wear as a result of it.

I have one more point to add, and I’m trying hard to figure out how to say it without sounding incredibly condescending. I particularly do not want to offend Dave or Consig, because I have a lot of respect for both of you, regardless of whatever disagreements we might have.

I don’t believe it is possible to look at the evidence and rationally conclude that God exists. Almost by definiton, faith is irrational. Perhaps that is its strength. Most of the Christians I know have been so all their lives. I decided long ago that many of these people are rational beings who, for whatever reason, never left that faith. Some make the choice, some never even consider questioning it, some are just so deeply indoctrinated that it is impossible for their rational mind to overcome it.

But for a person who had not been a believer all their life, who turned from rationality to religion because it seemed like the right path, to me, that seems like insanity. Like suddenly believing in alien abduction or the Loch Ness Monster.

sigh.

as Webs said, you’re no worse for wear as a result of it.

Not quite true.  The loss of any human connection is, in the video-gaming model, “damage”.  Enough such losses and things can start looking pretty bleak.

I am fortunate to work with an evangelical Christian who is also a great friend, and he lets my eventual fate rest in God’s hands, as I let his rest in how I understand the end of life to be.  That settled we have a tremendous amount in common and get along swimmingly.

KPG, you are on the focus of a real problem in faith/unfaith relations.  I’m really interested in how it goes when you finally contact him.

Not quite true.  The loss of any human connection is, in the video-gaming model, “damage”.  Enough such losses and things can start looking pretty bleak.

Agreed, but even if KPG contacts the old friend and the worst case scenario happens (the friends hounds him with calls to faith, and wont stop till KPG is converted) he will at least have settled the question lingering in the pit of his stomach, what will his friend’s reaction be?

To me I will take the worst case scenario any day if it means answering the question, cause I hate sitting around and wondering… What if?  I like to be the one that instead said, “You know what I took the chance.  Sure it turned out crappy but I took the chance and now I know.

And besides name one email provider that doesn’t allow you to set up rules or access lists that can easily block what you don’t want.

KPG I say do a simple cost/benefit analysis and decide.  Pick the worst case and best case scenario.  If the benefits from the best case scenario outweigh the worst then go for it.

Les: very well stated.  And I think as an atheist it is very important to be accepting of others, and not be too judgmental.  There are plenty of decent people out there that for whatever reason still believe in God.

You need to be careful, KPG, in your usage of the word “rational.“ You write…

I don’t believe it is possible to look at the evidence and rationally conclude that God exists.

The above is a rather dogmatic statement to make and it’s also irrational in itself because it presumes that everyone evaluates evidence in the same way that you do.

Rational thought, much like logical thought, is a tool that can be used properly and still lead to an incorrect conclusion. One of the dictionary definitions I’ve heard for “being rational” is to draw inferences logically from facts known or assumed and if those facts turn out to be incorrect or misinterpreted then you can be quite rational and quite wrong at the same time.

In other words two people can look at the same set of facts and end up with differing, but still rational based on their viewpoint, conclusions.

Almost by definiton, faith is irrational.

Certainly some faith is, but not all faith. I have faith in a great many things such as the loyalty of my wife. That faith is predicated on some known and assumed facts about her based on my years living with her, but it’s impossible for me to know everything there is to know about her or how she’ll react in every situation so I could be wrong on some of them.

Given what I do know my faith in my wife is entirely rational. However if she should give me reason to doubt her loyalty and I still maintained my faith in her in spite of that knowledge then my faith would irrational. The greater the evidence against that faith the more irrational it would be to hold it.

The point I’m trying to get to is this: I have no idea what it was that made Daryl or my Aunt and Uncle into True Believers™ and from my standpoint their faith seems irrational

to me

, but that doesn’t mean it actually is. They may have perfectly rational reasons for suddenly believing in God(s) that I’m just not aware of.

Of course, that doesn’t mean they’re right either.

Not quite true.  The loss of any human connection is, in the video-gaming model, “damage”.  Enough such losses and things can start looking pretty bleak.

I suppose that makes a certain amount of sense. I have a very deep-rooted philosophy on this subject, as my relationships with others have been tedious and riddled with all sorts of dangerous compromise and betrayal. In fact, I adopted those philosophies for just the reason you say. I’ll share some of it here; maybe I can put this in a new light.

The most direct way I can think of to express my feelings on this is through the following question. “what’s the difference between a person with whom you have a relationship, but no contact, and a person with whom you have no relationship?“

I can’t look at a “relationship” in any context that doesn’t involve me interacting with that person. During the time in which we are not interacting but I place some value on it, I have no way of knowing the difference until we actually interact again. Until that time, I carry on with an image in my mind of what that relationship represents to me. This image is not necessarily an accurate description. It really comes down to honoring a shared history. I mean, in our culture, you can have someone as a “good friend” even if you only speak to each other for a few minutes a couple of times a year. In essence, people are my friend only because I choose to make them so.

However, an equally satisfying answer to why I choose “friends” I’m not so clear on. I suppose because I see their interaction in my life as a benefit.

Ultimately, the point I meant to drive home was that KPG’s view of this guy existed as a simulacrum for years. I think, DoF, that the disconnect was there, only that it made itself apparent once contact was resumed. I’m sure that his conversion brought some dishonor or shame to the memories that were had of him, but that’s not to say that those memories can’t still be honored of their own merit, even if such a disconnect makes a future relationship untenable. That friendship, that time in that place, with that guy, regardless of who he is now, was what was meaningful, both of itself and what it means to who KPG is now. That history, that impact, won’t change.

Very good thoughts, Patness.  Thanks for sharing them.

There are several axes on which the importance of the relationship and damage its loss can cause, interact.  A few examples:

I really pissed off one of my readers this morning; I’d hate to lose a reader because I really enjoy the comments he leaves but if he never comes back to my blog, I expect I’ll manage.  Lots of contact, not a deep relationship

On the other hand I only speak to my brother once or twice a year.  But (and this is the ‘simulacrum’ you so aptly described) if past experience is any indication, if I called him up tonight I expect he’d be glad to hear from me, we’d talk for a while as if we didn’t live in different states and had never been apart, we’d remember our father, our childhoods, and he’d tell me about getting ready for snomobile season with his sons.  I could drive out to Washington state right now and we’d go 4-wheeling and have a wonderful time, and either one of us would extend an offer to live with the other.  Not much contact, but a good relationship, and one that matters a lot to me.

On the other, other hand, my oldest son is estranged from our family.  There was some problem between us that I really don’t completely understand, and I am pretty sure is somehow my fault.  I miss him terribly (3 years now) and yet he has made it abundantly clear he wants nothing to do with me or his mother, and worst of all, his brothers.  By ‘damage’ I refer to the feeling of broken glass in my chest that I get when I think about it, including right now but sometimes much worse in the night when I wonder where he is.  No contact, no relationship, only a (painful) memory.

In the case of my old college buddies, years went by and I pretty much depended on the simulacrum of them.  When contact was reestablished (“I no longer believe in god”) I found the simulacrum was quite accurate, and that they still believed all that rhetoric about hell and were grieved at the thought of me sizzling in eternal torment.  Well that’s kind of a conversation-stopper.  And I’m not keen to try to convince them of my point of view either as it would be a disaster for them.  Nor am I interested in causing them any pain.  Little contact, relationship on hold.

Still thinking this one through, which is why I’m so interested in what KPG finds out if he decides to contact his friend.

I’ve had so many thoughts whilst reading this ultra-interesting thread.
You are all so wise.
To my mind Friendships/relationships (excluding familial - I feel for you DoF) are a mutual using type things. If my best mate wasn’t giving me what I need (and visa versa) there’d be no friendship.
Then again ‘my mate’ who saved my sanity in Vietnam will always hold a special place in my heart.
We have little in common other than the shared holiday in Vietnam and the appreciation of beer and dope but I call him at xmas and do a bit of remembering - I owe him big-time.

Webs: You know what I took the chance.  Sure it turned out crappy but I took the chance and now I know.

This one jumped out at me - it speaks of the unknown, the challenge, the adventure ... and what is life if there’s none of that? Safety? Security?
I feel it has to be challenged now and again to be fully appreciated.
I did a fire-walk about 20 years ago - it was about trusting in physics as opposed to ‘rational knowledge’.
It was a piece of piss to a trained digger.
As Webs intimated: what’s the worst that can happen?
Right now your memory of your old relationship has been ‘tarnished’ in any case so, what could be ‘worse’?
Jump into the fire, mate. 

This is going to sound really odd, but did someone here just send me an online greting card?

Probably not.  Lots of spam floating around lately, much of it in the form of greeting cards.  Sending addresses harvested from the email clients of the enslaved computers.

I never open e-greeting cards.

I never open e-greeting cards.

Me neither.
There’s either someone out there who thinks I’m an arsehole or there’s not.
Either way I’m an ‘appy arse’ole.

Never occured to me that it could be spam. I get them occasionally, but they’re always from someone I know.

This one was unsigned, but the card said “A Friend In Need is A Friend In Deed” which just reminded me of this conversation we’ve been having here.

Could just be a coincidence…...

Could just be a coincidence…...

One of those ‘meaningful coincidences’ that shape our lives??

This sounds like the first half of the prodigal son, but in reverse. Whether or not you believe that parable, it has a lesson that applies here. It might do you good to read it. Luke Chapter 15 (NT).

To those who say that differences in belief do not necessarily preclude a friendship, sometimes it does. It depends on the people. Imagine if one of your friends became involved with white power, or became a murderer, or rapist, or a

. Many atheists feel similarly about Christians, and vise versa.

But then, the opposite is true too. In college, I was a devout Christian (and communist), and some of my most memorable, enjoyable, and educational conversations were with a couple of other kids on the bus ride home, Cici and Cameron, who were an atheist and (agnostic?).

-Bob