Well, you could always move to New York, a state known for high taxes, and the weather isn’t any worse than Michigan’s. We definitely get plenty of snow and cold, though so far this year we’ve had a noticeable lack.

The job market in the Rochester area seems to be turning around, but that might just be my misconception about having a job at the moment, I’m not really basing it off any actual numbers. I seriously considered moving to someplace warmer where the job market was a bit more...optimistic a few years ago, but I’m content where I am for now.

Anyway, not sure about the total numbers, but with NY having the third highest population, I’d guess we might actually have more people leaving than Michigan, just not a higher percentage.

OK, that’s my incoherent two cents.  Sorry, haven’t gotten too much sleep lately.

I realize it’s a major character flaw that I actually like Michigan.

I know it was a joke but why is there anything wrong with liking where you live as long as it’s not killing you or retarding your job prospects? 

Well if you move to central Illinois, the economy is pretty good here.  But our governor is crooked, as was his predecessor, and probably his successor.  It seems to be our specialty.

Well, given a choice, California has a fair amount to recommend it.

Though I prefer Colorado these days.  Although the weather has been a lot more Michigan-like this season.

If you go for North Carolina, make sure you do the Research Triangle area (which Jesse Helms infamously suggested ought to be fenced off as a state zoo).

I know you’re not a fan of Texas per se, but given your computer skills and the thriving computer industry in the Dallas-Ft. Worth, Houston, and Austin areas as well as low taxes and cost of living, its really not such a bad idea. Then again, getting down here might be a bit of a pain in the ass.

I really am sorry that you are out of work Les (I have been there myself recently and it isn’t any fun), you might (that is if you will consider me a good resource) think about moving to Illinois and trying the tech job market near Chicago. As far as I can tell, you stand a pretty good chance of finding good paying work around there. Trouble will be finding a place to stay while getting work. Do you have any relatives that you know currently live close to the Chicago area?

Meanwhile, you might look into http://www.sentinel.com (an IT company that handles many other companies’ IT outsource - but locally, not from India), they are reasonably good.

Here in Saskatchewan we also have a problem with large numbers of people leaving instead of large numbers of people coming.  The economic juggernaut of Alberta right next door draws in job seekers like a magnetic sponge.

It’s not exactly the Great Migration nor the Great Dustbowl.  Let’s keep things in perspective.

If you haven’t yet I say look into the education sector.  Coming from experience they are fantastic jobs.

Also my friend who works in IT recently came back from Canada and said there are a lot of jobs in IT there.  All he could talk about when he came back was how there are a lot of jobs in the area, nice people, and great atmosphere to live and work in.

If you decide to jump ship I say try Indiana or Chicago, both are reasonably close and may have some good jobs.  Canada would probably be a stretch, but sounds like it has some opportunity.

I’m from MI, moved to California about 3 years ago. Now that I have a wife, we want to move back, but it seems totally out of the question.
Most of my family is still there, getting poorer very quickly, however I do hear that some cities still show good growth.
Ann Arbor and Lansing basically.

I miss the place, even the freakin’ cold, but I’m not setting foot in that state without a job first.

Well if you move to central Illinois, the economy is pretty good here.  But our governor is crooked, as was his predecessor, and probably his successor.  It seems to be our specialty.

Yes, seems the only states that can possibly compete with us for statewide political corruption are New Jersey and Louisiana.

I know my buddies in IT are getting jobs as fast as they can grad out here in BC (Western Canada).  They can’t find qualified hardware, software, and networking types to meet demand right now.
On my campus (University of Victoria) the top 150 grads of computer sciences, irrespective of grades or specialization, are offered jobs sight unseen by lots of companies based out of Vancouver and Seattle.

Don’t have a clue if those are decent jobs though…

I like Michigan just fine (only been here 3 years, imported from Maryland) but I have a stable job, so I don’t have to deal with the market at the moment. As for the future, since I hope to make a living off my writing some day, where I’m living has almost no impact on that goal.

As an aside, Ireland has a great job market in the IT field and I’ve heard it’s easy to get well off very quickly there.

As a Californian, I wish we had an exodus of people right now. Although, it is nice being a business owner and not having to look for a job. Why don’t you simply invent something that we all need Les?

To all those fleeing Michigan in search of jobs: please leave your liberal politics behind when you move somewhere else.  You’ve already ruined my home state, no need to ruin other states as well.

Take a look at the raw data for this study, and one thing becomes blindingly obvious: People are leaving blue states and moving to places where conservative values and low taxes have created jobs.

Ten minutes with Excel and a map of the Bush-Kerry election results established these facts:

Top 15 states people are moving TO: 14 red, 1 blue—93% Republican
Top 15 states people are moving FROM: 4 red, 11 blue—73% Democrat

All 29 states with NET INFLOW: 24 red, 5 blue—83% Republican
All 19 states with NET OUTFLOW: 6 red, 13 blue—68% Democrat

Heck, take a look at the some of the top states where people are moving to find jobs and prosperity: North Carolina, South Carolina, Nevada, Idaho, New Mexico, Alabama, Utah, Tennessee, Arizona, Montana, Texas.

It reads like the phone book of Hillary’s Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.

So if anyone is thinking about fleeing the ruined, jobless economies of the blue states to live the good life in a red state, please check your socialist politics at the door on the way out.  If liberal policies actually worked you wouldn’t have to move across the country to find a job, right?

When you get to your new home state, do the decent thing by joining a church and voting for conservatives.  Your kids will thank you, and what’s more you won’t have to support them because they’ll have jobs.

tim gueguen: Here in Saskatchewan we also have a problem with large numbers of people leaving instead of large numbers of people coming.  The economic juggernaut of Alberta right next door draws in job seekers like a magnetic sponge.

Huh, what an amazing coincidence.  Alberta is “an economic juggernaut drawing in job seekers like a magnet”—and it’s also by far the most conservative province in Canada.  Go figure.

(For those not familiar with Canadian politics or geography, Alberta is the only Canadian province lumped in with “Jesusland” in that infamous 2004 electoral map)

Off topic: Les, I hope you have a new site theme soon.  Your old site was pretty good-looking; this temporary theme is as boring and functional as my car.

Florida isn’t bad at all, if you don’t live in a large metropolitan tourist area.  Oh, and it helps if you like really hot weather, and don’t mind being eaten alive by fire ants. 

Seriously, I love Florida.  I would suggest you check out the areas you’re considering very carefully, though.  For example, there are some very nice ‘burbs near Jacksonville, but you probably don’t want to live in Jacksonville proper.  The public schools in the suburbs of Jax (specifically in Clay County) were actually very good when my son was attending there.  That’s a big consideration also.

Other big Florida pluses include no state income tax, and homestead exemption.  The homestead exemption alone is worth moving to Florida, in my personal opinion.

If you’re accustomed to a more “country” lifestyle, there are areas of central Florida to fulfill that desire also.  It’s a very diverse state, and the residents there are very receptive to transplants from other states.

While I’ve little to say to contradict your regards on American politics, Daryl, Alberta’s also a commercial juggernaut as well as an oil baron. Taxes or not, the growth is there and the oil demand drives it. We have succeeded in reducing taxes province-wide, but that is money that has simply found other inlets. Cost of living in many parts of Alberta is extremely expensive compared to Saskatchewan - up to 2000 a month for a basement and bedroom vs 200 for (Langdon?), a 20 minute drive from Saskatoon.

As far as who’s in office this semester, and the idea that their politics is responsible, that’s down to the actions of individual governors and the lands they inherit from their predecessors (including the policies from the Feds that impact their current socioeconomic standing). You will not see the effects of government immediately either (I expect a trained labor shortage in a decade or so - I’m banking my education on that over $70K to live up north doing oil).

Western Canada has an extremely strong demand for tech workers - but moving to Alberta or BC from Michigan is asking a lot.

The “last person to leave please turn off the lights” theme is very popular when discussing blue states. From an article in the Wall Street Journal:

According to a report out this month from the U.S. Census Bureau, an astounding 2,204,500 Californians threw in the towel from 1995 to 2000 and highballed it out of the “Golden State.” The state’s net migration figure for the period is minus-755,536, and would be worse if Latin American immigrants didn’t still drop in for a look.

The Census figures make those of us staying in the “Empire State” look like the nation’s biggest saps: Some 1,600,725 shrewd subjects of Albany’s empire saw in the late 1990s that the pols were blowing the revenue surge out the window and escaped ahead of the recent tax hikes passed to close the inevitable deficit. Because so many former New Yorkers understood the meaning of present-discounted non-value, the state took first place in net migration loss: minus-874,248.

The ACCRA cost-of-living index, run out of George Mason University, provides another telling comparison. These are fourth-quarter 2002 numbers with 100.0 as the U.S. average.

Blues: Los Angeles, 137.8; San Francisco, 182.3; Boston, 135.5; and always-frightening New York (Manhattan), 216.2.

Reds: Phoenix, 95.1; Tampa, 90.5; Atlanta, 98.1; Houston, 90.8. There are exceptions; you can live like an average American and still be a Democrat by living in Pittsburgh, at 1.5 below the national average.

Will the last person leaving the blue states please turn out the lights.

Blue-State Pols Are Emptying Their Own States

Daryl you make one big mistake with your statement.  How a state votes for federal elections has nothing to do with the economy of the state. 

While the state majority may vote Democrat, they could also have a republican state government.  And the state government runs the state and is ultimately in charge of the economy of that state.

And I know this might surprise you, but but federal taxes have a smaller impact on a state’s economy than the state’s state tax does.

North Carolina: Dem gov
New Mexico: Dem gov
Tennessee: Dem gov
Arizona: Dem gov
Montana: Dem gov

With Arizona I can tell you that it is the number one state for retirees (and has been for quite some time), which probably explains why it has a high influx of people.

But beyond this there are many more things at play here.  And your simple minded brain and explanation do not come close to explaining this issue.  My explanation does not come close to explaining why the people are migrating to those states.  Much more data and studies need to be collected to make the conclusive statement you made.

On the contrary, Webs, the presidential vote is an excellent barometer of a state’s social values.  It is pointless to compare governors from one state to another.

Plenty of deep-south Democrats are pro-life, pro-family conservatives.  Think Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who spoke at the 2004 Republican convention which nominated Bush for a second term.

And plenty of Republicans where I live (Massachusetts) are RINOs (Republican In Name Only).  Mitt Romney, the Republican governor for the past decade or so, supported legal infanticide until he decided he wanted to run for president.  Then he suddenly “discovered” the universal value of human life.  Go figure.

If you want to measure how conservative or liberal a state is, you have to measure the same thing in all 50 states.  The presidential vote allows us to do just that—or do you know a lot of liberals who voted for George W. Bush?

George Bush is the same pro-life, bloated-government social conservative in all 50 states.

John Kerry is the same anti-family, bloated-government surrender monkey in all 50 states.

That means you can take the pulse of a state’s citizens by looking at how they choose between these two options.  You’re comparing the same choice in every state.

Webs: Much more data and studies need to be collected to make the conclusive statement you made.

The study has been done and the results are in.  People have voted with their feet.  Blue states, with their high taxes, big labor unions and higher minimum wages are strangling their own job market.  Red states are where the jobs are.

Look at the city I was born in.  Detroit’s population peaked at 1.85 million.  Now it’s less than half that.  Why would that be?  Maybe because people who live or work in Detroit have to pay three, yes three income taxes, plus property tax, plus sales tax?

Bay Area Voting research ranked the politics of the largest 236 cities in this country, and Detroit was the most liberal.  Out of 236.  You can read the study here.

The rankings are an embarrassing indictment of how liberal politics destroy an economy: of the 25 most liberal cities in the country, 23 are in states people are leaving forever.

Meanwhile, the country’s most conservative cities are a who’s-who list of places people go to find jobs.  Provo, Utah tops the list.  Working our way down we find: Texas, Texas, Florida, Texas, Colorado, Arizona..

The message is absolutely clear.  Liberal states are bleeding citizens because there aren’t any jobs and the cost of living is high.  Conservative values lead to low taxes and a strong work ethic.

Webs, you make an interesting point, but a closer examination does not back it up. The Pacific Research Institute measures the economic freedom of states using such criteria as taxes, amount of government regulations, and social welfare spending. Their findings are that red states are much more economically free than blue states.

The U.S. Economic Freedom Index shows that people are fleeing less economically free states to live in freer states. The net domestic migration rate was up 19 people per 1,000 for the 20 freest states but down a dismal 16 people per 1,000 for the 20 least-free states. New York and California experienced the largest net loss of domestic residents during 2003-04. They also have the least economic freedom. The study ranked states based on how friendly or unfriendly their state government policies are toward free enterprise and consumer choice.

...

In November, 23 of the 25 freest states voted for Bush. In stark contrast, 17 of the 25 least-free states voted for Kerry. In the long term, the differences in economic freedom will magnify this partisan divide as people continue the move to freer states and take their Electoral College votes with them.

link

More general info on economic freedom

Wow both of you did an incredibly good job of not reading what I said.

Justin: no need to say the same thing Daryl said.  As I have shown of some of the states that Daryl listed that were states where people are moving to, half have a Dem govenor.  As I already stated the Governor has more power to affect his state’s economy then the president does.  The movement of the people to these states does not necessarily have anything to with how people voted in a presidential election.

Stats don’t lie, people do… There is a difference between causation and correlation.  I don’t have the time to school you in states and causation and causality, but if you would like I might have some time later tonight.

Daryl: you need to read what I stated cause you entirely missed my point.  And as I stated to Justin you also apparantly do not know the difference between causality and correlation.

Justin: no need to say the same thing Daryl said.  As I have shown of some of the states that Daryl listed that were states where people are moving to, half have a Dem govenor.  As I already stated the Governor has more power to affect his state’s economy then the president does.  The movement of the people to these states does not necessarily have anything to with how people voted in a presidential election.

There is a reason why I discussed the issue in terms of economic freedom. Red states - based upon the Presidential election in 2004 - have more economic freedom than blue states. Unless you are prepared to argue that low taxes, a relatively unregulated economy, and low amounts of social welfare spending are liberal positions, Daryl’s point stands: the liberal policies of blue states are harming their own economies.

Just saying something to de-lurk myself!! I come by here just about every day, even have you on my blog roll. I enjoy SEB, love it. Just letting you know I’m one of the many that lurk too much, I will try and get myself motivated to comment more often. I know what it’s like to have a lack of comments, I get X amount of hits on my own web page but seldom do I get comments.

Unless you are prepared to argue that low taxes, a relatively unregulated economy, and low amounts of social welfare spending are liberal positions

No need to argue this point as you have no way of proving that these ideals are what caused the people to move to those states. 

And I have also shown how half of the states Daryl listed have a Democratic governor, so I guess Democrats are just as good at drawing people to their states… or all you have shown is a correlation and there are in fact other reasons in play here that you choose to dismiss… hmm… which one could it be…

Daryl’s point stands: the liberal policies of blue states are harming their own economies.

Actually his point doesn’t stand at all.  Again you are using data that shows a correlation to try to prove causation.  All you have done is shown there is a positive correlation of where people are moving to and how those states voted in 2004.  There is no causation with what you have.  It is a very common mistake people make with statistics.