Les,

I believe in evolution.  I do not believe in the existence of a god that holds your hair back when you’re puking in the toilet.  I have creationist friends who respect my beliefs and in return I respect their beliefs, no matter how absurd they seem to me because I understand that I can never be 100% certain that my beliefs are true. 

With that said, I find your berating of people that choose not to believe in evolution asinine and hypocritical.  Who is to say that we are somehow intellectually superior to others because of our belief in a particular theory –a theory that, admittedly, we will never be able to prove?  You bash creationists for acting the way you act now -as if your (and my) beliefs are infallible- and they simply are not.

Who is to say that we are somehow intellectually superior to others because of our belief in a particular theory –a theory that, admittedly, we will never be able to prove?

We’re calling a spade a spade. Our theory is backed by countless empirical studies; creationist explanations are based on ancient myths that have not scientifically stood the test of time. I also take issue with your claim that evolution can never be “proven.” It is not the domain of science to “prove” anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Panzerr, you sound like you have a fair bit of empathy with your creatinist friends; sure you’re not doing a Pascal’s Wager job here? Are you sure you’re not leaning just a little too far into the Invisible Sky Chappie chasm of impossible and improbable delusions.

True Believers™ talking to god remind me of when I speak, rarely out loud, to my mother who answers me EVERY time with the right voice and intonations and ALWAYS the correct advice - she’s been dead for over ten years.
Of course, I know I’m slightly delusional in confessing this out loudly but I know I’m a little bit crazy and I admit it.

Last week at the psychiatrist’s I mentioned that if I came to him saying I had an invisible friend who recorded everything I thought, said and did, talked to him endlessly with him responding, he, my psychiatrist, would have me in hospital quick-smart.
But, if I said my invisible friend was GOD he’d smile and say that’s alright. In fact the psychotic delusion of believing and worshipping this invisible being is the only, I’ll repeat that, IS THE ONLY delusion supported by laws in most of the Western World including tax breaks.
Now that, my friend, is FUCKING insane, don’t you think?

Panzerr, it’s commendable you respect your friends. That is not the same as respecting someone’s belief.  Evolutionary theory is glued, screwed, and tattooed - it is in the same class as gravitational theory and germ theory and isn’t going anywhere. If someone chooses to believe an ancient legend instead, fine - all of us are a bit weird in some ways.  But people who insist on teaching creationism to children in public schools at public expense want to undermine the secular basis of our society.  To that, and to them, I owe no respect.

Proof is a mathematical concept.  It has no place in science, which is an epistemology of explanatory theories.  Not all theories are created equal (pun intended).  Some are well-established, though scientists wrangle over the details.  Others are new, still teething so to speak. May or may not make it to adulthood.  String theory (which I do not pretend to grasp even in its fundamentals) is an example.

Jane –Empirical evidence supports evolution and I don’t by any means refute it, I’m just saying that we could be wrong.  For all we know we are fish in a bowl in someone’s laboratory.

John -if I were pulling a Pascal’s Wager I would have been baptized fourteen months ago when I first stepped foot in Iraq.  I’ve been faced with my own death and the death of my friends countless times since and I am yet to crawl off to the chapel looking for comfort and understanding of the chaotic world in the hands of a god.  I’ll admit, I’ve thought of approaching the Chaplain, but not for religious reasons.  I’ve thought of speaking with him because I, like many of my brothers, have developed “a touch of the PTSD” from the fucked up things I’ve seen.

As much as I don’t believe in a god I won’t completely rule out the fact that it could, in some way be possible that a god of sorts exists.  I’m simply saying that I could be wrong.  The thing that sets me apart from most creationists I know is that I do reserve that fallibility. 

In fact the psychotic delusion of believing and worshipping this invisible being is the only, I’ll repeat that, IS THE ONLY delusion supported by laws in most of the Western World including tax breaks. Now that, my friend, is FUCKING insane, don’t you think

Insane, no.  Curious, yes.  What does that say about human beings?  That we are inherently weak?  That we need to think the world is a shiny, happy place where things happen for a reason?  The fact is religion is the crutch the masses lean on to keep them going day after day.  If that keeps the human race going, deluded as it may be, so be it until a alternative mind medication comes along.

I’ve lived my life in search of absolute truths.  I’ve tried to be true to myself in all that I do.  Being human, this is difficult but I try.  And if there is one thing that I’ve learned it is that knowing the truth is not necessarily inherently good as one may be led to believe.

if there is one thing that I’ve learned it is that knowing the truth is not necessarily inherently good as one may be led to believe.

If you mean “some truths are rather unpleasant to know” you’re quite right.  As Garrison Keillor says, sometimes you have to “take the bull by the horns, look reality in the face, and deny it!”

Religious people often find the idea of “no god” rather frightening.  It comforts them to think someone’s holding their hair back while they puke in the toilet.  As a friend of mine once said; “people have their defenses because they need them.”

This is a separate comment because it deserves separate mention:

I’ve been faced with my own death and the death of my friends countless times since and I am yet to crawl off to the chapel looking for comfort and understanding of the chaotic world in the hands of a god.  I’ll admit, I’ve thought of approaching the Chaplain, but not for religious reasons.  I’ve thought of speaking with him because I, like many of my brothers, have developed “a touch of the PTSD” from the fucked up things I’ve seen.

Aside from whatever else we’re discussing, I can’t imagine what it’s like there but I hope you return home safe, panzerr.

“some truths are rather unpleasant to know”

Yessir

Religious people often find the idea of “no god” rather frightening.  It comforts them to think someone’s holding their hair back while they puke in the toilet.

Absolutely.  Someone asked me once how I could go every day with the belief that there is no meaning to life and that when I die I will simply cease to exist.  Simple.  There are two things I lean on when the shit hits the fan and I find that I can’t suck it up alone:  friends and family.

Panzerr writes…

With that said, I find your berating of people that choose not to believe in evolution asinine and hypocritical.  Who is to say that we are somehow intellectually superior to others because of our belief in a particular theory –a theory that, admittedly, we will never be able to prove?  You bash creationists for acting the way you act now -as if your (and my) beliefs are infallible- and they simply are not.

You’re quite correct that there’s no way to prove any theory 100% correct and it’s entirely possible I could be wrong on the existence of God(s), but the fact that we could be wrong doesn’t mean any opposing viewpoints are equally as valid. It’s entirely possible I’m wrong about the existence of Invisible Pink Unicorns that start wildfires with their horns, but until there’s damn good reason to believe in them then it’s an idiotic explanation to put forward when a wildfire breaks out. Expressing disbelief in something that is well established because it conflicts with your ideology is just plain old stupid. Things like the Flat Earthers, people who still insist that the world is flat despite all the evidence to the contrary, are willfully being idiots. 

The difference between me and creationist is quite clear: My point of view has tons of scientific peer-reviewed evidence backing it up while the creationists have a really old book as evidence for their claims. They insist on ignoring all of the well documented evidence in support of Evolution. That makes them, in my view, idiots. There’s nothing asinine or hypocritical about it.

As an aside, here’s hoping you return to us from Iraq in as good a shape as possible.

I never got the agnostic view. I just don’t see how the argument that we will never know can work. It sounds good at first, but it lacks merit in a few ways. While it is true, that we don’t have all the answers to the creation of the universe, you can’t say we will never know what they are. That argument doesn’t work for anything but “god” (by god I mean a “god” that gives a rats ass). That is unless you wan to go with a possible Deistic view. I mean no disrespect, but I see it as a suspending of logic for a claim that has no basis. If it is possible there was a “god”. It is equally possible that J.R. “Bob” Dobbs was the best dill bit salesman ever and smokes “frop” to open his third nostrill.
Anyhow, you take care of your boys, and may you not waste ammo on camels in a dust storm.

I ... have developed “a touch of the PTSD” from the fucked up things I’ve seen.

I recognise the understatement … now.
For too may years I was in that river in Egypt – in denial.
Up until about ten even twenty years ago I woulda powered out of such feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt, compartmentalising each and every memory and feeling.
Now, of course, I’m much more willing and honest to confront my fears and demons.
I know it’s a delicate balance in which you find yourself.
On the one hand you’re mortal and in a war-zone even though it’s called an occupation. Big time shit is happening that no man should have to experience; the depths of fear and frustration is an abyss you’re thrown back into on waking if you were able to sleep.
On the other hand there’s the desire to survive even though there’s a part of you saying you don’t have the right to survive; another is saying you won’t survive.
This is the endless battle that takes place in every soldier’s mind: The F.E.A.R. (= Future Events Appearing Real) comes up against Survivors’ Guilt comes up against Please keep me safe till morning/another day/another month/till I get to the safety of home.
And all the while you have a population at home and the rest of the world, who you don’t think supports you.
Be assured they do support you, you the soldier. You’re every mother’s son; you’re every father’s boy. Honest people in the safety of their beds know this.
Your real enemy are the cheats, liars, conmen and chest-beaters playing soldiers with real soldiers – most of the chickenhawks are in your government, your corporations, your media; they’re becoming filthy rich from the blood of your fallen comrades.
Keep your head down Panzeer; don’t take unnecessary risks and eat your vegetables.

I never got the agnostic view. I just don’t see how the argument that we will never know can work.

I can see one way to make agnosticism work:

Every sufficiently advanced being is indistinguishable from god.

Not quite what Huxley had in mind, though.

With that said, I find your berating of people that choose not to believe in evolution asinine and hypocritical.

Emphasis added and right back at them.

If you are intellectually challenged and can’t grasp the ToE, fine. Making a choice to reject it, asinine.

For too may years I was in that river in Egypt – in denial.

And this can make you fall into Parisian rivers.

Not to be a nitpicker…

For instance if you decide you are going to poll 1 in every 10 houses (which is what an official government mini census does), a number between 2 and 0 is randomly (true random) produced, and all houses ending in that number polled (4, 14, 24 etc).

A common misconception of statistics.  This is not a random sample for a survey.  It is a systematic sample. Systematic is not random because not everyone has an equal chance of being selected.  You only have an equal chance of being selected if you are part of every n’th group.

A true random sample is where everyone has an equal chance of being selected.  Most common way of doing this is listing all those in the population in Excel.  Then take a random number generator and generate random numbers used for selections to make up your sample.  If you have 100 entries in Excel you might have the random number generator give you ten numbers between 1-100.  That gives you a sample of 10% of the pop truly random.

This makes systematic sampling functionally similar to simple random sampling.

Looks like a duck…

Seriously, while the interval may be fixed, those sampled will indeed be random for all intents and purposes, because there is no way to predict what you will get. 

What I actually met by ‘True Random’ is the way the 2-0 is produced not the sample- the number picked must be impossible to predict. Obviously the sample will have a pattern to it.  I believe the way that western governments produce random numbers is by a using a sample of cosmic radiation- the hit counts are used to generate the number.  It is actually difficult to produce a truely random number.  For a discussion about the difficulties with dice go here and watch the thread wander.

And this can make you fall into Parisian rivers.

I knew I’d get it if I let enough time pass - looking at it again this morning I asked my head’s resident know-it-all: WTF was the name of the river in Paris? And he switched the subject and asked if I was insane.
Fuck ‘im.

If I have a problem I let my mental tuning knob wander, and wait for a pattern from the static.  Also works for the creative stuff.  Walking is great for this.  It means I have to keep scribbling notes to my self though- and I’ve tried to get into the habit of carrying a note book, but I can’t acquire it.

It means I have to keep scribbling notes to my self though- and I’ve tried to get into the habit of carrying a note book, but I can’t acquire it.

I think I’d find it hard to walk and write.
These days I just use the diary in the mobile.
For the last ten plus years when I was working I had one of those small recorders - sometimes I’d leave messages for my self when I was stoned and when I got round to listening I wouldn’t have a clue what I was on about.
It was especially good in the car – just drop some of the key words on tape and Voila! All ideas were recorded.
I went on a fishing trip with three mates in ‘99 - every day they gave me a hundred or two and I paid for everything - every time I spent I recorded it. In the evening or next morning I’d do a reconciliation and we’d start again.
It worked exceptionally well cos there was no need to remember who was gonna pay for the next round.

I knew I’d get it if I let enough time pass

I knew someone would explain it to me if I let enough time pass… thanks, LJ!

No wuckers, mate.

...

I wonder how many mysteries there are in the SEB archives.
I know I’ve let more than a couple slip by.

Oh DoF I am disappointed in you. Basic Geography.  There is a question I have to ask. Please don’t be offended but I need you to come out of the closet.

Did you knowledge of geography come from the US public school system.

...is hiding behind the hairy arsed Digger until the yanks have calmed down. Please leave a message after the beep.

Beep.

I knew the name of the river, but didn’t make the phoenetic association.  Should have sounded it out.