Les, I am interested in knowing why both theories of the beginning of all that we know, creation and evolution, are not religion or religious in nature?

After seeing the comments on believing in order to hedge your bets, I recalled a quote that gives a more logical alternative.

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear. “Thomas Jefferson”

Valhalla

I want to post my thoughts on this, even though I’m a bit late. 
*Warning: it is a bit long.*

I welcome intelligent feedback, corrections, and even criticism.
Especially if there are flaws in my logic, theories, science, or deductions.

Here is the situtation:
I often ask Creationists about where the dinosaurs are in the Bible.
I’ve heard people say the “dragons” are dinosaurs before, and laughed.

But I’ve never heard crazy stuff like aqautic ones swimming while it was flooding!
OK, so now “water dragons” (dinosaurs) swam during the flood… I guess we ignore the fact that there is about 65 million years between us and them.

You could never claim the Ark was big enough for land “dragons” to fit on it.. 2 of each, plus enough food to feed creatures bigger than my apartment?!
Brachiosaurus was about 23 m in length and 12 m in height (about the length of two large school buses and the height of a four-story building).  Argentinasaurus and Amphicoelias might have been one and a half to two times larger than Brachiosaurus.  Sauroposeidon would be about 60 tons and stand 18 m (60 feet) tall.
For reference, the largest known animal on Earth is the blue whale. Mature blue whales can measure anywhere from 75 feet (23 m) to 100 feet (30.5 m) from head to tail, and can weigh as much as 150 tons (136 metric tons).

They must have died off DURING the Big Rain (another case of goDs Love/Genocide?) but were convienently never mentioned.

Heck, you could never show me how you could build a boat to hold all the creatures in my local zoo, not to mention every creature on the planet, big and small, 2 by 2...plus food?  Who got to clean up after them anyway?

But here is where simple common sense that an 8 year old understands comes in handy.
Earth is covered with mostly (salt) water.

Big Rain = lots of fresh (salt-free) water, unless goD let loose a salt water rain, but it doesn’t matter.

Any fish tank owner understands basic aquatic ecology: don’t put a FRESH water fish in salt water.
It won’t do so well… in fact, correct me if I’m wrong, it will die…
No SALT water fish will thrive in fresh water, either.

Either way, with the “flood” you have changed the salt levels of the water on the WHOLE planet, right?
Too salty for fresh water creatures, not salty enough for ocean-dwellers, or (likely) both.

Don’t forget now immense crushing pressure from that much extra water.
Creatures staying near the bottom of the earth-ocean are in trouble.  It isn’t going to work. 
A fish stays in the ocean or lake it is from and dies from the new pressure.
Aquatic creatures are ok in certain pressure ranges, right? 
So they move closer to the newly created surface only to die from the saline difference.

Soon almost ALL aquatic life would be dead!!
Sharks, whales, dolphins… Catfish, salmon, trout…
Even aquatic plants would probably die, since the ecology is all out of kilter.
That means no plant life anywhere on the planet.  Nothing to convert carbon-dioxide to oxygen.
How would plant life recover?  Planet is now doomed.  Have a nice day.

The salt (or fresh water) “dragons” die too, for the guy who claimed they were happily swimming while it was raining. 
Bye-bye fishies!!  All of them.  No more Surf, just Turf.

An 8 year old knows you will end up flushing your goldfish if it is in salt water too long!
Heck, if the pH balance is not JUST right, it will die before you get it home from Wal-Mart!! LOL!

Creationists believe it rained for 40 days & nights?  Enough to cover the world?
Marlins and swordfish would seem to disprove this - because they are STILL here.
Unless they evolved from what was left after the salt/fresh water fiasco. 

Besides, no Creationist ever seems to care how HARD it would have to rain for that.
I live on the Mighty Mississippi River, second largest river in the world.
It had to rain for (roughly) 2 weeks to flood up to the St. Louis Arch and beyond.
Granted it wasn’t 14 WHOLE days and nights, but c’mon!  Did anyone see footage of the Great Flood of ‘93?
It rained a big chunk of that 2 weeks.  It all started because of big rains up north, more water…
3 or 4 more weeks to cover the whole planet, huh?  Good Luck with that.
It is about as likely as putting 5 BILLION people in Loch Ness…

So, how did all the fish survive this catastrophe?  Easy. 
The “Great Flood of ‘BC” was likely a periodic flood of the Tigris-Euphrates Valley that MANY cultures and religions reference.  The TEV was the “whole world” for some people in that era, when the world was flat.  True story.  The Church said so.

The flood was exaggrated for shock value by early Judeo-Christian sects and used to control & brainwash the masses as time went on.  Great job.  It is still working.

The sects took the flood and plagarised it, then incorporated it into another GRIM Fairy Tale.

Just like they took the concept of 1 good goD: Mithras / Mithra
** He was a goD who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer… sound familiar?!

Just like they took the concept of goD dying and being re-born in a rock tomb or cave: Mithras, again

Just like they took “Do Unto Others...”: Confucious
ad nauseum…

At least the Brothers Grimm didn’t claim authorship of their stories, or say they were absolutely true!
Fables & Parables in liturature, a fictional work.

Maybe all the Good Christians should be called Deluded Mithraists?
All this because they read and believe a poorly-written, contradictory, scientifically inaccurate, book. 
We would be better off if they read the “Tao Te Ching” or “If Chins Could Kill: Confessions of a B Movie Actor”

Oh, well.  What more is expected from people who have FAITH that the planet is around 7,000 years old when SCIENCE proves otherwise?
Maybe this is a waste of time.  It isn’t like any of this will sink in to them anyway. 
Nothing common about common sense.

The above is all my ideas & concepts, based on various sources.  Fueled by Freethought and Logic.

Nice to see someone looking at things from all angles before settling on a viewpoint. (applauds) I don’t know if I agree with everything you’ve said here, but I certainly agree with the sentiment behind it, ie not accepting things ‘just because’, but actually looking deeper to find a more realistic definition.

The whole flood story is insane to me.  The largest wooden vessels ever built were American coal ships in the early 20th century that were just over 300 ft long.  These ships were reinforced with iron straps because the expansion of the wood joints could not be adequately sealed, unlike with the ark.  They actually snaked through the water with the stern and bow oscillating in different directions!  The ships leaked so badly that water had to be pumped out continuously or they would sink.  They were only used for coastal shipping�they could never have survived in the deep ocean.  A conservative estimate on the length of the ark is 450 ft long! 

I believe Hovind says the flood was around 2200 BC.  The Exodus was supposed to be around 1400 BC and the Hebrews were in Egypt for over 400 years before that, so they arrived around 1800 BC.  Certainly Egypt must have been a thriving empire well before 1800 BC, but I�ll just use that date.  So between 2200 and 1800 BC, Noah and his family produced enough offspring to populate the Egyptian Empire and the rest of the world?

Amazingly none of the Egyptians realized they were descended from Noah�wouldn�t that information have been passed down to them?  It was only a few centuries.  And who built those pyramids...Hebrew slaves?  Of course Hovind realizes the problem and has Adam building the pyramids before the flood, which they somehow survived intact!

If you want to believe this story, I think going on faith definitely beats trying to explain it with pseudo-science and lies!

Gee, I wonder why the Pharaoh during Exodus is never named in the Bible...maybe because then it would have been too easy to raise the bullshit flag!

After reading the comments on this site I now see why Romans 1:22-25 is so true.

Gee Al, think you could try something a little more original for a comment next time? Like I’ve not had Romans 1:22-25 tossed around on this site before. It’s a popular verse for folks who don’t have anything else to back up their faith.

OK Al, are we the fools or is Hovind?

Al,

I personally prefer reading “The Hobbit”, it has a better story line, and it doesn’t throw in a new lead character in the middle.

Mild Bill,

I am pretty sure we have already covered that one.

Hello fellow feeble-minded idiotic human water bags,
The fact that i am an infinitely finite being with limited mental capacities means that it is impossible for me to master, much less comprehend, the workings and mechanics of the awe-inspiring, transcendant universe.  Science provides the best guesses based on the available evidence that our genocidal, xenophobic species can investigate with our five (six?) underdeveloped senses.  If you want feel like the center of someone’s attention and muster up some artificial self-esteem, read any number of religious texts.  There will be “proven” the pseudo-divinity of man.  You can then rest assured that every aspect of the vast, complex universe can be known completely and there is an invisible entity that can be thanked/blamed for all of your blessings/curses.  Personally, I think either John Lennon or Jimi Hendrix was the second coming of Jesus/Mohammed/Buddha/etc. and died for my sins.  When Kent Hovind dies, I am sure Hovindism will be propagated throughout Southern Florida.  If it ever infects the rest of the USA as the new religion, I will have my sniper rifle ready to exterminate its drooling, moronic converts--or I will just fly to Argentina and find a transexual, caramel-skinned hotty with a nice booty to dominate me during our S & M sexual gameplay.  Hopefully a third subsex of caramel-skinned transexual dominatrices will evolve from our spawn.  Until then, to all of you Hovindists, I will eat your children and spit out their remains on your graves.  Long live John and Jimi!!  God bless you all, except for you Les.  Join me in hell bro.

Les, is this website the highlight of your life? So you’re going to commit your life to expressing your hate to complete strangers? Are you telling me that this decaying world is all to look forward to? No eternity? This is it? Have you told your children that? You’re born, you live, and then you die. How horrifying. If that is the case, why not end their lives right now and ease their pain from future events? What’s the meaning to life? However, I know you love your children very much. What parent wouldn’t take a bullet for their child? For someone to feel that this is it is tragic enough, but what is even worse is how some people die with bitter hearts. Someone once told me “You can not have the peace of God, until you make peace with God.” I find it amazing that after all those times that you’ve cursed God, blamed Him for every wrong and disguisting thing, unfair and tragic event that has ever happened in your life, He still loves you to the fullest and is waiting for you to come to Him. Les, He waits for you still with open arms wanting to take away your mental anguish, your frustration, your pain, your anger, and replace it with a sound mind, a fulfilled heart, and a new hope. Tell me this, what is the greatest expression of love someone can ever do? Jesus did just that on the cross for your children and you. Don’t forget. May He bless you and your children then ever before! Much love, sincerely
the one you hate

I stumbled onto this website while looking for a reference to an old song of which I have a partial recording.  I confess I am impressed with the quality of the dialog (not that impressing me was the probable intention).  I am what most people would call an atheist, although the word has come to represent a more assertive belief that there is no God rather than the opinion that no God has ever been proven.  However, as fun as this discussion is, I am not so much concerned with the faith or lack of it of any particular individual as I am with the effects that faith in a particular deity seems to have on groups of people.

Why is it that so many of the conflicts both today and throughout history seem to be between groups each professing faith in a particular brand of religion?  Catholics have slaughtered Protestants for being Protestant, and Protestants have slaughtered Catholics for being Catholic, and they both have slaughtered Jews for being Jews.  Muslims and Hindus fight each other in India and Kashmir, and radical Islam has managed to terrify all of modern western civilization.  Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Indonesia and the list goes on and on.  The root causes are never purely religious, and yet it seems that religion provides the tools.  I mean, who knows what motivates Osama ben Laden, but his followers appear to be motivated by religious fanaticism.

The only group that I know of that has never actually inflicted horrible bloodshed on another is atheists.  I don’t pretend to be as erudite as most of the folks that have contributed to this discussion, but I know of no instance of an outraged band of agnostics roaming around the countryside killing people of a particular religion merely for the sake of that belief. To me, that gives the atheists something of the moral high ground.  It seems that the more certain people are that they are in possession of the “Truth”, the more they believe it gives them the right to impose their belief on others, by force if necessary.  This seems to me to be a defensive mechanism. When we subscribe to a particular faith, it becomes a part of our identity.  Any perceived attack on that faith becomes a personal attack on ourselves.  This makes destroying the perceived threat a matter of self defense, the most basic justification of force there is.  Add to this the concept that there is an afterlife that is more important than life itself, and the idea of either dying or killing for your religious beliefs makes a kind of sense.

You can argue the origins of the universe to your heart’s content - the only thing I am pretty sure of is that the universe itself doesn’t really care what you think.  And the flood story makes no sense to me either, but if God decreed that the fish could live through it, then so be it (I don’t even like fish!). But let’s put aside the rhetorical game for a moment and think about the real effects of religion on people.  I know it can inspire the best in humanity.  So much of art and music is motivated by faith in a loving God.  But the bloodshed, the hatreds, the evil perpetrated in the name of one god or another - is it worth it?

I have never contributed to a website discussion before. I am still not certain if I will push the “Post” button, although I was taken by the level of give and take on this one (and maybe a little by the bottle of cheap Merlot I just finished).  But I was hoping that those of you that have been arguing on the side of having a faith in God might be able to explain why such a faith seems to inspire greatness on an individual level, and yet motivate most of the worst acts of inhumanity by one group upon another.

The only group that I know of that has never actually inflicted horrible bloodshed on another is atheists.

I think that is probably because we have a sneaking suspicion that if we ever tried to congregate in a group large enough to be a formidable force ALL other groups would use the opportunity to converge on us and wipe us out (...shall we use the nukes Mr president?). Oh, and without a strongly held belief in a supreme being we don’t have enough passion to kill in the name of nothing.

The assumption that atheists are all depressed, anti-social, homicidal maniacs is one I get a lot. I get “oh you poor girl, what happened to make you question your faith?” and the ever popular “well there’s got to be something there!” Let me explain my position, I used to be Christain, my family wasn’t always that religious but we still believed in God. We fell on hard times, and it was just me and my mom and sisters. When we started getting back on our feet my mom decided we should start attending church. So I did, for a few years. There I gave myself to Jesus, signed that sexual abstinance card, and praised and worshiped “Him”. I’ve always been a ligical thinker, and all I could see around me was a contradiction to what I was being ‘taught’. People who say they love one another and then cut you off in thier SUV when you’re leaving the parking lot. Or the fact that there were no minorities at all that I could see, and we have more than a thousand people attend the church. Little by little I began to research religions, all religions, and what I saw made me think, “there is no God.” I studied philosophy, psychology, biology, astronomy, physics. Now, I had always loved science and when I lost my faith it wasn’t because the Big Bang theory explained why there was no god, but it helped. I also hold the principles of Evolution to be true. In fact, micro-evolution does exist, it’s what happens when virus’ and bacteria become immune to drugs that worked previously. Now if that occurs, micro (small scale) why can’t macro. It would take much longer, granted, but it’s very possible. I’ve also heard theists claim that “ok evolution exists, then god made us able to evolve” or “okay he created the earth and let it all happen.” I really can’t disprove that or prove it, it’s really a matter of what you believe.

All I want is to live my life in peace, I don’t go around throwing copies of Dawin’s Origin of Species at people saying “convert now! The mutations end’s are upon us!” Which is quite comical, I don’t mind debating theories at all, in fact most of my friends and co-workers are religions (not just Christian, Catholic) but pagan, muslim, jewish, etc… If someone is intrested I give them my point of view and then I listen to thiers, when I try to make a point on something they have said, if they listen respectfully, even though they may not agree, I have no qualms with said person, it’s the people who are disrespectful who annoy me, and probably all atheists can agree. On my website there are some Atheist related pages, including an explaination on why I’m atheist.

Thanks for your time, I know I often go on tangents!

Shaye

*logical, *religious

There....typos, sorry about that. I do proof-read, but your mind automatically corrects words it knows are wrong, like when you have a word with an extra letter in it, you might not notice. (Usually it’s a double vowel if I’m correct).

Shaye

Shaye, I’m not an atheist, but I have learned alot about them on this page and I have grown to respect them alot, much more than I once did. I have learned that they can convince themselves of just about anything they want to believe, I know that they can say the same thing about me, I’m not trying to be arogant.
So I will try to respond with respect and with no preconceived superiority.
You said that all you could see around you was a condradiction to what you’ve been “taught”. Are you in other words saying that people were not doing exactly what the Bible said was right?
What you were seeing is man’s sinful nature, not a lack of God, do you think that becoming a christian makes you able to be a perfect person on this earth? It’s obvious that no man can ever live up to the Bibles teachings, thats the point. It’s to show us that we NEED a savior, not for us to be able to accomplish some impossibly perfect lifestyle.
I don’t quite understand the SUV cut-off thing, does this show that they don’t love you? Sorry, I don’t know, I’ll continue.
When you said minoritys did you mean different races? at your specific church, that may be true, but in general, thats a poor observation. In fact most of the strongest believers are from places where they are persecuted for their beliefs, China, the Phillipines...etc. There are huge amounts of “minoritys” all over America aswell.

Yes, micro-evolution does exist, virus’ are a perfect example of it. I even think les argues that it’s proof for macro.(please, correct me if im wrong)
But you’ve gone and tossed macro-evolution right in there with it, under the reasoning of “why not” or “what if”.
Your saying that you and a carrot have a “common ancestor” but claim to have “common sense” all at the same time.
Creationists that also believe in evolution, cannot also believe the Bible, It clearly talks of literal 6 day creation. And for the record, Why would a perfect God create a world that had to come about by chance? That would allow the chance that nothing would be created, it which his creation, would be nothing! You’d think that if he is who he is, he could do it right the first time. So I’m with ya on that one!
shaye, I can’t judge you, on this website I can barely get away with being human, keep believing what you do, so long as you think first.

you didn’t mention what your website was, could I have it please? I’d love to check it out.

the devil is smarter than anyone one of us on earth.  therefore he has the ability to decieve us.  he can decieve some one who rejects God much easier than some who has faith in God.  God will give u wisdom if u ask for it.  anyways, my point is that the devil’s greatest trick is to make people believe that he doesnt exist.  think about that for a second. 

about the craetion vs. evolution debate.  its very simple. the evolution theory is one of the devil great tricks.  i can’t see how everything today came from a rock (which hasnt a scrap of life).  and i cant see how my ancestor used to be a mango, or a coconut, hehe.  hold on let me stop laughing.  okay, so were did those “ancestor” rocks come from anyways?  its never been seen or proven that something can come from nothing.  its impossible.  that does take a lot of faith to believe.  all the wonderful things of this world came from nothing???  sounds like a religion to me.  the evolution theory is just that, a religion. and it does take aq whole lot more faith for me to believe bilions of years ago i was a rock.  hehe.  dam that just too funny. 

its just so plain to see that the evolution theory is a tool used by the devil.  but whats been kept in darkness will come to light.  im not trying to judge anyone.  thats Gods job.  but i know for a fact that a lot of people will feel like idiots when they finally find the truth, which is Jesus, and realize the stupidity of evolutionary theory.

i challenge people to research the new world order and the goal and philosophy behind.  its evil and its the reason why u see so much crap on tv ( porno, evolution theory, gays, violence, immoral behavior) its all used to brainwash and curropt poeple...especially children.  its very sad and very serious. 

anyways, i hope u people who reject God to wake up and see the plan of the devil and realize that ur being sucked in.

lataz,
bless.

Yes, the Devil is certainly dominating the minds of many. The best part is that they are 100% convinced that he is not.
This is what make’s him so smart, if atheists are certain that they’re research and observations are true, and come to the conclusion that the Devil has no part in it, then the Devil has truly dominated them.
I do however think that they’re going to rip on you pretty hard for some of the stuff you said though redi. (not that I disagree with you)
Nice to see your thoughts though!
DB

I want so desperately to respond to Redi’s comments. Yet I find myself only able to read and re-read, just...blinking.

I don’t know that I’ve ever read so much tripe. Or seen someone that has so wholly swallowed every morsel of bullshit ever spewed by some slack-jawed mouth-breathing backwater church leader.

I suppose to debate someone you’ve got to first share a common reality, which we apparently do not.

I’m new here, not as honed as the regulars. Somebody please jump in and respond to this load of manure as it is killing my sensibilities to see it sitting here unchallenged.

The problem is that I just don’t know where to start. I can’t figure out how to argue with a fairy tale. It’s too easy to ascribe any attributes you like to a fictional character and evolve (oh!) and change them as it fits your world view and the people/things you hate.

There is very little need to comment on any of this crap again; I�ve commented numerous times to this thread.  I took Biology last year in college and I recall nothing in the evolution section of the course that suggested any of the things Dr Dino does.

I�ll not comment any further on this issue except to say that anyone that believes this moron Hovind is obviously so out of touch with reality that we could debate this for years and not get anywhere.  Hovind�s idiotic definitions of evolution and straw man arguments can�t possibly be believed or accepted by any rational person.

If the �creationist model� is so accurate, why don�t they do something with it?  That�s what �real scientists� do by the way.  If the world is only 6,000 years old, that would lead me to believe that all the fossil fuels we currently use could be considered a renewable resource.  If oil was made naturally in only a few thousand years, couldn�t the creationists use current technology to accelerate that natural process?  All it takes is heat and pressure.

How many diseases have been cured using the creationist model?  Please don�t give me the bull about laetrile.  You would have to be the most idiotic paranoid that ever lived to believe, as Hovind suggests, that laetrile is a cure for cancer that has been suppressed by �the medical establishment�.  I�ve heard rumors that there are Christian doctors.  I�ll make the assumption that some are oncologists, so following Hovind�s thinking; they are also complicit in this conspiracy. 

the devil is smarter than anyone one of us on earth.

I�ll call this one Confused Christian Comment (CCC) number 122-2322.  If the Devil is so smart, how come he doesn�t know he�s not going to win at the end of the book?  I�ve posed this question to Christians and I got some amusing responses.  One said that the Devil is �crafty� not �intelligent�.  So I submit that Mr “Lew Cypher” doesn�t know as much as we do and liken him to Mr Wile E. Coyote; crafty, but not the brightest bulb.

Oh well, point is we believe what we want to, or don’t and that’s all I’m going to say.

I want to be left alone, perhaps commenting on this tread was a bad idea U_U’

Shaye

Oh and to redi, assuming that I’m being swayed by the devil, 2 points: how can I be swayed by something that’s made up by humans, and secondly

I eat babies by the moonlight while singing arias at high volume
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I share your pain Brandi. Redi’s comment inspired my entry today proposing guidelines folks should follow if they want to be taken seriously when commenting here at SEB. Redi fails most of those guidelines and I end up being torn between giving this person the benefit of the doubt and engaging in responding to the same set of silly arguments that have been spewed time and again in other comments in other threads by other similarly clueless individuals or just skipping over to the part where I mock their inability to capitalize the start of their sentences along with their inability to rise above ridiculously simplistic arguments.

At the moment I’m going to refrain from even starting in on this because I feel that open mocking would win out over giving the benefit of the doubt at this point.

In response to Mild Bill’s question stating that “if the devil is so smart why doesn’t he know that he isn’t going to win at the in of the Bible?”
In my own opinion(for what it’s worth) I think that the devil either refuses to accept the word of God or he is still trying to become like God himself.  Isaiah 14;13-14(NIV) says, speaking about Satan.....You(speaking to Satan) said in your(Satan) heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of the assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.  I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”
This leads me to believe that the reason Satan want give up in this world is because he wants so desperatly to be God.
Anyway, this is simply my own personal opinion of what I believe may be the answer to your question, but remember it is just my opinion because I don’t really know the answer to that question, but it really is a legitimate question.

Thanks,
Patrick

It really is a legitimate question??????  HAHAHAHA--I laugh in your face!  Here are some big words for you to look up, Patrick: 
Ignoramus
Microencephaly
Arachibutyrophobia

Some, or all, of these words may apply to you, Patrick.