Like superintendant Chalmers said on the Simpsons: “Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion”.

All I have to say is that I have NOTHING to say about that. It’s so unbelievably outrageous that I don’t know what to say. I can’t believe that some people are so fucking brainwashed they are so blind to the real world. What’s worse than preaching the fucking Bible, is writing your own goddamn rules, and then hiding behind religion claiming you’re right, cause God is watching. Well fuck you, you crazy religious mother fuckers! I hope there is a heaven, and there is a hell, so that when I die, at least I’ll have the satisfaction of kicking your ASS!

Wow. Calvin’s got a little of the passion going there. Though it’s not hard to understand why, people like Hovind to tend to bring that sort of reaction out pretty easily.

All I can say is that in a country that makes shows like Crossing Over big time ratings hits is it any wonder that people like Hovind are impervious to reality?

Uhm, I must object. Hitler did not feel that he was the avenging hand of God avenging Jesus. This is, by and large, a widespread myth.

If you pick up Hitler’s Table Talk, also published as Hitler’s Secret Conversations, which are legitimate transcripts of countless private conversations between Hitler and his henchmen, you’ll find that he viewed Christianity as a perversion of the Jews and viewed it as the religion of “the martyr and the faggot” and the weak, and also the source of much perversion in the modern world.

Publicly, he did claim to be doing Christ’s work. Privately, he both viewed the religion with contempt and discouraged SS officers and other confidants from attending any religious services.

For the record, I’m not a religious man and not particularly a Bible believer.  I’m just pointing to the history, which you can review for yourself. You can also find talk about the difference between Hitler’s private and public views on religion in general and Christianity in particular in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Hitler’s man purpose was to co-opt Christian many forms of Christian symbolism (like the Swastika, for just one example) and to claim to be doing God’s work , while simultaneously deconstructing and destroying most mainstream Christian theology and churches.

Just FYI.

Hmmm. Interesting. I have to admit that I don’t think I’ve read those books yet. I’ll definitely have to hunt them down and see what they have to say. I’m always willing to adjust my views when presented with new evidence. Most of what I’ve read on Hitler over the years has generally stated his stance as a Christian as being legitimate. Thanks for the heads up Dean. I’ll definitely look into this further.

Yeah, I’ve got the passion. I had a webpage a while ago, and among many sections, I had my own Commentary section. I wrote a large commentary on religion, what it means to me, and basically ripped everyone who believes religion is the answer to anything.
It was wonderfully harsh, but since then the webpage has been shut down due to outside interference by the local police. I do not make this up, it was the dumbest claim of misappropriation ever. So anyway, yeah I have the passion, and I just eat up this page. I laugh every time I see a new story. Thank-you for that.

Your Name says it all about the Effects of Pride: conciet and arrogance in an attempt to hide Ignorance. This Pride keeps most people from learning the Truth: consistant in thought, action and effect. Addicted to your Pain and Afraid of Change: From a Monster; Vain, Senitive, and Inmature; Silly, Stupid,  wanton, foolish, Ignorant and Self Willed Evil Servants of the Spirit of the Beast.

The word “Les” says all of that? Wow! Here I thought it was just an abbreviated form of my full first name when all along it was some cool secret code for whatever-the-hell you just said.

I may be a “Self Willed Evil Servants of the Spirit of the Beast”, but at least I know how to use a spell checker and form semi-readable sentences. I suppose a spell checker must be a tool of Satan or something.

I always love how people who leave these comments aren’t brave enough to supply a valid email address or even a name. Must be afraid I’ll use it to get into their computer and eat their soul!

ahhh..that’s a shame.  What on earth have your poor souls been fed with?  My brothers…I urge you to go back and read your responses to this original document.  Take a moment and think about what you are saying.  Does your heart really provoke you to hate with such profanity?  Before you think up a clever response that reaks of pride, arrogance and rudeness, and your special ability to win a spelling bee…consider what is deep down in your heart.  You all know there is a God…and I know that you are comfortable living in that denial, but until you actually take time to know Him personally…I would suggest you simply keep quiet about it, because when the day comes that you have to stand before God…you won’t have a prayer of repentance!  There’s plenty of evidence for God, but if you want to ignore it all…you can’t blame God in the end for not revealing Himself to you. 

You’re all like smokers, drug addicts, drunks and the like…everyone knows that these things are bad for them…yet they still live in denial, thinking that they will never get sick from it.  Then the day finally comes when they get lung cancer or liver cancer or they simply overdose.  You can run from God and not listen to His call as long as you want…but know this, once you overdose with your worldly pleasures…there’s no cure…you’re dead!  Stop living in denial…pick up a Bible…and start reading it.  You don’t have to be religious or go to some church to be saved.  Just believe that Jesus died to wash your sins away and turn away from those sins to His righteousness…and as much as you hate Him and want Him out of your life…He still loves you and wants you back in His life.  He didn’t create you that you should perish.  He didn’t die for you for the heck of it.  He wants us all to live with Him forever and ever.  Hell is simply an existence in which God is absent from.  He loves you that much…that if you don’t want anything to do with God…Hell would be your heaven…because God is finally out of your life for good and won’t be callin upon you anymore…but with that…all purity, holyness, goodness, and godliness is absent and you will never be able to enjoy it again, as you are able to on Earth.

We may have goodness and badness on this earth…but at least it’s not hell just yet!

God Bless you my friends…even though I’m sure I’ll be getting some proudly atheistic remarks to this message…I love ya anyways

Justin

OK, I’ve gone back and re-read my responses to this original document and I’ve taken a moment to think of what I am saying. What was that exercise suppose to show me? Does my heart really provoke me to hate with such profanity? I’m not sure exactly what that means, but I use profanity regularly without any feelings of hate. I don’t tend to hate anyone though a lot of people do annoy the shit out of me.

OK, I’ve considered what is deep down in my heart and I don’t know that there is a God or Gods. In fact, deep down in my heart, I’m pretty certain that there aren’t any. However, if one of them wishes to demonstrate to me otherwise I’d be more than happy to pay attention. There was I time I believed I did know him/her/it personally. I was once a very devout Baptist, but I took your advice and actually read the Bible and that led me away from believing. I think that if more people were to actually read the Bible instead of just select passages then more folks would do as I do and give up their faith. I actually encourage people to read their Bibles for that very purpose. A lot of them are shocked at what it contains.

You claim there is plenty of evidence for God and that I ignore it, yet you don’t list what you consider evidence. Based on my standards, which are obviously much different from yours, there is absolutely no evidence in support of the concept of God. Why do Christians always insist that those of us who don’t believe in your fantasy “deep down know God exists” and that we’re “trying to ignore him” as if you have a clue what I or anyone else truly think or believe? You talk about atheist’s arrogance, how about the arrogance of sitting there in your self-rightousness trying to tell me what I truly do or don’t know deep down in my heart as if you have first hand knowledge? Don’t want any arrogance from me then don’t give me any in the first place.

It’s funny that you compare us to smokers, drug addicts and drunks because that’s exactly what I compare Christians and other believers to. You folks can’t handle the idea of reality without some old man in the sky handing out wishes and moving things along by some grand plan so you lean on this crutch of religion the same way a drunk leans on the bottle to make him forget his troubles; the same way a smoker lights up to alleviate stress or a drug user shoots up to escape the pain of reality. Like the die-hard addicts you folks can’t even see how it’s damaging you even when other’s tell you to your face. Personally, I think my version is closer to the truth.

I’ve read the Bible, front to back, over 4 times. I keep one handy both in book form and on my computer as a reference source when people like you attempt to show me the error of my ways. As an atheist I probably have read and study the Bible more than any one Christian who isn’t a priest or pastor or the like and probably more than a lot of them as well. You mistakenly assume that because I don’t believe I haven’t read your book and you’re wrong. Try again. I don’t hate God because I can’t hate something I don’t believe in. Your platitudes about what God is like and what he wants sure do sound nice, but they’re nothing more than pipe dreams from the hopelessly deluded.

Hopefully my atheist remarks weren’t too “proud” for you, but it can be difficult not to talk back to someone in the same manner in which they speak to me.

sounds wonderful Les…but

There’s no amount of evidence I could show you that would convince you there is a God.  I’m glad you’ve actually read the Bible though…most people put down the Bible without even having read it…but I wonder if you’ve read the Bible with the intent to prove Christians wrong.  Believe that reading the Bible won’t do anything for you.  If you don’t want to believe…then you never will. It seems you have hardened your heart to the fact that God does exist…and the very simple proof of His existence is our existence. You prove there was a painter by a painting.  You prove there was a builder by a building…you don’t have to see them to know they exist.
If you believe all this came from nothing…prove it to me!  I believe God made this all…you believe nothing made this all.  I’d say you have more faith than I do in miracles. 

I compared you to smokers because you live in ignorance…not to say you’re not educated…but because “ignorance is bliss” and living in that denial is comfortable for you. Believing in God demands moral standards and you don’t want to live by His will because you’re like a child throwing a tantrum who wants it all your way.  Like the child that doesn’t get their way…they grow up rebellious and many times end up bums on the street.  The existance of God is not a intellectual debate…because like I said, there is plenty of evidence for God…it’s moral.  I’m not going to list all of the evidence because it would be useless anyways.  You don’t want to believe…and so you never will be able to until that day in which you stand before God and have to face His glory.  Believing is seeing…it’s not the other way around like this world would like you to think. 

I grew up thinking the Bible was just a book written by a bunch of intellectual philosophers that were trying to acheive some sort of Utopia or perfect society.  Even though I grew up in a Christian school…I was never really a dedicated Christian.  But…to make a long story short, once I started reading the Bible with an open mind, God spoke to me and revealed Himself in a way that all my doubts about the Bible were washed away.  You’re probably saying…hey that’s great, you only believe because you want to believe.  What reason do I have to make myself believe?  You’re not special because you like living in immorality and want to ignore God’s existence so you don’t have to feel guilty that you’ll be held accountable when you die.  Everyone loves sin…until they encounter the Lord.  You’ll never understand a Christian and all their talk, until you’ve been born of the Spirit.  It’s all mumbo jumbo and fairy tale like…until you can experience it.  Billions have experienced God personally…and I’ve gotten revelations from Him that only God could have given me…there was no room for coincidence at all.  Just as the theory of Gravity is now known as the Law of gravity because it follows the same pattern everytime…the theory of God’s existence follows the same pattern everytime and changes people in the same way all around the world.  The theory of evolution…never happens and doens’t follow any pattern, so it’ll never be known as a law.

If your Baptist church and the way you read your Bible haven’t brought you to the Lord…pray, with a believing heart that God will show himself to you.  Don’t pray with a heart that secretly says…“God, I love living immorally in ignorance…so please don’t reveal yourself to me so that I have to give up my wonderful lifestyle”

I was in doubt a very long time…but when I finally gave my heart to God, He showed up.  I would not even take 2 seconds to try to preach to you if He hasn’t shown me that He’s real.  I’m definitely not one to conform to anyone’s subjective reality and the thought of hell as punishment never phased me…I could care less if their is some old man in the sky watching over me.  I was not scared into believing.  I was exactly like you, but I never went around as a proud atheist claiming that I knew the real truth and all Christians are just deluded living in fantasy.

You’ve got Christians all wrong…at least the one’s who really have Jesus in their heart.  We don’t have a hope simply because we will have the reward of heaven…but because He gives me the power to live morally and to have unending joy in my heart.

I’d love for you to be able to experience the love of Jesus in your heart…but if you don’t want it, that’s kewl.  You’ve got your free will and I’m not going to insist you live for God.  But I’ll just leave you with this thought.  When you die…or right before you die, when I’m sure you’ll do all that you can to ask God for forgiveness, but if you don’t…will you be 110% sure there is no God?  If there is even .00000000000000000000001% chance that there is a God…once you stand before Him, it will be too late to beg for forgiveness.  You’re chance is now.  I understand that you’re not ready for it…but you can’t run forever.  If you honestly can say you don’t know in your heart that there is a God…then He may have hardened your heart to the point of no return, as it says in the Bible He will do if you reject him continually.  I surely hope not…and I sure hope that you haven’t committed the unpardonable sin. 

Instead of simply believing there is no God…I would put my life work in proving there isn’t.  Do all that you can to prove there was no Jesus…find some scientific evidence for evolution(because there isn’t a bit of it, yet)...save all us Christians from our delusions so that we may go back to our “happy” lives of sexual immorality among other wordly desires.  Do something for your cause…more than just bashing Christians on some weak website!!

I still love ya champ…not because I have to as a Christian, but because I know you’re searching and I’ve been there…I’ve been pissed at God before and frustrated that He wouldn’t do things my way…but when you allow Him to run His show His way…he’ll use you in a great way.

Take care bro,

Justin

sounds wonderful Les…but There’s no amount of evidence I could show you that would convince you there is a God.

Yet you still go on to offer up a simplistic explanation. Amazing.

I’m glad you’ve actually read the Bible though…most people put down the Bible without even having read it…but I wonder if you’ve read the Bible with the intent to prove Christians wrong.

You’re making a number of arrogant assumptions which, had you read my response carefully, you’d probably already be able to tell are wrong. You assume I read the Bible “with the intent to prove Christians wrong.“ No, I read it because I was a devout Baptist and was considering getting more involved with the church. Possibly going as far as becoming a pastor myself. My first complete read-through of the Bible took place at the height of my belief as a Baptist. The last thing I was doing was looking to “prove Christians wrong” because I was one myself. My second full reading of the Bible took place not too long after the first because I was trying to undue the damage the first reading had done to my faith. I was certain that I had mis-read something or had just not interpreted things properly and that a second reading would set everything right once again. Instead, it just disillusioned me even further.

Believe that reading the Bible won’t do anything for you.

I have no idea what that sentence means. I’m assuming it doesn’t mean what it appears to mean.

If you don’t want to believe…then you never will.

I agree with that statement. The problem with it was that at the time I first read the Bible I not only wanted to believe, but I did believe. Deeply and passionately and with all my heart. My belief was destroyed by reading the Bible in full. If I had only stuck to the bits the pastor of my church was always going over I’d probably still be a happy Christian to this day. Knowledge can be a very damaging thing to one’s faith. So stop assuming that my reading of the Bible was motivated by a desire to “prove Christians wrong” as it wasn’t. It was motived by a desire to strengthened my faith and develop a deeper understanding and appreciation for my chosen religion. The fact remains that it had the opposite effect. I wasn’t always an atheist so stop assuming that is the case in your argument.

It seems you have hardened your heart to the fact that God does exist…and the very simple proof of His existence is our existence.

God’s existence isn’t a fact. If it were there would be no need for faith. Our existence isn’t necessarily proof of a God or Gods. A lot of people have invented a wide range of equally probable and fantastic explanations for why we exist that require as much faith as belief in some form of Deity does. The Raelians, for example, believe we are the creation of space traveling aliens with advanced knowledge of DNA manipulation and genetics and that we were created in the alien’s image. From where I’m standing that’s just as possible an explanation as the idea that there’s some guy who has the ability to cause all of existence to happen simply because he wants it to. Why should I buy into your nutball idea over the Raelian’s nutball idea?

You prove there was a painter by a painting.  You prove there was a builder by a building…you don’t have to see them to know they exist.

Those are reasonable assumptions based on past experience, but that doesn’t always mean they are correct assumptions. Elephants and computers have “created” paintings that most folks wouldn’t be able to tell apart from something a legitimate human painter had created. It also helps that you can often track down who the builder or the painter was and verify their existence regardless of the existence of any of their paintings or buildings. You can’t do that with God. Again, the difference between faith and knowledge. As proofs, these are weak.

If you believe all this came from nothing…prove it to me!  I believe God made this all…you believe nothing made this all.  I’d say you have more faith than I do in miracles.

I’ve made no claims and you again show your arrogance by attempting to tell me what I believe. Proper critical thinking dictates that the burden of proof is on the person making the claims. The more incredible the claim the heavier the burden. You’re the one claiming God created everything so you’re the one with the burden of proof. I’ve never claimed that “nothing made this all.“ You’re assuming, again, that that’s what I think. The statement itself is self-contradictory and as such I wouldn’t say such a thing. “Nothing” can’t possibly create anything. I don’t believe in the concept of miracles and my thoughts on how things came to be do not require faith in miracles to be true.

I compared you to smokers because you live in ignorance…not to say you’re not educated…but because “ignorance is bliss” and living in that denial is comfortable for you.

Does your arrogance know no bounds? You again presume to tell me what I think and how I feel. The reality is that not believing in a God or Gods does not bring any comfort at all. Especially at times of grief such as when a close friend or family member dies. Religious people often take comfort in the idea that they will some day see their loved one again. Atheists don’t believe that to be true so there is no comfort to be gained from our viewpoint.

Your statement here is logically inconsistent. You claim that I am ignorant of God, and thus happy, but that I am also in denial of God. I can’t deny something I am ignorant of. Your arguments so far have a bad habit of being inconsistent.

Believing in God demands moral standards and you don’t want to live by His will because you’re like a child throwing a tantrum who wants it all your way.

Again with the arrogance in presuming to know what I want. You also seem to imply that I have no moral standards because I do not believe in a God or Gods. I would argue that I have higher moral standards than many Christians I know and I don’t need a supernatural being to dictate them to me or the threat of damnation to motivate me to follow them. I trust someone who is doing something because he wants to over someone who does something because they feel some God expects them to or they’ll go to hell for it.

Like the child that doesn’t get their way…they grow up rebellious and many times end up bums on the street.

Well, this apartment isn’t exactly the Ritz, but it’s hardly a gutter either. I’d say I’m doing pretty well for myself and my family despite my lack of faith. Seems faith in God isn’t necessary to avoid becoming a bum in the street.

The existance of God is not a intellectual debate…

Not with the way you debate it, that’s for sure.

because like I said, there is plenty of evidence for God…it’s moral.

This statement makes absolutely no sense. Especially when followed with…

I’m not going to list all of the evidence because it would be useless anyways.

If this is true then why did you bother listing any of it at all previously? Or have you forgotten the words of a mere paragraph or so ago?

You don’t want to believe…and so you never will be able to until that day in which you stand before God and have to face His glory.

Once again with arrogantly telling me what I want to believe. You don’t know how much I may or may not want to believe. What basis do you have to claim that I don’t want to believe? My lack of belief now doesn’t change the fact that at one time I had all the belief in the world.

Believing is seeing…it’s not the other way around like this world would like you to think.

If the above were true then I never would have lost my faith at a time when I was at the height of it. From my experience belief alone isn’t enough to make something true. Again you’re trying to tell me what I think.

I grew up thinking the Bible was just a book written by a bunch of intellectual philosophers that were trying to acheive some sort of Utopia or perfect society.  Even though I grew up in a Christian school…I was never really a dedicated Christian.  But…to make a long story short, once I started reading the Bible with an open mind, God spoke to me and revealed Himself in a way that all my doubts about the Bible were washed away.

My mind was wide open when I first read the Bible. My mind is still wide open to anything that would give me some reason to believe in any of the hundreds of thousands of religions in this world. Having an open mind led me away from faith in God. God didn’t speak to me when I was reading the Bible with an open mind and the logical conclusion is because he doesn’t exist to do so. I’ve not heard a peep out of him yet, until I do I’ve got no reason to believe.

You’re probably saying…hey that’s great, you only believe because you want to believe.

Bad assumption. Truth be told I think you believe because you get some sense of community and belonging and acceptance from it. That’s purely speculation on my part, however, and I admit that I have no real clue why you believe. Everyone has different reasons for it and some of them even hold some logic to them. Why people believe is not something that really concerns me. I accept the idea that people have their reasons and move on with my life.

What reason do I have to make myself believe?

I don’t know. Why don’t you tell us?

You’re not special because you like living in immorality and want to ignore God’s existence so you don’t have to feel guilty that you’ll be held accountable when you die.  Everyone loves sin…until they encounter the Lord.

You’re once again assuming that I am living in immorality and that I am “ignoring God’s existence.“ I would again argue that I live a more moral life than many Christians, but you have no way of knowing that either way. I hold myself accountable for my actions, something more people should do.

You’ll never understand a Christian and all their talk, until you’ve been born of the Spirit.  It’s all mumbo jumbo and fairy tale like…until you can experience it.

Been there, done that, was one. I understand, I just don’t agree. You keep forgetting you’re talking to an ex-Christian. Don’t try to tell me what I understand if you aren’t familiar with my past experiences.

Billions have experienced God personally…and I’ve gotten revelations from Him that only God could have given me…there was no room for coincidence at all.

Billions also believe they’ve been abducted by aliens and had probes shoved up their asses. Billions, myself included, spent their early years believing in a man called Santa Claus who brought presents every Christmas to all the children who behaved and were good. Billions believe that ghosts exist, that people can read their minds, and that the Men In Black are responsible for erasing their memories. Billions “knew” the Earth was flat and anything suggesting otherwise was patently ludicrous and grounds for being burned at a stake.

Billions have been utterly and completely wrong about a lot of things. Billions of people believing in something doesn’t make it true.

Just as the theory of Gravity is now known as the Law of gravity because it follows the same pattern everytime…the theory of God’s existence follows the same pattern everytime and changes people in the same way all around the world.

Oops! Your ignorance of scientific philosophy is showing. The assumption that scientific theories eventually become scientific laws once they have been “proven” is an inaccurate description. We do have a Law of Gravity, but there aren’t any satisfying theories about gravity even today. Allow me to elaborate:

Scientific Laws are generalizations about what has happened, from which we can generalize about what we expect to happen. They pertain to observational data. The ability of the ancients to predict eclipses had nothing to do with whether they knew just how they happened; they had a law but not a theory.

Theories are explanations of observations (or of laws). The fact that we have a pretty good understanding of how stars explode doesn’t necessarily mean we could predict the next supernova; we have a theory but not a law.

Gravity was a poor choice for comparison. It also doesn’t help that your claim that “God’s existence follows the same pattern every time and changes people in the same way all around the world” doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. If this were true then why are there so many different religions? For that matter, why are there so many different Christian denominations? Over 34,000 by the last count of the World Christian Encyclopedia. Clearly if God does exist he doesn’t change people in the same way all around the world.

The theory of evolution…never happens and doesn’t follow any pattern, so it’ll never be known as a law.

This statement not only shows an amazing ignorance of literally thousands of scientific papers that have been published over the years that advance the theory of evolution in many ways, but it also demonstrates an astounding ignorance of the difference between theories and laws. Perhaps you should study up on science philosophy before making such definitive claims about evolution and if it’ll ever be considered a “law.“

If your Baptist church and the way you read your Bible haven’t brought you to the Lord…pray, with a believing heart that God will show himself to you.  Don’t pray with a heart that secretly says…“God, I love living immorally in ignorance…so please don’t reveal yourself to me so that I have to give up my wonderful lifestyle”

Again you presume to know what I have done in my search for God and how I have prayed to him in the past. You assume that simply because I have lost my faith that I must have “done something wrong” and I’d really appreciate it if you’d stop making those assumptions.

I was in doubt a very long time…but when I finally gave my heart to God, He showed up.  I would not even take 2 seconds to try to preach to you if He hasn’t shown me that He’s real.

I’ve gotten the same argument from the UFO nuts.

I’m definitely not one to conform to anyone’s subjective reality and the thought of hell as punishment never phased me…I could care less if their is some old man in the sky watching over me.  I was not scared into believing.  I was exactly like you, but I never went around as a proud atheist claiming that I knew the real truth and all Christians are just deluded living in fantasy.

Based on this conversation I would tend to think you were never “exactly like” me. I don’t claim to know the “real truth”, I just call it like I see it. I’ve never tried to pass my opinion off as facts.

You’ve got Christians all wrong…at least the one’s who really have Jesus in their heart.  We don’t have a hope simply because we will have the reward of heaven…but because He gives me the power to live morally and to have unending joy in my heart.

Is English not your primary language? That second sentence probably doesn’t mean what it appears to mean. It’s entirely possible I have “got Christians all wrong,“ but I seriously doubt it at this point.

I’d love for you to be able to experience the love of Jesus in your heart…but if you don’t want it, that’s kewl.

There was a time when that was all I wanted. I can’t be loved by something that doesn’t exist.

You’ve got your free will and I’m not going to insist you live for God.  But I’ll just leave you with this thought.  When you die…or right before you die, when I’m sure you’ll do all that you can to ask God for forgiveness, but if you don’t…will you be 110% sure there is no God?

Again you presume to know what I will do on my death bed. Not only do you seem to think you know my history, but now you see my future. And you call me arrogant?

I can’t say what I will believe when death comes. Back when I was a true believer I never thought I’d end up as an atheist some day. I do try to keep an open mind about all things and if some new experience should lead me back to faith in a God or Gods then that’s where I’ll find myself. Until that experience occurs, however, I don’t foresee any radical changes in my viewpoint.

If there is even .00000000000000000000001% chance that there is a God…once you stand before Him, it will be too late to beg for forgiveness.

By the rules as laid down by your Bible that may be true. Have you considered the idea that perhaps there is a God, but the Christian theology has gotten it wrong as to what the rules are? Perhaps if there is a God he’ll be more accepting of those of us who tried to follow what we believed was right regardless of the problems it may have caused us. At this point, however, I don’t feel I have anything to worry about.

You’re chance is now.  I understand that you’re not ready for it…but you can’t run forever.

It’s clear you understand very little about me.

If you honestly can say you don’t know in your heart that there is a God…then He may have hardened your heart to the point of no return, as it says in the Bible He will do if you reject him continually.  I surely hope not…and I sure hope that you haven’t committed the unpardonable sin.

Depends on your definition of “unpardonable sin.“ If you mean the Catholic definition of it then I committed that one awhile ago. Oops. Guess I’m fucked now.

Instead of simply believing there is no God…I would put my life work in proving there isn’t.

You can’t prove a negative. Not possible. And it’s not that I believe there is no God, it’s that I don’t have any belief that there is. It’s a subtle, but important difference.

Do all that you can to prove there was no Jesus…find some scientific evidence for evolution(because there isn’t a bit of it, yet)...

The only historical records mentioning Jesus are in the Bible which is dubious as a historical record at best. You’re the one claiming he did exist, burden of proof is on you.

As for evolution I can point you toward all manner of research papers giving all manner of evidence in support of the theory, but it won’t do any good if you don’t want to believe it. Wait, where have I heard that before? Difference is: I’ve read your Bible, have you read any papers on evolution?

save all us Christians from our delusions so that we may go back to our “happy” lives of sexual immorality among other wordly desires.

I have no desire to save Christians from their delusions. Especially if they’ll just use it as an excuse to act immoral. Not that being a Christian has stopped most of them from acting immoral anyway.

Do something for your cause…more than just bashing Christians on some weak website!!

I do do something for my cause, but you wouldn’t know about that because you’ve not bothered to ask. And I get to bash Christians on my “weak” website. I get the best of both worlds!

Can’t be too weak, you keep coming back for more.

I still love ya champ…not because I have to as a Christian, but because I know you’re searching and I’ve been there…I’ve been pissed at God before and frustrated that He wouldn’t do things my way…but when you allow Him to run His show His way…he’ll use you in a great way.

I’m glad you love me. It’s a wonderful sentiment. That doesn’t mean you understand me or know what I think or feel or have or haven’t done. I tried letting God show me “His way” and God had nothing to say. But then I can’t expect a reply from something that doesn’t exist.

Okay Les…I don’t know you.

Wow…this is your website?  I must say…you’ve got a wonderful website here and I’m glad you are doing so many great things for your cause.  What is your cause by the way?  Is it to enlighten Christians and other theists that you have all the answers and know beyond all doubt there is no God?  Is it to find some atheist friends since you’re a minority on this issue?  You couldn’t have just made this website because you want more athiests to give you a reason not to believe could you?

I’m curious to know what you think about our origins.  I’ve read a lot about evolution, but I’d like to know what you’ve learned about it that could have possibly changed your mind about God.  If the Big Bang and evolution didn’t do it…what did?

I didn’t really offer any evidence for the existence of God…as I said I wouldn’t before…as I’m sure you’ve probably heard it all anyways…so my “simplistic” explanation was not really an explanation by any means.

I never said the painter had to be human…just that the existence of a painting which obviously took some type of intelligence would mean there would have to be a painter.  This world is pretty obviously designed by some intelligence…wouldn’t you agree? Seems like you do…but you just can’t figure out who or what that entity is.  I’ve experienced the supernatural…so know beyond any doubt there is a God…but I’m really curious and what drives an atheist to be so doubtful…if not for the reasons I already said.

I often wonder with all the asteroids and huge meteorites flying around in space, colliding with other planets…some just wizzing by our planet that are big enough to destroy the whole planet…who’s protecting us from them?

There may be many probable explanations to our existence…but you know that the only one’s that can be argued logically are evolution and creation.  So, no need to bring up the Raelians…we all know they’re quacks. 

Atheism is the new religion(not new like yesterday..but newer)...Judaism/Christianity was proven when Christ walked the earth.  Prophecy was fullfilled…so I believe the burden of proof is on you. All the major religions believe in Jesus…not just Christians.  Have you read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel?  He was an atheist, and when his wife turned to Christianity he was so pissed that she had changed her ways that he went on a 2 year investigation to destroy the credibility of Christ once and for all…to save his marriage.  When he was through with his investigation, the evidence was overwhelming that Christ did exist and we’re not all deluded.  He converted and is now a Christian apologist.

You said the burden of proof is on me because you can’t disprove the existence of God.  Well I can’t disprove the Big Bang theory either. You prove the Big Bang happened…and I’ll prove God created the earth. Both theories are religious…yet there is more evidence for creation.  What strong evidence do you have for evolution? 

If you wanna bring me all the strong evidence you have for evolution and the Big Bang theory that isn’t religious, but scientific…I’ll spend time giving you scientific evidence on creation and God.  Since Atheism is in the minority and the new religion of choice…maybe you could go first?

Sorry for the assumptions and arrogance…I just can’t fathom how anyone can read the Bible with an open heart and not find God.  It happened for me…and I guess I just assumed the scripture that says “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” works for everyone.

I don’t really have the time to respond as quickly as I have this weekend…but I will come back to check what you have written…and offer a response when I can. 

Thank you for your time…I will pray for you that God will show Himself to you in such a way that will have you believe without any doubt as He has done for me. 

p.s. I realize there may be grammar errors or even spelling errors…but hopefully you can go beyond that and realize what I’m trying to say by the context…I don’t have as much time on my hands to go through all I wrote and fix the grammatical errors.  This isn’t my life.  I came to this site to see what you had to say about Hovind…and was sad to see what was going on, so I figured I’d write.  So forgive me if I make mistakes…the topic of the discussion is the importance not the minor details.

I found a couple mistakes already by going over it real quick…I hope you don’t condemn me for it. :D

Okay Les…I don’t know you.

Wow…this is your website?

A good start, but I would think the answer to the second question would be obvious by now. Especially considering my name is on the left hand side of this page.

I must say…you’ve got a wonderful website here and I’m glad you are doing so many great things for your cause.  What is your cause by the way?  Is it to enlighten Christians and other theists that you have all the answers and know beyond all doubt there is no God?

Once again allow me to repeat: I have

never said

that I have all the answers nor that I know beyond all doubt there is no God or Gods. I also don’t know beyond a doubt that there aren’t Pink Flying Unicorns some place in the universe. Nor do I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there aren’t Diminutive Underwear Trolls Of A Curiously Blue Tint living inside my dresser. These are all possibilities that may have somehow escaped my attention.

Based on the evidence I have on hand for all of these things, however, I have no serious reason to believe in the existence of any of them.

What is my cause? My cause is to promote critical thinking skills and a little more skepticism of outrageous claims. While religion and belief are topics I talk about on my site often, it’s not the sole purpose of this site and my goal isn’t necessarily to convert anyone. I’d be happy if more folks just put forth a little more thought about the topics covered before making a decision on it. I, personally, don’t care what religious beliefs people hold as long as they don’t use them as an excuse not to think or take responsibility for their actions. If your religion makes you happy and helps you get through the day without killing someone then more power to you.

Is it to find some atheist friends since you’re a minority on this issue?

I already have plenty of atheist friends. Along with a plethora of Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, Buddhist, Pagan, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto and a variety of other people with differing religious beliefs. Most folks who know me personally think I’m a fairly decent fellow and I can get along with just about anyone I interact with.

You couldn’t have just made this website because you want more atheists to give you a reason not to believe could you?

I don’t need other atheists to give me a reason not to believe. I already have all the reasons not to believe from my own past experiences and search for the truth. I don’t have a need to seek validation of my viewpoint from others. Some folks agree with me completely, some agree with me partially, some totally disagree with me. How popular my view may or may not be is not a factor in my decision to have that view. I am an atheist because at this point in time it is the viewpoint that seems the most likely to be true based on what I know and what I have experienced. As I go through life and I gain new knowledge and new experiences my stance may change. I went from being a Baptist to being an atheist once before so there’s no reason to think I couldn’t go on to become, say, a Zoroastrian or an Ásatrú. I don’t see that happening anytime soon, but I won’t say that it couldn’t.

I’m curious to know what you think about our origins.  I’ve read a lot about evolution, but I’d like to know what you’ve learned about it that could have possibly changed your mind about God.  If the Big Bang and evolution didn’t do it…what did?

Nothing about evolution or the big bang theory changed my mind about God. I’m not sure what makes you think those two theories are in some way directly responsible for my loss of faith. I’ve already told you that the action most directly responsible for my loss of faith was the in-depth study of the Bible I undertook. In seeking greater understanding of the Bible I undermined the basis of my faith and it only got worse the more I studied.

As for our origins, I currently accept the theory of evolution as the most likely explanation for the origin of our species based on the research supporting it. In terms of the cosmos itself I’m personally leaning toward some of the theories being put forth by Stephen Hawkings which are somewhat different from the traditional big bang theory. In all honesty, how we got here isn’t a matter that worries me all that much and isn’t a factor in my religious stance.

I didn’t really offer any evidence for the existence of God…as I said I wouldn’t before…as I’m sure you’ve probably heard it all anyways…so my “simplistic” explanation was not really an explanation by any means.

It was a point I’ve had people make to me many times before. “God exists because we exist.“ The implication being that all things must have a creator therefor there must be a God. Of course believers rarely seem to take that argument to the next logical step which would be: If all things must have a creator, then who created God? And who created God’s God? Theists often want to claim that no one created God because God has always existed. Of course that destroys the logic behind their assertion that “all things have a creator.“ Logically, if God doesn’t need a creator then perhaps the universe or mankind didn’t need one either. The point remains that our existence isn’t a reasonable proof of anything other than we exist. And there’s some philosophers I know who’d even debate that point with you as well.

I never said the painter had to be human…just that the existence of a painting which obviously took some type of intelligence would mean there would have to be a painter.

I don’t think I’d consider a computer, however artistic it may happen to be, to be much of any kind of intelligence. Some computer generated art is done through an application of total randomness which would be akin to seeing order in what was actually a chaotic process. That doesn’t take any kind of intelligence to create.

This world is pretty obviously designed by some intelligence…wouldn’t you agree? Seems like you do…but you just can’t figure out who or what that entity is.

No, I wouldn’t agree. If this world is the best God can manage then he’s pretty piss-poor in the design department if you want my opinion on the matter. I’m just a piddly little human and I can think of a dozen things off top of my head that would be a vast improvement over the world as it stands now. As an example of “intelligent design” the world would get at best a D-. If anything the world and the state it is in is one of the more damning arguments against the idea of a God or Gods in my view.

I’ve experienced the supernatural…so know beyond any doubt there is a God…

And I can introduce you to someone who has personally been abducted by aliens and believes he has the implant to prove it too. He also knows beyond a doubt that aliens exist in much the same way that you know that God exists. I have as much reason to believe him as I do you, more so perhaps because he’s shown me his supposed “implant.“ This person seems relatively normal in most other respects.

but I’m really curious and what drives an atheist to be so doubtful…if not for the reasons I already said.

If those two reasons are the only ones you can think of for an atheist to doubt then you need to study up more. I don’t know any atheists who gave up their belief simply because they were exposed to the idea of evolution or the big bang theory.

I can’t speak for all atheists and I’ve already listed my reasons. In my case a desire to know the truth is part of why I doubt. You can’t apply my reasons to all atheists however. I am representative of only myself.

I often wonder with all the asteroids and huge meteorites flying around in space, colliding with other planets…some just wizzing by our planet that are big enough to destroy the whole planet…who’s protecting us from them?

No one is. Space is ridiculously huge and there’s plenty of room for planet killer asteroids to zoom around for eons without ever hitting anything. It’s difficult for the mind to get to grips with just how much room there is out there. Even as such the Earth is constantly under bombardment by all manner of meteorites and other debris a lot of which burns up in the atmosphere, but a lot of which also strikes the surface. Most of it you never hear about because it falls harmlessly in the ocean. Statistically speaking there’s really no surprise in the idea that the planet hasn’t been decimated by a planet killer asteroid yet. Not that it hasn’t happened in the past, it has.

There may be many probable explanations to our existence…but you know that the only one’s that can be argued logically are evolution and creation.  So, no need to bring up the Raelians…we all know they’re quacks.

Actually, any stance can be argued logically. A valid logical argument doesn’t have to be true and even a logical argument with a false premise can arrive at a correct conclusion. Logic in and of itself is no guarantee of correctness or accuracy. The Concise Oxford English Dictionary defines logic as “the science of reasoning, proof, thinking, or inference.“ Logic will let you analyze an argument or a piece of reasoning, and work out whether it is likely to be correct or not. It’s a tool, but like any tool it can be misused.

As for the Raelians, their ideas are no more outrageous than any other religion from where I’m standing. I have as much reason to believe them as I do you. Which is to say, none.

Atheism is the new religion(not new like yesterday..but newer)...

Your basis for this statement is… what exactly?

Atheism pre-dates Christianity. As long as there have been religions there have been those who don’t believe in them.

Atheism, by definition, is not a religion. We don’t have temples, mosques or churches. We don’t have pre-ordained rules handed down from some authority figure, real or imagined, on high. We don’t have rituals or customs or any of the other trappings that constitute a religion. Atheism is simply an absence of belief in the existence of gods. The only thing you can infer about any one particular atheist is don’t we don’t have a belief in the existence of a God or Gods. Everything else about a particular atheist (whether or not they consider evolution to be true, whether or not they wear underwear, etc.) is entirely up in the air.

Judaism/Christianity was proven when Christ walked the earth.

Was it now? This is news to me. I apparently missed that news bulletin.

Prophecy was fullfilled…so I believe the burden of proof is on you.

Nope, I’m not the one claiming that prophecy was fulfilled or that Christianity was proven when Christ walked on the Earth or that Christ even existed. These are your claims which places the burden of proof on you. I have only said that I do not believe those claims to be true.

Trying to shift the burden of proof is a special case of the logical fallacy of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. In a logical argument the burden of proof is always on the person asserting something.

All the major religions believe in Jesus…not just Christians.

And your basis for that statement is… what exactly? Perhaps you need to brush up a little on your religions and what they believe. Your claim is especially ironic in light of the fact that the Jews, from whom Christians “borrowed” the basis for their religion, specifically

do not

believe in Jesus as the Messiah. For an explanation as to why you might want to read this and perhaps this as well.

Clearly not all major religions believe in Jesus, but if you wish to maintain that assertion then I await your evidence to the contrary.

Have you read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel?

Yes, I have. I found it less than impressive and amazingly one-sided. It wasn’t much more than a rehash of Josh McDowell’s Evidence That Demands A Verdict, which I’ve also read. A good critique of The Case for Christ can be found here.

He was an atheist, and when his wife turned to Christianity he was so pissed that she had changed her ways that he went on a 2 year investigation to destroy the credibility of Christ once and for all…to save his marriage.  When he was through with his investigation, the evidence was overwhelming that Christ did exist and we’re not all deluded.  He converted and is now a Christian apologist.

Like I said, I read the book and found it less than impressive. Not that it matters much, the fact that a former atheist became a Christian apologist is no more a proof in the reality of a God or Gods than my being a former Baptist and becoming an atheist is proof that there isn’t. Some folks switch from one religion to another. Some folks have gone back and forth between belief and unbelief many times in their lives. All of that doesn’t prove anything other than people can change their minds on what they believe in.

You said the burden of proof is on me because you can’t disprove the existence of God.  Well I can’t disprove the Big Bang theory either. You prove the Big Bang happened…and I’ll prove God created the earth.

No, I said the burden of proof was on you because you were the one making the assertion. I also said that you can’t prove a negative.

I never claimed that the Big Bang happened. Theories I’ve followed lately would seem to indicate that what may have happened wasn’t really a Big Bang as described by the classic theory, but I don’t really hold an opinion one way or the other about if it happened or not. Whether you believe the Big Bang happened or not is of no real concern to me. If you feel you can prove God created the Earth I am willing to listen to whatever evidence you’d like to provide to back up that claim, but trying to engage me in tit-for-tat explanations won’t accomplish much in changing my mind.

Both theories are religious…

Not true.

yet there is more evidence for creation.

So you claim. Need I go over the rules of making assertions once more?

What strong evidence do you have for evolution?

It seems to me you are confusing your theories. The Big Bang deals with cosmology whereas Evolution is a biological theory. They are not one and the same, as you seem to be implying, but two separate and distinct areas of knowledge. The theory of evolution is the binding principle behind almost all biological research done today and many discoveries would not have been possible without it.

Like all theories, both the Big Bang and Evolution are undergoing constant revision as new knowledge is brought to light by ongoing research and experimentation. Science is different from religion mainly because in Science there is no dogma or absolute truths. There is only greater understanding. If research and experiments show that a particular theory or law, or an aspect thereof, does not bear out as it predicts it should then the theory or law must be scrapped and a new hypothesis is formed.

As for strong evidence in support of one or the other, well, if I actually took the time to list of links to various scientific papers would you actually bother to read them? I’m sure you could find them yourself, they’re not hard to locate as just about any major University makes them available.

If you wanna bring me all the strong evidence you have for evolution and the Big Bang theory that isn’t religious, but scientific…

There isn’t any evidence for evolution or the big bang which is religious in nature. Your statement here makes no sense.

I’ll spend time giving you scientific evidence on creation and God.

Unless you’ve got more than the popular books written by Christian Apologists (many of which I’ve already read) to offer then this would be a fairly pointless exercise. I tend to follow the field of science pretty closely and I’ve yet to see anyone offer up legitimate scientific evidence of God.

Since Atheism is in the minority and the new religion of choice…maybe you could go first?

Atheism isn’t a new religion of any kind and it couldn’t logically be both a “minority” and a “religion of choice” as the latter implies popularity. I am making no claims so I have nothing to “go first” on. You came to my website to try and tell me I had it all wrong, remember? Why should I be expected to prove anything to you when you’re the one making all the claims?

Sorry for the assumptions and arrogance…I just can’t fathom how anyone can read the Bible with an open heart and not find God.

Apology accepted. You should study up on human nature a little more. The the fact that two people with similar experiences can come out of it with totally different opinions is well established. There’s nothing surprising about that as it’s part of being human.

It happened for me…and I guess I just assumed the scripture that says “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” works for everyone.

If that’s all it took then there’s no real reason Christianity shouldn’t be the only religion in the world, but even among Christians there is no consensus on what being a Christian means.

I don’t really have the time to respond as quickly as I have this weekend…but I will come back to check what you have written…and offer a response when I can. 

Thank you for your time…I will pray for you that God will show Himself to you in such a way that will have you believe without any doubt as He has done for me.

I appreciate the sentiment. You join a long list of others who are praying for me. So far to little effect, but there’s no harm in trying I suppose.

p.s. I realize there may be grammar errors or even spelling errors…but hopefully you can go beyond that and realize what I’m trying to say by the context…I don’t have as much time on my hands to go through all I wrote and fix the grammatical errors.  This isn’t my life.  I came to this site to see what you had to say about Hovind…and was sad to see what was going on, so I figured I’d write.  So forgive me if I make mistakes…the topic of the discussion is the importance not the minor details. 

I’ve tried to only be critical of statements that didn’t make any sense. I’m not fixating on spelling and grammar. I don’t claim to be an expect at either one of those myself.

Hey Les…

I don’t have the time to comment on your response just now…but I get a lot of my information from scientists such as Ken Ham and Dr. Hovind.

Their evidence is pretty compelling for me…but maybe you can open my mind and point out their flaws? 

http://www.answersingenesis.org
http://www.drdino.com
http://www.icr.org

I haven’t seen any good evidence for evolution yet…what info do you have on it?

The Big Bang is evolutionary theorists’ explanation of our origins, is it not?  They are different theories…but they do go together. 

Anyways..thanx for your responses.

You made a good point about people who say they’ve been abducted by aliens…I can see why it’s so hard to believe my claim. 

There will never be any definite proof of God’s existance, until we meet Him…and that’s why it takes faith, like you said…but I know what I experienced, and it is part of my faith to try to bring others to what I consider truth.  I know how it’s changed my life…and the lives of many of my close friends, and that’s really all I can say I’m absolutely sure of.  I don’t blindly believe though…I’ve searched for evidence and am convinced from what I’ve found. 

But I’ll do more scientific research and keep you posted on what I discover for the evidence of God.  I hope you’ll keep me posted if you do encounter God…that’ll be an amazing testimony.

God Bless Les

one more thing I keep forgetting to ask…

What in the Bible did you discover that made you change your mind?

and…have you never experienced the gifts of the Spirit?  Have you never been able to give prophecy, speak in tongues or known anyone that could do that?  How you ever had any one give prophecy over your life…and tell you things that only you would know?

A member of my family died about 4-5 months ago and the same night he died…I woke up in the middle of the night with a peculiar desire to pray for someone related to me because they were about to die and wasn’t exactly right with God.  The only person I thought it could be was my aunt who has been suffering from a tumor for over a year now and is paralyzed…but when I prayed, I think I remember praying as if it was for a male…and I didn’t really have a strong feeling of who the person was, just that they were related to me.  So…as odd as it was(I had only rededicated my life to the Lord a few months before then)...I prayed for this person, that God would see their heart and forgive him for he knew not what he has done.  I’ve never had such a peculiar reason to pray for anyone like that…especially to have the need wake me up in the middle of the night.

Anyways…I went back to sleep and didn’t think much about it after that.  In fact I forgot about it until I got home the next day after school and my dad told me that an uncle of mine that lived in India, whom I’ve only met like 2 times…died.  I didn’t think much about it because I didn’t know him that well…so it didn’t really grieve me or anything, but then I suddenly remembered the prayer that I prayed in the middle of the night.  I asked my dad what time he died…just to see if it was around the same time I prayed.  He said he died around 1p.m.  Which…even though I prayed around 4a.m. was pretty close considering it was such an odd prayer at an odd time.  But then I realized something…I asked him if that was 1 o’clock in India or here.  He said in India.  I asked him what time would that have been over here…and he said about 4a.m.  Now…I’m not possitive what time I woke up in the middle of the night, because I was only half awake…but it somewhere around that time.  If there’s no God…I really have trouble understanding what the heck caused me to wake up in the middle of the night to pray, of all things, for someone who has lived a life in unbelief.  His brother…the uncle I’m much closer to who lives over here, is an evengelist that preaches to thousands on Hindus every year in India…and has been trying to reach out to his brother for the longest time, and I’m sure has prayed for him consistently, but he never really gave his life to the Lord…that know of. 

Before that day…I prayed for quite some time that God would give me something that I couldn’t explain naturally…something that would give me great faith and get rid of all, if not most of my unbelief…because I didn’t want to be a fool and follow a book, especially if it wasn’t truth.  I seem to have a real problem with conformity and if I’m gonna follow some rediculous rules…I must be convinced they are for my own good. 

Anyways, gotta stop there, but maybe you can help me figure out what that was all about.  I just can’t come up with any other reasonable explanation. 

Thanx again Les

I won’t break in here (much) since this seems to be a love fest between Justin and Les But I do want to reiterate something Les has already mentioned; Atheism is not a religion. From the Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd edition:

atheism - Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.
disbelieve 1. trans. Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of.
deny
1) To contradict or gainsay (anything stated or alleged); to declare to be untrue or untenable, or not what it is stated to be.
2) Logic. The opposite of affirm; to assert the contradictory of (a proposition).
3) To refuse to admit the truth of (a doctrine or tenet); to reject as untrue or unfounded; the opposite of assert or maintain.
4) To refuse to recognize or acknowledge (a person or thing) as having a certain character or certain claims; to disown, disavow, repudiate, renounce.

While we may not believe in a god or gods, we do not congregate together trying to think of ways to usurp christianity. I for one am happy to let people believe wht they want to believe…until they try to force everyone else to believe it too. Hence the reason I am strongly against Bush’s faith-based initiatives.

A woman I work with said to me back when the molestations of children in by catholic priests came to light (recently) that I must be so happy, as if I derived some great satisfaction from the troubles the church was facing. I told her that I was never happy when a child was raped but that I was also neither shocked or surprised since I remember reports of children being molested by priests as far back as my childhood. What was much more disturbing to me was how catholics rallied around their priests, men who have molested children.

I guess god really does work in mysterious ways.

Just to quickly respond to Eric…God knows why, but this website’s got me interested in what atheists believe…or I should say don’t believe…keeping me from my homework!

Catholocism has never been a Bible based religion.  I am against all catholocism as I know it and know the history of the catholic church well enough to know that it’s not God based but man based.  It’s just another pagan religion which disguises itself as Christianity to fit in to todays world…and focuses on man made traditions that will never come close to pleasing God.

I realize that atheism isn’t a religion, per se…when I call it a religion, I refer to the main doctrine as being evolution-which is definitely religious.  Was anyone there to document the Big Bang?  Can they test it?  Can you test macro-evolution?  All evolution does is look at micro-evolution which shouldn’t even be called evolution but a variation(which is a special characteristic designed by an intelligent creator so an organism can adapt to many different environments) and assume, hope, and pray that macro-evolution could be possible given the special ingredient of time..then they assume all the other forms of evolution, based on slight variations within a species.  All the missing links that have been proposed as evidence for evolution have all been exposed as hoaxes…there are no intermediate fossils in the well over a trillion fossils in collection. There’s no missing link…the whole chain is missing! I could go on with all kinds of evidence against evolution and even more evidence for a young earth which would make evolution impossible.  Carbon dating for one…only works up to about 3,000 years accurately…scientists say that the amount of carbon in the atmosphere would have equalized within 30,000 years…and equilibrium hasn’t even been met 1/3 of the way yet.  All the other dating methods give different answers on the same item being measured.  They’ve dated lava flow from volcanos that they know erupted less than 200 years ago at over a few million years old.  They’ve dated the skin of an animal at one age and the bone of the same animal at a totally different age…thousands of years apart.  They’ve dated living animals as being thousands of years old.  They don’t put this info on the front page of the news paper…obviously because the credibility of science would greatly be depreciated.  Scientists have to make a lot of assumptions on the initial amounts of elements at time zero. The 2nd law of thermodynamics shows that everything is winding down and this isn’t an infinite universe…the sun is loosing it’s energy, Jupiter is cooling off, the earth’s rotation is slowing down, the moon is moving away from the earth.  If you go back just a million years…at the current rate of erosion, the earth wouldn’t have been able to sustain any life at all.  At the current rate of population growth…we would have over 150,000 people per square inch of space on the planet…considering when evolution says humans evolved.  The big bang says that a dot the size of a period, spun faster and faster until it exploded…which created our universe(uni-single and verse-spoken sentence…God said “let there be!“) with the conservation of angular momentum….everything that broke off from that dot would be spinning the same direction the dot was spinning.  2 and possibly 3 planets in our solar system alone spin backwards…as well as a few moons around Jupiter.  Some moons travel backwards around their planets…Why?

Evolution does not only pertain to biology, by the way…as Les said.  The Big bang = cosmic evolution…the chart of elements had to have all evolved from hydrogen = chemical evolution…origin of stars and planets = stellar and planetary evolution…organic evolution = origin of life…and then finally macro-evolution, or what biology tends to push us to believe…given billions of years.

I’m not sure if you believe in evolution…but I would wonder what you believe in if not…it’s the only atheistic religion that the majority of atheists and even a few religious(catholics)people tend to adopt.

If you don’t even care what you’re doing on this planet and couldn’t care less about the origin of all this…then there’s no grounds for argument. “Ignorance is truly bliss”.

There’s actually a church that teaches “good” doctrine that athiests and many other people of other religions(including Christianity) tend to follow.  This church would be ideal.

The best trick the devil has played on many is getting them to believe there is no God, heaven, hell or Satan…no real reason why we’re here.  Don’t buy it.  If you haven’t found God with whatever chance you have given Him…try harder, you just gotta trust me on this one.  If you’ve read the Bible 10 times…read it again.  Get answers before you form your own conclusions on areas you think are questionable.  There isn’t one mistake in the Bible…provided you’re reading the translation that was taken from the original textus receptus.  If you have some modern version that’s been altered because the editors didn’t think it made sense to them…they may have ruined it.  The NIV is a good example of that.  Read the King James….if you find any faults…don’t throw it away, seek answers from educated theologians.  You may say…of course they’ll give you an answers that says there’s a God…but consider that they may have been atheists until they did hard core studying before they made their decision there was a God and weighed the evidence…in support of a divine creator.  There are many accounts of atheists who wanted to prove religious people wrong and took up a vocation to find evidence against God that have been converted in their journey.  There’s not truth, but God’s truth.

That’s all I’ll say about it…I certainly don’t want you to feel that I’m trying to make you join my “little cult” or anything.  I don’t even know you or anyone else on this website…I just know what God has revealed to me has commissioned me to do and has put on my heart to discuss with you.  All I can do is proclaim the truth…only God can draw a believer.  No matter what I say, it’s up to you and God…if He gives you that revelation or not.

God Bless all of you and I’ve really gotta get back to my school work…peace!

Justin

Well, after seeing that you liken Atheism to Satanism, which to you is probably some kind of horrible insult, I can see that you are not interested in an honest debate or learning about atheism, just in trying to ridicule it. It would seem that you are only interested in proving the superiority of your belief system over everyone elses…whatever gets you through the day man. The one thing that your belief system has not done for you is show you how to be humble.

I wish you luck keeping the faith.

I didn’t only liken Atheism to Satanism…I likened people all religions to it…it seems that you’re the one who took it as an insult.  I’m not out to insult anyone.  All I’m saying is that I see a few parallels…Satanism doesn’t sound all that bad when you look at the doctrines, it seems to serve man just as man wants to live.

people of* all religion…this site needs an editing option.  First time through the eye only sees what it expects to see.

The last couple of responses I put up took considerable time to type up and I’m afraid I don’t have that kind of time this evening so this response will be a bit shorter.

I don’t have the time to comment on your response just now…but I get a lot of my information from scientists such as Ken Ham and Dr. Hovind.

Their evidence is pretty compelling for me…but maybe you can open my mind and point out their flaws?

I’d have to say that your reliance on Ken Ham and Dr. Hovind is probably the root of the problem. Ken Ham is a Biblical Literalist who has made it clear that any scientific theory which contradicts anything written in the Bible can’t possibly be true as the Bible is infallible.

“No apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record.“

That quote alone is enough to discount anything Ken Ham might have to say in my mind. When you consider passages in the Bible such as:

• LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. - Rabbits don’t chew their cud.
• PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. - Snails don’t melt.
• GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life - Snakes don’t eat dirt.

It’s clear that it isn’t exactly full of good science information. According to Ken Ham, though, Snakes must eat dirt, snails must melt and rabbits must chew their cud because the Bible says so and any science that disagrees with that is just plain wrong. That’s just plain old-fashioned closed-mindedness and is not how a “scientist” does his job. A scientist doesn’t alter facts to fit his beliefs, he alters his beliefs to fit the facts.

“Dr.“ Kent Hovind is pretty much his own worst enemy. Any amount of time spent listening or reading about him will generally convince most folks of his status as a quack and I’ve spent way too much time reading his material already. His credentials as a “Dr.“ are somewhat dubious considering that he got his degree at Patriot University (note the .COM at the end of that URL as opposed to the .EDU that most legitimate universities have) which is a known diploma mill and not an accredited university. Also note that they have a whole page on their site devoted to a Q&A on accreditation which specifically notes that they are only “authorized by the State of Colorado to grant religious degrees.“ When you need brain surgery done are you going to listen to the advice of someone with a doctorate in religion or in neural medicine? Keeping in mind that much of the study of neural medicine uses the theory of evolution as its basis.

If that’s not enough to cast doubt on his qualifications then just listen to him contradict himself from his own seminars: “If you want to compare the eyes, we are closest to an octopus.  Not a chimpanzee.“ OK, but then he later says, “Now, octopuses live in the water.  Water stops UV light so they don’t need the blood vessels in front.  Now, if you want to swap eyes with an octopus have at it, but you’d be blind in a few days.“ OK, so which is it then Doc? Are our eyes closer to an Octopuses’ eyes or aren’t they? Of course my favorite of his self-contradictions would be: “Most Americans though do not believe the earth is billions of years old.“ Only to turn around and say “You do not change facts by majority opinion.“

The last statement I do agree with. In short, if these two men are the whole of your study into the theories of evolution and/or the Big Bang then you need to study more. Perhaps reading a few papers by folks are actually scientists studying those fields might help.

Lastly I find it somewhat amusing that the two men you cite as being most influential in your understanding of creationism as a valid idea don’t seem to get along with each other or even agree on what arguments in favor of creationism are valid.

I haven’t seen any good evidence for evolution yet…what info do you have on it?

Some of the best reading I’ve done on this topic has been several books by Stephen Jay Gould. One such book would be The Structure of Evolutionary Theory which was his last before his recent death. The second book I would recommend would be Ernst Mayr’s What Evolution Is. These are but two good books on the topic and make for easier reading than the average scientific paper, but if you’d rather get your info from a scientific journal then you’ll find the publication Nature has an excellent online presence and a section devoted to evolution and ecology. Fair warning, the number of research papers devoted to the topic of evolution can be quite overwhelming.

The Big Bang is evolutionary theorists’ explanation of our origins, is it not?  They are different theories…but they do go together.

No, it’s not. Evolutionary theorists generally don’t concern themselves with how the universe came to be. It is outside the scope of their studies. The Big Bang theory is the cosmologist’s explanation for the origin of the universe. Perhaps you are confusing the two different groups with a relatively new field of study known as Astrobiology? Astrobiology combines the sciences of biology, chemistry, palaeontology, geology, atmospheric physics, planetary science, astrophysics and cosmology in the study of the origin, evolution and distribution of life in the universe.

You made a good point about people who say they’ve been abducted by aliens…I can see why it’s so hard to believe my claim.

Thank you. It’s important that we have a clear idea of how we view things from different perspectives before an honest dialog can take place.

There will never be any definite proof of God’s existance, until we meet Him…and that’s why it takes faith, like you said…but I know what I experienced, and it is part of my faith to try to bring others to what I consider truth.  I know how it’s changed my life…and the lives of many of my close friends, and that’s really all I can say I’m absolutely sure of.

I can’t fault you for that at all. I have no problems with folks trying to show me the error of my ways as long as they are willing to discuss it openly and honestly. This kind of discourse is what promotes understanding of our differences if not agreement in our views.

I don’t blindly believe though…I’ve searched for evidence and am convinced from what I’ve found.

Fair enough. Keep in mind, however, that your conclusions are only as good as the data you use to form them. If you’ve not devoted any time to reading opposing viewpoints then you’re only getting one side of the argument. That is exactly why I do sit down with books written by creationists and others who wish to have religion promoted in schools as science.

But I’ll do more scientific research and keep you posted on what I discover for the evidence of God.  I hope you’ll keep me posted if you do encounter God…that’ll be an amazing testimony.

If I happen to hear from the big guy anytime soon, you’ll be the first to know.

OK, there are still several response I’ve not answered and I ended up making this one longer than I had intended. It’s late, I’m off to bed.

Les, I’ll keep it short and sweet.  My faith in Christ and the Word of God is absolutely stronger every single day by evidence that is all around me.  Some see it, some don’t.  Some will, and, unfortunately, and scripturally, most never will.
I grew up a nonbeliever and accepted the Lord a little over 3 years ago. I’m 35 as well.  I have much testimony, the likes of which your guest “Justin” described, and it is awesome, and beyond understanding.  You said you had dreams of becoming a pastor (or words to that effect) and cite reading the Bible 4 times or so.  All I can say is (promised to keep it short) is that you have, by example, unknowingly, have become testimony for Him in a very unique way, by simply showing that “booksmarts” alone will get you nowhere in the kingdom of God, nor is it a substitute for faith… for it is by faith and faith alone that you can receive the Holy Spirit.  I thank God using YOU in illustrating that so clearly. Certainly, that was not YOUR objective, but like it or not, you are the latest chapter in The Case for Christ as far as I am concerned. God uses
anyone he chooses, saved or not, for His Glory, and He just did it again, Les!  I pray that God will use you in bigger ways for His plan for your life, but you must allow that to happen.  Receive Him, again.  The choice is yours alone.

In Christ, Eric

Les, I’ll keep it short and sweet.  My faith in Christ and the Word of God is absolutely stronger every single day by evidence that is all around me. Some see it, some don’t.  Some will, and, unfortunately, and scripturally, most never will.

Good for you. I used to think I saw it, but then I opened my eyes and realized the truth.

I grew up a nonbeliever and accepted the Lord a little over 3 years ago. I’m 35 as well.  I have much testimony, the likes of which your guest “Justin” described, and it is awesome, and beyond understanding.

If it’s beyond understanding then what’s the point? I mean if you enjoy going around in a dazed state I suppose that’s fine, but…

You said you had dreams of becoming a pastor (or words to that effect) and cite reading the Bible 4 times or so.  All I can say is (promised to keep it short) is that you have, by example, unknowingly, have become testimony for Him in a very unique way, by simply showing that “booksmarts” alone will get you nowhere in the kingdom of God, nor is it a substitute for faith… for it is by faith and faith alone that you can receive the Holy Spirit.

The implication here being that I didn’t have enough faith. Up until I read the Bible front to back I was all about faith. Had to be for I hadn’t really studied the Bible closely before then. I took up the first full reading at the urging of my Pastor as a first step toward becoming more involved in the church. Now why would God allow me to do something that he should have foreseen would destroy my faith in him if he wanted to keep me in the fold? Surely you’d think my study of the Bible would have strengthened my already strong (at the time) faith, but instead it started me on the path out of the church.

I thank God using YOU in illustrating that so clearly. Certainly, that was not YOUR objective, but like it or not, you are the latest chapter in The Case for Christ as far as I am concerned. God uses anyone he chooses, saved or not, for His Glory, and He just did it again, Les!

Are you suggesting that God intentionally allowed my to lose my faith as an example to others? Why should I be the lucky one?

I pray that God will use you in bigger ways for His plan for your life, but you must allow that to happen.  Receive Him, again.  The choice is yours alone.

If what you’re suggesting is true, that God allowed me to lose my faith so I could serve as an example that “booksmarts” alone isn’t enough in God’s eyes then why should I bother to seek him out again? Your logic here is ridiculous.

I always love it when Christians come by and suggest things like the above. That somehow I didn’t have enough faith and that’s why I’ve lost my way and if I’ll just try again I’ll be swept up in the holy spirit. I’m of the opinion that if it didn’t work the first time there’s not much motivation to try again. That and the fact that since I’ve expanded my views on religion beyond the narrow confines of Christianity I can no longer have the narrow-mindedness that such faith seems to require. If it works for you, great, but some of us have grown beyond the need to believe in supreme beings and unicorns and other flights of the imagination.