I second that - I hope Moses’ wife gets better soon, whatever anyone believes.

That is a very good question regarding how we are to judge what effected a cure in such a case.  And the point is that we often do not know what is responsible for cure.  Often we credit the doctors and medical care when there is a successful outcome.  When medical care does not bring healing, we generally accept it and don’t expect the professionals to be God.  It’s a matter of where we put our faith and attention.  I think we miss a lot.

I would be glad to hear that the lymphoma disappears, and wouldn’t worry too much about whether prayer or the supernatural had anything to do with it.  At the same time, I would not discount effects from those sources.

Awhile back there was an article about prayer having bad effects on the subject of the prayers.  Most references to the article were attempts to discount prayer as useless, and it got me thinking about whether I would publicly declare it if I had a serious illness.  I would not.  And the reason is that I would not want knowledge of my illness in the minds of many people, including strangers and people who would pray for me.  I do not doubt that prayer and other psychological/spiritual forces are effective, and “effective” does not always mean for the better.

Les: ... motivated Looking4Truth to rally the prayer warriors:

I had a quick peak at that site.
I notice they speak in a sort ethereal, not of this world, language that I, not having been brought up in such a household/religion/way of thinking, find weird.
Don’t get me wrong; nice sentiments and all that, and I sure hope Allan’s wife gets better but, definitely weird.
It sounds Very similar to the Muslims with their ‘peace be upon him’ stuff. Weird.
I suppose there’s a special booklet available to explain the talk Talk.
No. No. No. No. I don’t want a copy.
I must admit, L4T’s spiel was cool.
He’s convinced he’s doing Sky-daddy’s work. Poor fool.

Zhyndra: “it got me thinking about whether I would publicly declare it if I had a serious illness.  I would not.”

I dunno about ‘declaring’ it but I would talk about it just like anything else.  If someone wants to pray, it might make them feel better, which is fine.

Assuming L4T will read this sooner or later:

L4T, you brave soul, evangelizing a group of atheists.  Wait - what is a group of atheists?  There’s a herd of sheep (that’s your church), a pride of lions, a murder of crows… how about “a reason of atheists”?

We’ll be a lot more impressed when God heals an amputee.  Go on… tell us about how you read a book by a missionary and they saw it happen to someone whose leg had been bitten off by a crocodile, and the whole village was converted.

There’s a herd of sheep (that’s your church), a pride of lions, a murder of crows… how about “a reason of atheists�?

Now that’s perfect, DOF. I really, really like that.

Now can we put it on a t-shirt or something? Maybe a mug…

People always claim prayer worked in cases where somebody is cured of something that can’t really be seen in the first place and there is no way of determining if it would have healed naturally on its own.
I’ll believe prayer actually works the first time a group of people pray for a missing limb to be restored and it actually grows back.
I have a feeling a group of 1 billion christians, muslims, hindus, or (insert religion here) praying non-stop for a week couldn’t get that limb to grow back again.
For what it’s worth.....I think I would adopt the religion of whatever group succeeded on the spot.
I want a confirmed missing limb though. Don’t parade out a guy with one arm and a mysterious lump down one side of the body under his shirt. I want somebody on national television, naked, and inspected by several independent medical professionals.
If it does happen, I hope it’s one of the eastern religions. I need an excuse to wear a cool robe and do kung-fu all day.

Darn....decrepitoldfool beat me to that! I should have read all the posts better.
Darn you old guy!

All the same it’s a wonderful sentiment. I can’t say I’ll pray, but if the call’s going out for public support, AWJ has mine (although I’m a student - can’t offer anything financial )

Les - How did L4T manufacture that big black hole between the top and bottom halves of his post?
Is that where our prayers get sucked into?
Or is it just my PC that’s doing it?

“A reason of atheists!” I love it!  Larkish exulting, DoF!

I agree that believing in the power of prayer is not usually harmful (unless it means abandoning action in the real world), and often useful, at least for those who pray and those who know they’re being prayed for.

I have been engaged in some online evangelism with a group of atheists who are very resiatant to the Gospel.

Resistent to the Gospel?  No, open to reason.  Typical Christian casting of the debate in black and white religious terms:  we have the truth, and atheists are resistent to the truth.

I have to agree with zilch on this one. I’ve seen what happens when men and women abandon science in search of a “savior”. Case in point, my sister. Before she passed away in 1997 she was a diabetic with cystic fibrosis and a host of other ailments I’m not really old enough to remember. What I DO remember, however, was hearing tales of a prayer group which haunted the floors of Cook’s Children’s Hospital in Ft. Worth, Texas telling children that their illness was simply god punishing them for their sins and that he would gladly heal them if they were truly faithful. I watched my sister struggle with the notion for sometime before she realized it was total bullshit. Another example was a little girl(name witheld out of respect for the dead) at the same hospital who needed a transplant desperately. Well, her church group had been advised that the family’s insurance company would not cover the expense of the surgery if they were to collect money on her behalf, but they believed that God would assist them and went ahead with their fundraiser anyway. They raised a petty $2,500 before giving up and the little girl never recieved her transplant and passed away three months later. What truly upsets me about the entire situation is the fact that the church paid for an entire renovation of its main hall the month following her passing, a renovation which cost the church almost $20,000 more than the cost of the surgery the little girl required. Jesus, now I’m pissed.

LuckyJohn, I’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Do you mean here or over at the site I linked to? I double checked this entry in both Firefox and IE and I don’t see a big hole.

can tell by the title of his website, this group has no problem with blasphemy.

Sorry, Les. On the page we’re on now there is a big gap between the quoted line above and the quoted line below.
I’m using IExplorer and I’m on Broadband as opposed to dial-up if that has any bearing and, I’m fairly computer illiterate.
If I put the slider thingy on the right of this page in the middle, the gap is to about 1” from the top till I see “problem with blasphemy”.

http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/behold_the_awesome_power_of_prayer/

Regarding “The Gap” - I’m on dialup, and The Gap only occurs when the window isn’t maximized.  Like Moses parting the Red Sea, “Restoring Down” the page causes The Gap, and playing with the window size increases The Gap exponentially. Maximizing the page closes The Gap (especially if I sacrifice an unblemished goat, and sprinkle the tips of my ears and my big toe with its blood).  Don’t know if that helps you isolate the problem or not, Les.

As for being “resistant to the Gospel”, after many, many years of having it crammed down my throat, I discovered I was ALLERGIC to it.  Once I stopped ingesting it, all symptoms disappeared!  Funny what TRUTH can do for you.

And blasphemy?  Folks, to paraphrase Charles Montgomery Burns, there has been a *marked* decline in both the quantity AND quality of your blasphemin’. 

Get on the stick, willya? 

1.  Um ... which part of “stupid,” “evil,” “bastard” is supposed to demonstrate that someone has “no problem with blasphemy”?  I mean, “stupidatheistbastard” or “stupidevilblasphemer” or “jesussucksevilbastard” or something, perhaps. 

Maybe I’ve just been desensitized hanging around here.

I’ll also comment I’m uncomfortable with the idea of “May God glorify himself.” God hardly needs to do such a thing.  Heck, according to the Lord’s Prayer (Extended Version), the Kingdom, Power and Glory are already His.

I offer up intercessory prayers on occasion (like the Old Lady & the Enema joke, “it can’t hurt!"), but I don’t do so with an expectation that the result will be what I want, or even perceptible.  There’s at least some teaching that prayer’s main effect is on the pray-ers themselves—focusing their thoughts and concerns on those who are in need (and, presumably, then doing more about it than just pray-and-forget).

BT writes…

Regarding “The Gap� - I’m on dialup, and The Gap only occurs when the window isn’t maximized.

Ah, OK, I know what’s going on now. Basically my web design skills are teh suck.

For some reason I’ve never been able to figure out Internet Exploder puts The Gap in when the window is smaller than the minimal size I designed the site for (which, as I recall, was around 800x600 resolution) whereas Firefox, which I use, doesn’t have said problem. This flaw in my CSS is one of the reasons I’ve been trying to get inspired enough to come up with a new layout.

Dave writes…

Maybe I’ve just been desensitized hanging around here.

That’s certainly possible. I admit that I’ve committed my fair share of true blasphemy in my time, but I don’t think the fact that I use naughty words is the same thing. Cussing and Blasphemy aren’t synonymous as some folks seem to think they are.

***Dave sez: There’s at least some teaching that prayer’s main effect is on the pray-ers themselves—focusing their thoughts and concerns on those who are in need (and, presumably, then doing more about it than just pray-and-forget).

***Dave, back when I was a True Believer, I read something that basically went along the lines of “prayer is for *us*, not God”.

In other words, if God is omnipotent, he doesn’t need folks to fill him in on what they want or need or worry about, etc. But when folks pray, they clarify certain things to and for *themselves*. According to the writer, it’s about changing *us*, rather than some supernatural being changing things for us. 

That made a lot more sense to me at the time than the fundie hogwash I had been indoctrinated with.

And, just wanna add, as has been expressed by others here, I also hope Allan’s wife recovers quickly.  Suffering sucks, no matter *what* you believe.

As an athiest, I’ve always been uncomfortable whenever I hear that somebody is praying for me.  I used to think “No thanks.” I don’t need to be prayed for.  yadda yadda. 

Even after Beau Tochs and ***Dave’s comments about how praying is more for the pray-er and not the pray-ee, I still find myself uncomfortable with the thought. 

Any suggestions?

I get the same big blank block between “no problem with blasphemy” and the SEB link and I am on high speed at the office, just for interest sake.
I hope that things go well for Allan also.  my 13 yr old daughter has Hodgkins.  Diagnosed as stage 4 about 6 weeks ago they had her in Chemotherapy in 6 days, nasty stuff. 
My father is a born again “True Believer” and I humour him regarding prayer etc. simply because being atagonistic doesn’t help. 
I have sat through the meetings and spoken with the oncolgy team.  I am confident my daughter has a competant team of profesionals doing the best they can.  What more can one ask.
A positive outlook is very important to the success of a patient in these cases.  my frustration comes from the “blind faith” some family memebers have the “GOD” will make it right.  Instead I hae done my research, asked the important questions and explained to my daughter straight out with no B.S. what the deal is and the chances are.  I still allow the rest of the family to provide her with their propaganda someday she must decide for herself.
It comes down to are you a half full or half empty glass person in the end I think.  If Mr.Death were around he’d probably attest I am an eternal optimist.

I forgot to mention that I also hope Allan’s wife, and Lordklegg’s daughter both come through things ok.  You are both in my thoughts.

Lordklegg, I am an eternal optimist as well.  I admire and respect how you are handling your daughter and her situation.  When I have kids, I hope to have the courage and honesty with them that you do with yours.

Caught red-handed!
Backing off from posting (temporarily) to let God work, lest my pride start thinking I’m responsible for anyone’s salvation. Pride is insideous.
Re: the blasphemy comment. Dave is correct in pointing out that this blog’s title alone is not blasphemous, despite the word referring to a child born out of wedlock. That was just my heads-up to any sensitive Christians who might get easily offended by some of what they read here. You gotta admit, there’s some spicey language thrown around from time to time here at SEB. Nothing personal. Your choice of words to express yourself are none of my business.
Still praying for Allan (Moses) and his wife, regardless of who would benefit from the prayer (the one doing the praying, the object of the prayer, etc.)
While God does His thing, I’ll be engrossed in the Stanley Cup finals. How good is it when your team makes it that far, and you’ve got tickets to any remaining home games? I’m a lucky man.
Cheers y’all,
Tom

Jeffercine - I used to bristle when people would tell me they’d pray for me. I took it to be rather presumptious. But I learned to appreciate those who were sincere. They think they can help me by going to their god on my behalf --that comes from a good place when it is genuine. On the other hand, “I’ll pray for you” is often said the same way “How are you?” is often asked… where the first is not a genuine statement and the second is not a genuine question.

------

As for the call to prayer, if that were me and my spouse, I would be offended --and not so much for the prayers but for the “Let’s make this a test case to see if we can convert a reason of Atheists!!!” attitude. It just seems like yet another True Believer hijacking a family’s circumstances for their own egotistical gain (There’s far more going on there than just a prayer for someone’s good health.)

------

Lordklegg, Moses, all the best to your families.

jeffercine:  If you don’t want people praying for you, be careful not to share things with those who would consider those things something to pray about.

For me, it’s the more critical things I would take care not to share.  As a believer in the power of the mind, I’d be especially careful about who I’d tell if I had a serious medical condition.  I would not only not tell many religious (as in God) folk, but I wouldn’t be telling those whose god is science.  If an atheist with strong faith in standard medical science heard of a case where a doctor declared that the patient had a terminal illness, and gave statistical percentages regarding survival, that believer would likely feel certain that the patient would die.  After all, the diagnosis came from a scientifically inclined, trained professional.  Too much of this attitude, in my opinion, effects the patient and obscures positive possibilities.  Worse, it can speed the manifestation of the “inevitable” prophecy.

Lordklegg, the fourteen-year-old sister of a girlfriend of mine had Hodgkins.  She went through surgery, radiation, and chemotherapy, and was given only a fifty-fifty chance.  She came through with flying colors, and perfect health, and is still doing great.

This was twenty-five years ago, and things have improved greatly since then.  So while nothing is ever certain, I think, and hope, your daughter will be fine.  Best wishes to your families.

I get the same big blank block between “no problem with blasphemy� and the SEB link and I am on high speed at the office, just for interest sake.

I see it on IE ver. 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519, but not on Firefox, and that is on my DSL at home.  It used to happen all the time, and apparently still does, when you open up a crap browser.

FYI our network administrator, a real smart guy and (inexplicably) an IE guy all the way, has been using IE7 and said he hates it so much ‘it is a danger to [his] spirituality’.  Apparently it has screwed his machine up so bad he is restaging it from the Ghost image.

L4T: “despite the word referring to a child born out of wedlock”

Jeffercine, a friend of mine (a divinity student at the time) once said, “people have their defences because they need them.” They can’t hurt you by praying for you, whatever their motives.  If it makes them feel better, what’s the harm? 

When people tell me they’ll pray for me, I say, “If you want to, it’s OK.” Some of them ask for elaboration, and I tell them I am not a believer.  it’s just a live-and-let-live thing for me.

If they start leaving tracts on my office chair, that’s a different matter.  They’ll get a Normal Bob Smith tract on their chair real quick.