See, if any group of apparent �christians� do not believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins, and then rose the third day, then there is not use in what they are doing.

Last time I checked, mormons and catholics agree with you on that one.

The bible is clear about all men being created equal.

Well seeing as god has a “chosen people” (and yes, that term is used explicitly in the bible), he doesn’t seem to think that way.

Evolution pretty much forces you to be racist.

Unfortunately the facts don’t agree with you, evolution (it is merely a scientific principle)doesn’t force anyone to be anything. Religion does a good job of that though.

You keep using the antagonistic christian definition of evolution, rather than the scientific one. Evolution isn’t an ideology, any more than gravity or relativity, and doesn’t draw any moral conclusions (in stark contrast to religion).

How the fuck does evolution force one to be racist?! I’m really interested in hearing how that works. What a ridiculous idea!

Thanks Brandi, and it�s beginning to seem that peer pressure is often to blame for close calls with Christianity.

I just came off a 100+ post argument on another board…I was arguing that it isn’t right to teach religion to children (any revealved religion). Mainly because of their inability to put up an intellectual fight. I argued it took away some of their own freedom to choose later. All the parents got up im arms and said their children “could do anything they wanted when they grew up”. Uh, yeah…not without some emotional turmoil that wouldn’t be necessary if you hadn’t brainwashed them early.

And then these brainwashed kids go out and “kidnap” other victims…

I never did get a good answer on why it wasn’t OK to wait until they were old enough to consider these things with a fully functional adult mind. I think the answer is obvious, but of course I couldn’t get anyone to say it…it’s because far fewer would join up (possibly their very own children [gasp]) later in life, gotta get ‘em while they’re still too young and malleable to do anything about it. Then when they grow up, hopefully, if all if goes well, they’ll be too indoctrinated to think for themselves.

Of course you know I meant “revealed religion” (not “revealved religion”)

Man, this format of not being able to go back and clean up your post is hard for me. I use that feature heavily on the other places I frequent. Sorry.

Thank you Brandi. Where was that argument, I’d like to read it.

valhalla,
“Last time I checked, mormons and catholics agree with you on that one.“
Then go check again, most of those sects of “Christianity” believe that Christ was a good teacher and great profit, but not the saviour, and they’re still waiting for him today.
About the chosen ones: first of all you assume that you have the ability to judge God on what is fair and what isn’t. If you created a painting and decided to erase part of it, thats your call, it’s not “unfair” to that part of the painting.
Secondly the bible says that Gods will is that none should perish. Throughout the Gospels thousands of gentiles were saved, Christs death was for everyone not for jews only. Otherwise, why am I believing? I’m not a jew.

(from the evolution perspective)
Les, as far as we know (from science) is that there are different “races” of people today, black, white, asian etc…  We know that all of us, and monkeys and whatnot, had a “common ancestor” millions of years ago. So us “wise wise humans” branched off, and monkeys branched off, and now it’s today. So all these races today would have to be sub-branches off of the main human branch. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that to believe that we are all equal that would mean that every sub-branch would have had to perfectly evolve all at the same rate for all these thousands of years.
Hey, you can believe what you want, but if I was an evolutionist, I would certainly be racist, look what it professes!
Darwin was racist, Hitler was a strong believer in evolution and was obviously racist, they all believe that their race has evolved a little further than the rest. Which would make sense if evolution were true.
If you give me an argument like “some of the smartest people are black, asian…etc” then I agree with you, because we ARE as the bible says, CREATED EQUAL.

Then go check again, most of those sects of �Christianity� believe that Christ was a good teacher and great profit, but not the saviour, and they�re still waiting for him today.

Thank you for proving you have no clue. Catholics and mormons ABSOLUTELY believe that, you are the one that needs to recheck the facts.

...every sub-branch would have had to perfectly evolve all at the same rate

Nice try, but you still don’t get it. The term evolved as used in the theory of evolution, does not mean more advanced, but actually means more adapted. As all of our ancestors came from africa, other races have actually lost features (such as pigmentation) that weren’t needed in the new environment they were adpating to. But if you keep misinterpretting science, I may have to conceed some humans aren’t as intellectually evolved as others.

...because we ARE as the bible says, CREATED EQUAL.

Try reading the bible once, nowhere in it is the phrase “created equal”.

Vermin, I would love nothing more than to share it with you. But I’m afraid some details might compromise the anonymity of me or some of the others in the conversation.

It looks like Les gets his share of whackos, and I don’t really want them hunting me or anyone else down, if you know what I mean?

Maybe I’ll grab it and clean it up a bit, and post it somewhere else…would that work for you?

Sounds good.  For the record I am a Wacko-just not a dangerous one.

(from the evolution perspective)
Les, as far as we know (from science) is that there are different �races� of people today, black, white, asian etc�  We know that all of us, and monkeys and whatnot, had a �common ancestor� millions of years ago. So us �wise wise humans� branched off, and monkeys branched off, and now it�s today. So all these races today would have to be sub-branches off of the main human branch. So I guess what I�m trying to say is that to believe that we are all equal that would mean that every sub-branch would have had to perfectly evolve all at the same rate for all these thousands of years.
Hey, you can believe what you want, but if I was an evolutionist, I would certainly be racist, look what it professes!
Darwin was racist, Hitler was a strong believer in evolution and was obviously racist, they all believe that their race has evolved a little further than the rest. Which would make sense if evolution were true.
If you give me an argument like �some of the smartest people are black, asian�etc� then I agree with you, because we ARE as the bible says, CREATED EQUAL.

I can see where you might draw that conclusion. But skin color and physical attributes are nothing more than adaptations to live in certain climates. Even if one could argue that one race has evolved “further” (and I don’t believe it), that doesn’t support denying any of them their basic human rights.

Evolution would also suggest that each race evolved with different strengths, not better, just different…for their environment.

To say one race evolved “further” implies there is one attribute worth more than all the rest, and that you know what it is, and your race is it. Which is not science, that’s just crazy. That’s making a value judgement out of something completely dependant on environment.

We’re all the same race. Human. And I don’t mean that to sound like a fortune cookie or a Precious Moments. The only differences are adaptations to environment.

Black people have dark skin so they don’t burst into melanoma in the sunny climates. White people have paler skin to absorb more sun in less sunny climates, to therefor process more Vitamin D. I don’t know why Asians have slanty eyes, but I’m sure there’s a reason. American Indians (of which I am 1/4) look startlingly Asian when you think about it. And I’ve heard it’s because of ages-old Asian settlers making their way over to this continent by way of the Bering Land Bridge. Which makes sense.

http://www.hrw.com/science/si-science/biology/evolution/origin/origin.html

If God created everyone equal…why don’t we look pretty much the same?

I am a real Christian.  I believe in Jesus and Jesus loves me.  Can you see my glazed over eyes and the drool from my mouth?  I never went to a formal college but, believe it or not, I am more than qualified to argue about scientific principles such as evolution, the big bang, dinosaurs, etc. because Jesus loves me and has shown me the light.  I will go to Heaven and Jesus loves me.  As long as I believe in him and repent my sins, I will live for eternity with Jesus up in Heaven.  I don’t need to justify anything I say because Jesus loves me.  People who are much more intelligent than me and have actually used the scientific method to expand the base of human knowledge are the pawns of Satan.  Satan uses smart people to further his cause because he thinks he can take over the universe by doing this.  But I am safe because Jesus loves me.  Amen.

Safe from intelligence?

Jesse…AMEN!!!!!!!!
I fully agree with you…you are on the RIGHT track…keep it GOING…ON AND ON AND ON…

Peace,
SALLIE

haha, that was pretty good jesse. Really, i did laugh. I know how I must come off to you guys, and I’m so glad that you show me nothing but your maturity and wisdom. Your teaching me to hold my tounge i’ll tell you that much.
It’s actually quite challenging to try and respond to mockery and ridicule without doing so yourself, you should try that sometime jesse.

Valhalla,
“The term evolved as used in the theory of evolution, does not mean more advanced, but actually means more adapted.“
Then why don’t they say adapted??? I’ve got no problem with adaptation! We can see it in the world today! Salt water crocs, fresh water crocs, black people, white people, yes, I AGREE.
But that is NOT what evolution teaches, it throws macro evolution in with adaptation. Don’t argue against that because you’ll have no base as to where we came from!
Yes, everything you said about humans adapting to their environment all makes sense and is true! That’s why we ARE all equal, God created us.
your argument proposes that macro evolution just mysteriously stopped somewhere, and then adaptation kicked into gear. At least hold true to your belief or “science” as you would put it, and don’t make little bends in it when uncomfortable issues like racism come into play.

Brandi:
“If God created everyone equal�why don�t we look pretty much the same?“
It’s obvious that God likes variety, why would he create different colors, different smells and all kinds of complex little creatures? Don’t you think it would be boring if we all looked the same?
I really don’t know why you asked that? Should I feel compelled to be an athiest now?

Yes, everything you said about humans adapting to their environment all makes sense and is true!

So then you agree that we changed over time to adapt to our environment to become more capable of survival? (just in case you weren’t aware, that is called natural selection, a key element of the theory of evolution)

your argument proposes that macro evolution just mysteriously stopped somewhere, and then adaptation kicked into gear.

You need to learn evolution before you try to debate it any further.

Agreed. It’s clear that DB doesn’t have a decent background in just what the theory of evolution is or what it says. He’s trying to debate from a standpoint that is largely ignorant or composed of what he’s heard Creationists claim the theory is about and that’s part of why he’s coming up with such ridiculous comments such as evolution being the cause of racism. There’s little point in engaging him in any kind of serious discussion until he’s studied up a little and offering informed opinions.

DB, no, you should not feel compelled to be an Atheist necessarily. I’m not an atheist, don’t know if you saw that nugget or not. But you should feel compelled to stop tilting at windmills.

valhalla:
“So then you agree that we changed over time to adapt to our environment to become more capable of survival?“ Yes, natural selection is quality control for it’s kind. Not eventually-morph-to-different-species-control.

Les, you guys do know more about evolution than me, I only wish you’d discuss it instead of giving the all too typical “well DB just doesn’t understand science, thats all”
I’ve been reading those pages you send me, quite interesting. Quite a laugh that it’s like an ammo-refueling station for atheists arguing against creationists “ok, here’s how to discredit this scientist” “heres what you say if the claim this”
It’s quite the site and I’ve been reading it alot but there’s so much.
I’m at where they say “look we found a sea cow with legs and not flippers! It must have evolved! Yes! transitional fossil found!!“
These guys are smart. It’s a different creature!!
where’s all the fossils where there was half fins, half feet? Most of these “transitional creatures wouldn’t have been able to survive. Half fins half feet? It would either be useless on land or useless in the water, either one wouldn’t allow for thousands of years of survival until fins fully formed.

DB, go to the wikipedia entry Valhalla provided and read up. Saying much of anything else to you at this point is useless until you have a more informed background on what the theory of evolution is and isn’t. You’re continuing to make simplistic arguments from an uninformed position.

Quite a laugh that it�s like an ammo-refueling station for atheists arguing against creationists �ok, here�s how to discredit this scientist� �heres what you say if the claim this�

Yep. I’ve never seen a religious or creationist web site like this. Never. Putting things in a tidy Q&A or FAQ format discredits nothing.

And you keep assuming it’s atheists vs. creationists. Not the case.

A good point Brandi. There are plenty of believers who also accept the theory of evolution as being likely if not outright fact. I can name several otherwise seemingly upstanding Christians who also have no problem with the theory of evolution. Some of them read this site.

I just want to expand a bit on Mild Bill’s and malagant’s posts from 5 Sept. (A bit late but I just found this string yesterday.)

The whole flood story is insane to me. The largest wooden vessels ever built were American coal ships in the early 20th century that were just over 300 ft long. These ships were reinforced with iron straps because the expansion of the wood joints could not be adequately sealed, unlike with the ark. They actually snaked through the water with the stern and bow oscillating in different directions! The ships leaked so badly that water had to be pumped out continuously or they would sink. They were only used for coastal shipping�they could never have survived in the deep ocean. A conservative estimate on the length of the ark is 450 ft long!

Nelson’s flagship the HMS Victory was a good bit smaller than MB’s 300+ ft. coal ships. Here are some facts about the Victory. 1). About 6,000 trees went into her construction, roughly 90% being oak. This required about 100 acres of woodland. The timber was laid up for 14 years for seasoning. 2). It took the Chatham Dockyard about four years (keel laying to launching) to build Victory. Some additional time was required to get her properly ballasted. 3). Peak manning during construction was about 250.

The bottom line is that it takes a lot of people many months to build a large wooden ship. Given that, are we to believe that Noah, his three sons and perhaps their wives were able to build the largest wooden ship ever in just seven days—even if they didn’t have to cut the wood? The timeline is just not plausible.

Heck, you could never show me how you could build a boat to hold all the creatures in my local zoo, not to mention every creature on the planet, big and small, 2 by 2�plus food? Who got to clean up after them anyway?

Lenny Flank who maintains the web site Creation “Science” Debunked addresses m’s last question better than I could have.

I have always been interested in how exactly Noah and seven other people managed to keep and care for all these animals for all that time.  Perhaps creationists would like to open up a modern zoo and run it, completely, with a staff of just eight people, to show us it can be done.

A good point Brandi. There are plenty of believers who also accept the theory of evolution as being likely if not outright fact. I can name several otherwise seemingly upstanding Christians who also have no problem with the theory of evolution. Some of them read this site.

Right. I know plenty, too. My husband included. He’s an engineer, he can’t ignore reason, it’s hardcoded in his brain to try to be logical.

I certainly wouldn’t call myself a “believer”, but not quite Atheist either. In the end game, I suppose I feel it doesn’t matter what you believe, that it carries no eternal ramifications, so long as you seek the truth with an open and logical mind. Labeling my religious/universal view is about as hard as labeling my political views, until they come out with “None of the Above”.

But for ease of discussion, I’m probably closest to Deist. Jefferson and Einstein…their Kung Fu is strong.

I take slight exception to some of the statements made on the page regarding natural selection and evolution.  I think it is an urban legend that individuals adapt to their environments.  Black people are not black because they lived in sunny areas�they are black, therefore have better fitness to survive in sunny areas!

I recall in Biology 101 last year, the prof talked about a species of animal that was blind and lived in total darkness.  I initially thought the creature became blind because it lived in darkness, but the prof said that�s not the case.  The animal possibly found it had a better survival rate (safe from sighted predators) living in the dark.  I was under the impression that the physical environment does not produce heritable traits.  Does anyone know differently?

I think assigning mutations to the environment�s affect on individuals is not valid evolutionary theory.  In my understanding (and please show where I�m wrong) evolution is the change in populations of species, not changes in individuals caused by the environment.

To sum up�blacks thrive in sunny areas because they are black�they don�t become black because of the sun.  Blind animals thrive better in environments where they are not threatened by sighted predators�they don�t become blind because they live in the dark.