Wow, I have been a lurker for some time and stumbled across this thread just today. I believe it is pretty obvious that Common Sense was and remains Organized religions own worst enemy.

I am always amazed at the level of pure ignorance that so many are willing, absolutely willing to subject themselves too.

It is just not concievably possible that anyone can use Hovind as a defence for anything. He is a well known and documented fraud… he constantly contradicts himself and he’s not even a real PHD. This isn’t opinion… his is a name that people wandering the internet come across… they are either swayed or appalled by his arguments, but either way everyone affected by him should be motivated to do there own research on the guy. It’s easy, this is the internet, do a google search… there is no friggin’ excuse. Kent Hovind is a fraud people, its just a fact. Its a sad fact, but its true… even if i were a believer in this garbage, I would avoid at all costs… ALL COSTS the mentioning of his name in the support of my ideas. It makes you look foolish.

It remains an incredibly sad state of human affairs that we are so willing to let go our common sense to let others rule our lives for us.

I side with Les throughout this whole ridiculous argument not because he is a fellow atheist, but because he is so obviously travelling a well researched, a well educated and a very well grounded in common sense path. He uses real logic, backs up his arguments with links to accredited research and evidence. he doesn’t feel the need to make anything up, and I see him sitting at home decidedly relaxed, because he absolutely has nothing to lose.

When you apply simple critical thinking methods to anything you read or view you end up pretty much where he is. Try twisting his words, you can’t its all completely logical and backed up with actual evidence. And where there is none he still states that it is just opinion.

I am one of those atheists that have many christian friends, some atheists, girlfriends an agnostic… a jew, a born again, 2 budhists… etc. Live and let live.

I may just tend to gravitate to these sorts of people, but at least my friends admit that they have no evidence to back anything up… its just what they believe, have faith in or whatever happens to fit them best. They readily admit that there is none. They can’t argue with me because I have everything going for my argument… Atheism is actually quite impenetrable… from a logics standpoint.

Please proove me wrong, somebody… anybody. That is really all any atheist wants. I want a GOD. That would be the coolest friggin thing in the world. Show me the way big daddy in the sky… but he won’t, because he is’t there. Anyone hanging onto there christianity just needs read the EPIC OF GILGAMESH. And for those in the know, you know why. It’s pure evidence of the raping of other religions that christianity has done. It still facinates me to this day at how little people are aware of how much of the christian religion is actually a meshing of Pagan and ancient Mythological beliefs.

Can’t we all just agree to disagree?

P, P, P peace.

Thanks for the response Jesse.  So what do you think about the question that was proposed?

Patrick

Patrick, my lovely trollop
Someday, my boy, you will realize the folly of your ways.  Too bad it will be when you are six feet under and the worms are licking your bones.  If you believe Kent Hovind and read his Dr. Dino website, Satan is riding around the skies in his UFO because god has denied him the privilege of settling down and creating a family.  Poor, poor Lucifer!  I wonder who would win in a Royal Rumble between Kent Hovind, Anton LaVey, and Aleister Crowley?  Hmmm…....I’m very interested in your answer Patrick.

How did Hovind get involved in this.  I’ve not even mentioned his name in a response.  All I did was simply respond to Mild Bill’s question of, “If the Devil is so smart, how come he doesn�t know he�s not going to win at the end of the book?“  That’s the only question I addressed…my opinion of what I think the answer may be.

Patrick

What really amazes me is that there are so many people out there willing to call Hovind an idiot, quack, fool, or discredit him in any way they can, and yet not one of them will debate him.
I’ve said this probably 3-4 times on this site:
If your that much smarter, more lodgical, whatever, then go prove him wrong!!! infront of every one!!! HE pays for it!
There are so few profs or even anyone who accepts the challenge of debating him, he finances for you to come and debate him!
Dave, your quite secure in saying that atheism is impenetrable, so you should have nothing to worry about, call him up and debate!
Every one makes up excuses why they can’t, or how he’s not worth debating, as if your above his level of thinking. That’s all the more reason to show him up, prove him wrong and tear him down.

Debate with what?

We are all well aware of what it is that Kent Hovind believes… do you honestly think that any debate with him will prove useful at all? He will not change an opinion on something, he has too much invested. It will not serve any useful purpose whatsoever. Why in the hell would I willingly throw myself into a debate when I already know of the idiotic responses that he is going to throw my way.

And again, isn’t one of Les’s new requirements for being taken seriously here that you read through a persons entire post before responding to it? You are using a tool called the internet… it is a wonderful thing indeed. I said that there was absolutely no excuse for anyone coming here and not already knowing the answer to something they ask… I have a suggestion… do a friggin google search for Kent Hovind plus the word “Debate”. it is simply amazing what you will uncover. He has been debated, before. And obviously he has noticed he cannot win and now puts forth a policy of no debates. The guy refuses to debate with anyone, last I checked. He just keeps losing. Don’t believe me? I opened up a new browser because I was curious, did a google search… and what do you know… countless links, try it, I swear it won’t fry a brain cell.

I don’t really eat babies, but I agree with everything “Dave the Atheist” has commented on.
And you know what, I may be atheist, but in a way, I do have faith. I know the sun will rise every morning, I have faith that it will, but I don’t believe some wrathful “worship me, love me, NEED me” god makes the sun rise and set. I also have a lot of faith in humanity, I have to. I have to have faith that when I walk out of my home every day that I’ll be safe, and if I’m not, I count on other people to help me. If I’m held at gun point I’m not going to ask god to help me, I’m going to hope that police officer around the corner responds to that call! What I’m trying to say is, if we all just stopped and concentrated a little more on earthly problems instead of a fantastical after-life, maybe our world wouldn’t be turning to shit right before our eyes.

Am I wrong? I put my URL there, if anyone wants to go to my site, I have a page on why I’m atheist…

Shaye

do a friggin google search for Kent Hovind plus the word �Debate�. it is simply amazing what you will uncover. He has been debated, before. And obviously he has noticed he cannot win and now puts forth a policy of no debates.

You’re absolutely right. I particularly liked his exchange with the New Mexicans for Science and Reason (NMSR) where he refused to participate in a written debate, would only do it “live” for spectacle. I can certainly see his reasoning. It must be very threatening to his position to allow his opponent (and himself) the luxury of time to think and research.

And I really loved this little gem…he fell for a PRANK and tried to pass it off as proof of creation, that man lived with dinosaurs.

The P. T. Barnum “One Born Every Minute” Award goes to “Dr. Dino” himself, creationist speaker Kent Hovind, who on May 7th, 1999, in a packed room in Philadelphia, urged his audience to study convincing new evidence of humans living with dinosaurs. Hovind’s evidence, a web site at http://www.darwindisproved.com/Archive.html *, turned out to be the annual NMSR April Fool’s prank.

*�Site has moved to http://www.nmsr.org/Archive.html . See also http://www.nmsr.org/onyatemn.htm

He took the bait. As if something real of this magnitude could be truly covered up.

Brandi,
Hovind does nothing but travel all year and speaks all over the place. He does’t have time for a long, drawn out email debate. If you think that he avoids written debates because it will allow for his opponent to do research, then you’ve gone and made him look even smarter! As if they will HAVE to do more research when debating him. If he’s as wrong as they all think, then having to do more research shouldn’t be a problem.
Why not have them do all the research they want, and THEN go debate him? He knows that he won’t have to do extra research, he’s already prepared.
Oh and thats real mature that the “NMSR” had to pull a “prank” on Hovind to make him look bad, I mean, thats pathedic, what kind of actual scientists go out and do something like that unless they are SO desperate to make him look bad.

If you atheists heard of some find that without a possible doubt, proves the Bible wrong, or proves that God doesn’t exist, you would jump on it faster than you jumped on evolutio…. oh wait, you did!  Only instead of some petty organization like NMSR doing the prank, it’s the entire government.(they can do alot better of a job apparently, because their objective isn’t to reveal the trick and make you look dumb, it is to keep you convinced and make you look and feel smart. Which you do.)

Hovind does nothing but travel all year and speaks all over the place. He does�t have time for a long, drawn out email debate. If you think that he avoids written debates because it will allow for his opponent to do research, then you�ve gone and made him look even smarter! As if they will HAVE to do more research when debating him. If he�s as wrong as they all think, then having to do more research shouldn�t be a problem.
Why not have them do all the research they want, and THEN go debate him? He knows that he won�t have to do extra research, he�s already prepared.

Hovind doesn’t just travel around doing debates. He travels around trying to push “Intelligent Design” into various school systems. Dave’s right, any simple search on the Net will turn up all sorts of debates Hovind participated in and which he didn’t come close to “decimating” his opponent as you like to think he has. Hovind doesn’t have to do any extra research because he just makes shit up as he goes. Have you actually read some of the crap he puts out? Stuff like:

If you are traveling down the highway at sixty miles an hour, and turn your headlights on, how fast is the light going from your headlights?  Compared to you, it is going at the speed of light.  Compared to someone on the sidewalk it is going at the speed of light plus sixty miles an hour. Source: Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6 - a transcript of Kent Hovind’s early sermons circa 1996

Do you even begin to realize just how fucking ridiculous that statement is? It demonstrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of the physics of light. It’s the sort of statement you’d expect someone who has

in science to make because on the surface it sounds like it makes sense. The man just makes shit up. How about crap like:

See, the Sun puts off a lot of stuff besides light.  It puts off X rays, gamma rays, beta rays - and all them ray boys come down here and they’re pretty hard on your carcass.  How many have ever had an X ray before? [....] Long-term exposure to X rays is dangerous but here we are getting X rayed every day of our life.  And your poor skin feels the full force of the X rays. [....] After about 70 or 80 years, your skin begins to lose the battle and it can’t keep up with the damage being caused.  And your skin begins to wrinkle up. [....]  Well, if you don’t want to get wrinkled [....] carry a lead or concrete umbrella over your head at all times - don’t ever get exposed to X rays. Source: Kent Hovind, circa 1999, Creation Seminar Online Part 2 VI F5

“The Earth’s atmosphere is thick enough that virtually no X-rays are able to penetrate from outer space all the way to the Earth’s surface.  This is good for us but also bad for astronomy ...“ (NASA)

The man hasn’t a fucking clue. I love this next one:

Therefore, there may not be any other stars in the solar system that have planets around them. [Emphasis added] Source: Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6 - a transcript of Kent Hovind’s early sermons circa 1996.

Of COURSE there isn’t you IDIOT! There’s only ONE fucking star in our solar system and that’s the FRIGGIN’ SUN!

The only way Hovind could decimate someone else in debate is by stunning them with the incredible stupidity and ignorance of science he manages to demonstrate on a regular basis by plucking ridiculous claims from his ass. How can you possibly debate with someone who doesn’t even have a small understanding of what he’s arguing about? He provides no basis for his claims other than it’s the best rationalization based on Biblical teachings that he can think up. It’s ridiculous and the main reason that so many people involved in actual scientific research refuse to debate him. Not because his arguments are so good, but because they’re so stupid and clueless that it’s a waste of friggin’ time to begin with. The man is a moron and I fear for any of the students he taught science to for 15 years.

Oh and thats real mature that the �NMSR� had to pull a �prank� on Hovind to make him look bad, I mean, thats pathedic, what kind of actual scientists go out and do something like that unless they are SO desperate to make him look bad.

You’re missing the point. Hovind is so friggin’ clueless and desperate for anything that would support his delusions that he latched onto an obvious hoax only to be embarrassed in the end. NMSR didn’t set up the prank to fool Hovind, they were doing it as an April Fools joke. It’s indicative of Hovind’s claims that there is so little evidence for them that he would jump on anything that would add some credibility to them without checking it out first to see if it was true. Good scientists don’t jump on the first bit of evidence that supports their theories as proof until they’ve checked it out, but then Hovind isn’t close to being a scientist let alone a good one.

If you atheists heard of some find that without a possible doubt, proves the Bible wrong, or proves that God doesn�t exist, you would jump on it faster than you jumped on evolutio�. oh wait, you did! Only instead of some petty organization like NMSR doing the prank, it�s the entire government.(they can do alot better of a job apparently, because their objective isn�t to reveal the trick and make you look dumb, it is to keep you convinced and make you look and feel smart. Which you do.)

Right, secretly the government is run by atheists and we control the science curriculum of all the schools everywhere. We just allowed a loud-mouth Bible thumper like Bush to be elected to throw you guys off the trail. You’re too smart for us DB, you found us out! What will we do now?! Guess it’s time to call out the CIA’s Black Ops team.

Tell me this, what is the greatest expression of love someone can ever do? Jesus did just that on the cross for your children and you.

Okay, here is the crux of my problem with organized Christianity.  You believe that the greatest expression of love is dying for someone??  I cannot fathom such a thing.  I also cannot understand why Christians (in general) focus so much on the death, instead of the teachings of Christ.  Some of his messages are moving, stimulating and still valid to this day.  Unfortunately, I don’t see organized Christianity focusing on those things.  What I see is a death cult, and it scares the piss out of me.

Too often, as evidenced here, people focus on what they (or others) don’t have, want, belive…and point to it as proof of one thing or another.  Someone said that this decaying earth is all we have, as if it was a horror.  Why would you regard something you profess to be God’s creation as a horror?  I look around me every day and I see beauty.  I see it in the dying fields of corn, ready to be harvested to feed people and animals.  I see it in the smiles of strangers as they pass me on their way to whatever awaits them.  I hear it in the laughter of children as they play (way too loudly) in my yard.  The sunrise and sunset are beautiful, even though the wheel of time tells me that it will soon get cold and I will not be able to sit on my porch with a book, being warmed by the sun.  How can you go through life believing that this is not enough??  If you do believe in God, aren’t you wasting all you were given by focusing on what happens after you’re dead??

Personally, I don’t like organized religion because I don’t like being told what to think.  I am willing to allow that there could be a higher being.  I think it’s fun to contemplate, actually.  But I don’t believe that anything that is omniscient or omnipotent would give a rat’s ass what you call it.  What matters is how you live your life.  Profess less; do more in kindness and without thought of reward, either now or in a possible afterlife.  No matter what you believe, you cannot be faulted for that.

Peace,
Reba

DB, for the record, I’m not an atheist.

I’ve read a handful of Hovind’s debates. His tactics are APPALLING. I will admit it seems that he has more charisma than your average astronomer, physicist, etc, but that doesn’t make him right. It just makes him a better showman. He needs the show, the spectacle, to be able to convince anyone of this crap. Someone not having memorized (or having available at the podium) every volume of scientifict data in the pertinent fields doesn’t make their case any less valid, it just means they’re not a human supercomputer. Hovind doesn’t need to worry himself with much supporting scientific data, as he just pulls his stuff conveniently out of his ass, no further research required…and his mentally deficient audience gobbles it up like candy.  If Hovind’s claims could stand up to any real scrutiny, he wouldn’t care what forum the debate took place in.

“The truth never harmed a cause that is just”. Think on it.

The NMSR’s “prank” wasn’t mature in the SLIGHTEST. Did you see it!? That’s what makes it so funny. It wasn’t even directed at Hovind. The humanoid being “eaten” was all but screaming and posing for a picture. I’ve done Halloween decorations in my yard that look more convincing. But their air of “cover up” was the brilliant part. People who are clinging pretty hard to ridiculous nonsense tend to jump on a “cover up” of that magnitude like flies on shit. How did he find it? One google search by him or one of his sheeple and he thinks he’s discovered the missing Creationist link (and touts it as so). Massive government coverups don’t let alot of WEB SITES WITH PICTURES through. Ashcroft won’t even let some hippies sell their “glasswares” online. The sites go down now almost as fast as they come up, but THIS glaring exposure of the Gigantic Creation Coverup would of course be sitting there for his parusal. Mmm hmm.

Les,
“Right, secretly the government is run by atheists and we control the science curriculum of all the schools everywhere. We just allowed a loud-mouth Bible thumper like Bush to be elected to throw you guys off the trail. You�re too smart for us DB, you found us out! What will we do now?! Guess it�s time to call out the CIA�s Black Ops team.“
well if what I said earlier is true, at least it’s working.

hey les, you still haven’t given me that site with 29 proofs for macro evolution, can I please have it?

well if what I said earlier is true, at least it�s working.

And you honestly think that it is true?

hey les, you still haven�t given me that site with 29 proofs for macro evolution, can I please have it?

I checked the original link I listed and it still works just fine for me. I’ve tested it both under IE and Mozilla and had no problems with it. I will repost it here for your benefit: 29 evidences in support of macro evolution.

As a Christian, I don’t see a competition between the theory of evolution (all of it) and that of Creation by God.  The Bible reveals that most often God works through more or less “natural” means.  Consider it like engineering:  Would an engineer approach each new task without any tools or without adapting his methodologies to previous completed projects?  Why reinvent the wheel unless you really do need a better wheel?  To me, it is most likely a case of starting out (with Creation) with a very small set of rules (operational constraints and interaction processes) and simple objects.  From there you keep building up and either expand the rules or you reach a level where those lower rules no longer apply and you abstract functionality on a new level.  (Internetworking works like this in IT)

I think it is just as silly for some anti-religion person to go out of their way to attack “creationists” as it is for self-labled Christians to deem it somehow against God to even propose such a theory.  Oh, did God somehow tell you exactly how things were done?

I have seen more zealous “faith” in regards to evolution theories that conflict and often are obviously fueled by desire for conflict, funding… or both.  I enjoy learning how things work and I doubt that will ever go away.  Any problems I have with evolution are not in any way based upon my faith in God and Christ.

Jason,
Quote “Oh, did God somehow tell you exactly how things were done?“

hhmmm, yes, he did. It’s called the bible, and it speaks of a literal 6 day creation.
God couldn’t have used evolution because that would mean that death brought man into the world, when clearly man brought death into the world because of sin, there was NO death before the sin of man.
Also why would God need an exeedingly long process to get us here? If he is who he is, then what the bible says he did isn’t unreasonable.
Evolution IS against God because it is against the bible. The bible is truth.
If you say your a christian, and believe in evolution, I’m not sure who your god is, but he is certainly not the god of the bible.
Maybe you should look into reading it?

So DB, did you check out Les’s link to the 29 evidences in support Macro Evolution?

Wow. 
I just finished reading the this thread starting in January.  Les, I can relate to an incredible amount of what you said, especially about reading, and re-reading the bible in an attempt to regain lost faith. 
I was about 16 when it happened to me.  I’ve pretty much been pissed of ever since- at all the people who tried to force that shit into my young mind.  There is no way we can expect our children to be able to reason, or to make moral decissions, if we try to present the bible as either reasonable, or as a moral guide. 

There have been so many idiotic statments made in this achive that deserve responces, but they have been capably handled, so I only have two things to add.

First, Scott are you:

A) A small child

B) Stupid

C) A small, stupid child

Finally to Justin, from earlier this year:

If you ever say you love me I’ll punch you in the jaw-symbolically of course, we live in a society here.

Jason, you use the term “self-labeled Christians” in your last post, which leads me to ask the obvious question: what other type of Christian is there? Anyone who values membership in the Christianity Club (CC) is likely to claim the distinction as a matter of principle, and since a proper certification process is non-existent, who’s to stop them? It is unfortunate, however, that the identification they value does little to foster brotherhood and harmony. Most Christians seem to live in a no-fault dream-state filled with a symbology that has no discernible correlation to the real world they occasionally awaken to. Yet, once awake, they seek to be perceived as smarter, better read, less sinful, more deserving of a new life after death and most aware what an absolute ruler of ALL THAT IS actually thought, thinks or will think. Astoundingly, they are able to correctly judge others utilizing a level of wisdom most could not reach without living at least a full century first (think DB, alias Dr. B and Dave). They are able to smite by proxy, (or at least will threaten to pray for) any who dare to disagree with what their decidedly feeble minds declare un-Christian and blasphemous. They are able to pass laws which further their causes and punish those who would live their own lives differently. But they have every right to call themselves Christian, since judge first, lest ye be judged is what Christianity stands for anyway.

Christians are full of themselves even if the club they profess to be card carrying members of lacks certification itself. But is it really too much to ask that the President of the club attend a meeting now and then, if for no other reason than to answer a couple of long lingering questions?

Still it must be nice to be a member of something, and if this membership allows one to feel one’s very soul is ultimately safe and allows one to feel loved and protected while earthbound, it’s difficult to imagine why everyone on the planet doesn’t belong to the CC.

I suspect that Christianity will never dominate the planet and will never bring about absolute peace on earth, as sub-faiths within the religion will continue to splinter off. The members of each faith seem to prefer discord, and why not? It boils the blood and gives them something to fight for. It gives each participant a greater sense of self and allows each a chance to awaken from a nightmare where anything is possible and no one truly gets hurt, to an absolute state where blood and is spilled and those who belong to the club can partake in an holy ass-kicking, free of guilt with no fear of retribution. Boy, isn’t the Christian life grand? Give me that old time religion!
Oh, and DB, “The Bible is truth”!!! Dude, go back to calling yourself Dr. B - It’s the only hope you have of coming off as learned. Couldn’t you at least have humored me by commencing spelling you’re instead of “your”? It’s the only thing I specifically asked you to do.

Brock,
I know you think you’ve got christians all figured out, and I know you’ve got some serious problems with the way they “are”.
I’m so glad that you’ve lumped everyone that claims to be a christian in with true, bible believing christians. That’s nice to see as always. Your mocking helps aswell Brock, I think your….winning? There may be people who claim to be christians out there that DO judge you or put you down for not being “good” enough, and think that they “deserve” to go to heaven by the way that they live. However that’s not the christian mentality as it should be, I’m trying to represent what a christian should be like from now on, and yes I probably didn’t do the best job of that in past messages, and I realize that. So my appolagies if I judged you or anyone else on this site.
If there is one thing I have learned on this site is: A good way to measure ones arrogance is their quickness in pointing out arrogance in others.

and yes Brock, “Truth”, the only way my faith stands up to anything is if the bible is true, and it is, unless someone can prove otherwise, I will continue trusting in it.

Field Marshal Dr. B,

I don�t agree with all of Brock�s overgeneralizations about Christianity, but I�d like to comment on a statement you made:

There may be people who claim to be christians out there that DO judge you or put you down for not being �good� enough, and think that they �deserve� to go to heaven by the way that they live. However that�s not the christian mentality as it should be, I�m trying to represent what a christian should be like from now on, and yes I probably didn�t do the best job of that in past messages, and I realize that.

This will be catalogued as CCC 123-5667.  I�ll be willing to bet that most of those folks that YOU say �claim to be Christians� probably get up in the morning thinking they�re doing the right thing.  It�s the ambiguity of the bible that leads to all the confusion�a point that Christians loathe to acknowledge.  Mormons believe they know the truth as do Catholics and Pentecostals and certainly they could all present references in the bible to support their beliefs.  And who might you be to say that their mentality is not as it should be?

You guys stole the Jewish religion, modified it and made the Jews �unbelievers�; how crazy is that?  At least when the Romans stole the Greek religion they only changed the names of the gods; they didn�t demonize the Greeks.  Most all of your �sacred� quotations come from preachers (John, Mark, Luke, Paul, etc.) whereas most of Jewish beliefs are based on what God said!  You guys don�t even much mess with the Old Testament�it�s just a history book(oh except when you want to engage in biblical gay bashing). 

In summation, I don�t have a problem with Christians unless they try to push their way of thinking on me.  I think it�s pretty bold of you to say that YOU have �the plan� on worship while those �bad Christians� aren�t living up to YOUR standards.  Arrogance�thy name is DB.

DB, I wouldn’t say I’m trying to “win” at anything, unless you consider my attempting to individually contribute counter-effects to the harm Christianity has done to the world’s civilizations as a “win”. I see the invalidation of Christianity as necessary to rectify the injustices resulting from a movement that was contrived and implemented to mislead and control the masses for individual gain. Christianity germinates legions of slack-minded loose-jawed automatons. It encourages followers to believe that life should be lived with the afterlife as their primary concern and causes them to miss the chances they have to propagate the quality of life we all deserve now and from now on. It allows them to imagine the need to control issues that do not personally threaten their well-being and fosters discord and confrontation. So, while they try to come off as altruistic and innocent of vicious intent, I see them as an immense and harmful threat to society.
I’ve listened too often to hate-spewing control seeking evangelists and sweet sounding disciples talk of love and concern for others, while advocating denial of respect for, and unconditional acceptance of homosexuals, AIDS sufferers, women, artists, blacks, democrats, believers of other religions (or no religion) and etc. The list goes on and on and on. Then it goes on some more. Knowing your opinion of gays alone, DB, is enough to tell me that you refuse to open your mind even slightly to the possibilities in life beyond your limited and religion tainted collection of personal experiences.

Do I come off as extreme in my dissatisfaction? I should, because I see little good coming from what you seem to believe. This world is full of idiots that use a mere book to justify countless injustices. This is not a simple “we can agree to disagree” situation. Christianity’s many faiths continue to adversely affect the world I live in, so it isn’t an insignificant matter to me.
Did I over-generalize, Mild Bill? Probably, but it’s difficult to be specific with a subject as broad and basic as Christianity. I could list events that illustrate the damage a Christian does to an individual but then I get accused of utilizing an isolated event to unfairly represent the larger picture which the offended say shouldn’t be used to qualify the faith in it’s entirety. So I left it to the reader to relate the broad example to a specific one they’ve experienced.

Has blood been spilt for Christianity’s sake? Yes, and innocent people suffer, starve and die violent deaths daily because they are heathens. Hate crimes are continuously perpetrated, even forgiven in this God’s name, and all his followers can say is that the perpetrator isn’t a typical Christian. Individuals feel pressured to conform to its tenets. Priests, Rabbis and Preachers hold their hands out and say I am the way to THE WAY, give me money, admiration and license to steal, to conceal!“ Politicians pass laws based on the incontestable rightness of the beliefs they hold dear. They waste our taxes on religion based projects that offer no true benefits.

Let’s stop being dismissive and address the truth of the matter. The Bible and the religions it inspires have done much harm. Societies suffer lack of progression and deserved liberties because of their prevalence. This is not an insignificant non-issue being discussed by faceless non-affected entities. We are all deeply affected constantly by the methods and madness of hate and fear filled Christian individuals. To pretend otherwise is to give support for the intent of those who blithely insist on the goodness and rightness of this loveless organization. To justify it’s inhumane doctrines and fuzzy dictates leaves one guilty as an accomplice. There is no other way to discuss it without bringing personal blame and expectation of one’s awareness into the picture. I’ve said it before and I know it sounds trite but look into your heart! That is where you will find your individual godhood and your sense of responsibility to others. It would be nice if we could evolve into a smarter, kinder species, but if we do, it will only become evident as we toss Christianity and co-design a new and all encompassing outlook for life.

[APPLAUSE]

That was gooooood. Whew! I need a cigarette…

Thanks Brandi, and it’s beginning to seem that peer pressure is often to blame for close calls with Christianity. I had no brothers and four older sisters so to escape them I hung out with and practically lived with two brothers who’s family was heavy into Baptist church going. Seriously Christian, they expected me to attend along with them. While 11 years old, I had more nightmares ascribable to church attendance with them than due to the horrible divorce my parents went through a couple of years later. Both you and Les relate childhood peer contacts as reasons for church attendance. Talk about peer pressure! Better yet, talk about the blind leading the blind.

Wow Brock, that was really something. I think with you I’m going to have to agree to disagree.
Some of the things you say show that you have quite an intense hate for Christianity. I’m sorry that you feel that way, and that you are so misinformed about it.
See, if any group of apparent “christians” do not believe that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins, and then rose the third day, then there is not use in what they are doing.
Like mild bill said, catholics, mormons etc… all think that they’re right, however, bill is wrong in saying that the bible backs them all up, IT DOESN’T. The most important part of the bible is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Neglecting that is kissing the only chance man has to be saved goodbye.
Fact of the matter is that were sinners, ALL OF US, we need a savior, and all you have to do is ask. He’ll save you right now as you read this if you’d just ask and believe. It’s not rocket science to get saved.
See all these others, mormons etc… they’re all about working your way to heaven. “if I can just visit enough houses” or “if I can just be a good enough person”
Truth of the matter is that you CAN’T!
You can never be good enough to get to heaven, all it takes is realizing you need a savior, and asking.
Your probably going to lash out with your “stop trying to force you beliefs” or something, but I’m just sharing with you, nothing more.

I’m sure you’ve heard “hate the sin not the sinner” before. So don’t pass your judgement on me for hating anyone, I don’t. Especially not you man, your one of my favorites.
I don’t know where you get off saying that we’re anti-black. The bible is clear about all men being created equal. Evolution pretty much forces you to be racist. haha im ready for an outlash, but I’m prepared for one.

you said “It would be nice if we could evolve…“
It sure would Brock, it sure would.