Oh, I loved the part about Apple Computers being a cult. Thanks for a cheap laugh, Dr. Paley, you’re a riot.

and you know, with OS-X, apple moved from nice christian integers to roman numerals, which never mind the unix reference, must be evil because as we know the romans were godless heathens.

it is a conspiracy. if i didn’t get PCs for free i’d go buy a Mac, just to get in on it.

Back during the Reagan administration I remember some Fundamentalist nutbag was ranting about the evil propaganda being foisted upon our children (oh god…think about our children!) by insidious blue cartoon gnomes known as the Smurfs.  It was then that a friend and I came to understand that all things could be traced back to the dark lord if one just looked with unclouded eyes…for example:

Clowns - The traditional clown wears a bulbous red rubber nose, red is the color of fire, fire is a tool of the devil, hence clowns are evil.

Analog Clocks - All analog clocks have hands, idle hands, idle hands are the devils workshop, therefore analog clocks are ticking time bombs of pure evil.

Pick an item around your house, you wont have to look far and you will discover that Satan dogs your every step.  Be careful.

God, that site was hilarious!  They’re so worried about cults, but their own page of rejecting the EVILS of halloween (oh no, Satan will steal the children’s precious..candy) actually reads like a cult page.  Some ways to combat the evil cults lurking in every corner is to “Hand out Bible tracts not candy”.  they even went so far as to suggest that Christian put “pro-Jesus messages printed on the wrappers….help create in the child a positive association with Christianity”  They suggested you use Bazzoka Joe.  Let’s not forget “the spirit raising power of simple symbolic candies, such as candy crosses or chocolate Jesus fish”!
Hmm, let’s see.  A religious group admitts to trying to subtlely inlfuence naive gullible children by disguising their messages as comic strips inside of candy wrappers?  Cult, anyone…?

Just came across this, had a look at their latest site. How lunatic fringe are they? They broke away from their website host because of their string objection to Triclavianism. This belief holds that Jesus was nailed up by three and three only, not two, and not four, Nails.

These people crack me up. Talk about an obsessive Cult.

well, i think you all have no lives if all you can do is sit around and criticize what other people believe in. At least they have something that makes them happy and lifts them up everyday. Whenever i see christians, they’re having a great time; better off than most people, and they rarely judge others like you are doing right here. You shouldn’t be slamming christians, you should be jealous of them and want to have what they have.

well, i think you all have no lives if all you can do is sit around and criticize what other people believe in.

It’s not all I can do, but it’s certainly one of the things I can do.

At least they have something that makes them happy and lifts them up everyday.

So do I and that’s making fun of Christian Fundamentalists. It lifts me up and makes me happy every day!

Whenever i see christians, they�re having a great time; better off than most people, and they rarely judge others like you are doing right here.

I’d say your exposure to Christians has been somewhat limited. All one needs to do is look around this site to see

lots

of examples of Christians judging others.

You shouldn’t be slamming christians, you should be jealous of them and want to have what they have.

Wow, you are funny! Besides belief in a God, what do Christians have that I don’t?

That site supposed to be made fun of-it’s a parody site, although with the parody laid on thin enough that some people take it at face value.

God is real. He is an extreme agoraphobic and needs more positive affirmations to cure him of his invisiblitity. “Your such a good god, yes you are, we love you, come on out, its ok…“ As such.
If we all just pull together and coax him out of his hole, I’m sure he’d be glad to explain things. Like cancer and christianity.
Satan is real too by the way. I met him. Scared the Bajesus out of me. Well, it was either satan or my uncle fred who lives in the basement. One of the two.
God/ego/steeples/penis/missles. Too many humans worried about the afterlife. Too afraid to live, cuz they’re too afraid to die. Saved and safe are synonomous. Imagine, a belief system made in a time when people put leeches on their foreheads to suck out evil demons….still being practiced after landing on the moon. If you were from another planet, would you want to come here? Give up God, and you’ll find something infinitely more substantial. It doesn’t need a name.
paz

So do I and that�s making fun of Christian Fundamentalists. It lifts me up and makes me happy every day!

Then you have no life…...

Wow, you have an understanding of one aspect of my personality and you suddenly think you’ve got enough info to pass judgment. That’s quite the trick.

But I shall concede the point and admit that I have no life because I make fun of Christian Fundamentalists. Still, it makes for a very happy life so I can’t complain. :-D

So umm, yeah. The creationist dude’s site is totally wack. Honestly yeah, I do have to wonder where people like him come up with stuff like this. Mind you, I’m not sure making fun of people like him is the best thing to do… I kinda feel sorry for the guy.
Paz - you’re a funny one, but take it easy on the generalizations. Just because some people calling themselves Christians are kind of on the freaky side doesn’t mean you can toss them all in the crazy bin. “Too afraid to live cuz they’re too afraid to die”???? There are plenty of Christians who don’t use God as a crutch. There are plenty of non-Christians who use Atheism as a crutch. I’m not trying to make you think that all Christians are wonderful people, because unfortunately, they’ve too often proven the contrary, but if you want to make fun of something - make fun of the people who do the stupid stuff, not the group they claim to belong to.
Peace

How the heck can no belief in god(s) be used as a crutch?

You know, that’s a good question.  What exactly do we mean when we say that a belief is a crutch?  I think when people say that belief in God can be a crutch, they mean that some forms of Christians are uncomfortable with some of what goes on in the world, and the idea that a loving caring divine father figure is there looking out for them gives them comfort - maybe it’s even to the point that they wouldn’t even be able to cope without that idea of God.  So clearly a psychological crutch provides support (/comfort) where there is a deficiency (inability to cope in a world with no god). 
On to your question, how can no belief in God be a crutch?  Very simple—say the idea of some sort of divine presence or final moral accounting for your life makes you uncomfortable.  Say you have things going a certain way and the existence of God would have you call that into question (how uncomfortable!), maybe you’d have to change how you’re living.  Here, the idea that there is no god(s) provides comfort where there is a deficiency (inability to cope in a world where there is a god).  That’s a crutch. 
Now personally, I don’t think the crutch analogy is helpful, because there’s the temptation to reverse things and say that if someone derives comfort from a belief, then they believe for the sake of having that comfort (that’s a fallacy).  I will concede that some (/many?) ‘Christians’ use God as a crutch.  I would also argue that some (/many?) ‘Atheists’ use no god(s) as a crutch.  Most of all though, I would argue that almost everyone derives comfort from their beliefs - so then it’s really hard to tell who’s doin’ the whole crutch thing and who’s not (which shows you how stupid it is to talk about it in the first place).
Let me leave you today with this challenge.  In the same way that it would make a Christian excessively uncomfortable to discover that there is no god (with the knowledge that they would have to re-arrange their life around that fact), would it not make you uncomfortable to discover that there is a God? Especially if that God has some sort of final moral judgment thing planned, especially if that God has certain standards etc.. ? I’d wager—yeah, that’d make anyone uncomfortable at first. And that’s ok.  It just shows that it’s easy to pick on people for the emotional relationship they have to their worldview.
That’s it for today—Peace.

StrangerMK, I’d wager just the opposite. I don’t know of any atheists who would become “uncomfortable” to discover that there is a God out there that has some sort of final moral judgment thing planned, as you put it. There’s not much comfort to be taken in the atheist viewpoint to begin with. You never hear anyone saying “The death of a loved one was very hard for me, but I took comfort in my non-belief.“

I think part of the problem is with your analogy. A crutch can be a useful tool when you have a valid need for it, but once you’re able to stand on your own two feet again you stop using it because it then causes more problems than it solves. This is what most folks mean when they speak of people using religious belief as a crutch. I’m not at all sure how an atheistic viewpoint, where you’re bascially self-reliant, is in any way crutch-like.

I would only be uncomfortable if that crazy old fuck from the Bible™ turned out to be real! I mean come on! Killing first born and drowning folks and making people eat shit and burn forever and stuff doesn’t sound too good to me.

(“consider”)

Somehow I think this site should be referenced from this thread. 

Les, I appreciate your insights. I think you do a good job of portraying the way in which most people view Christian crutchedness.  :-p Nevertheless, let me see if I can salvage my analogy.
The supposed psychological comfort of Atheism that I was trying to get at was precisely that one becomes self-reliant. I think a case can be made that self-reliance can be pushed to unhealthy extremes. Maybe Mr. Self-Reliant Atheist is incapable of healthy give-and-take love relationships, maybe he is distrustful of everyone (including his friends), or maybe he just feels it’s ok to mistreat others (“I don’t need other people, I’m self-reliant!“)... In any of those (granted, hypothetical) cases, I think it’s safe to say that Mr. Atheist is to a certain extent unhealthy. Moreover, his ‘self-reliance’ is crutch-like in that it is a ‘risk-free bubble’ of sorts. If you don’t depend on others, you can control your life. But, as that dorky Finding Nemo pointed out, people who are afraid to take risks are just plain insecure and need to loosen up.
What am I getting at? Simply that self-reliance can become a crutch as well.
Hold on a second… aren’t Christians the ones who need to loosen up? Yeah sure, lots of ‘em. I don’t deny that. But consider this: some Christians believe in a God who makes demands on their life, and they give things up for him, take crap for him, etc, etc. Consider also that most Christians don’t have mushy-gushy feelings about God most of the time. Which means, far from being comforting, it might be argued that the Christian life is very UNcomfortable. I mean yeah, dying for your beliefs? reaaaaal comfy. Oh yeah.

IMPORTANT NOTE: my argument is not that all Atheists use their Atheism as a crutch. I don’t believe that. I’m simply trying to point out that Atheism CAN be used as a crutch. Christianity can be used as a crutch as well, but it doesn’t HAVE TO be one. In fact, I’ve known people from every faction - Christians, Atheists, crutched and un-crutched alike.

So what’s my point? Simply this: if you wanna take jabs at people, take jabs at concrete people who are unhealthy (if you must - the ideal of course would be to show them the error of their ways), and not the group they claim to belong to. Just because the crusaders murdered a bunch of people in the name of Christ doesn’t mean we should bash Christians anymore than we should bash Muslims for 9/11 because some freaky terrorists claim to worship Allah. Does that make sense?

Conveniently, and though putting your own unfortunate spin on it, you kind of proved my point Spocko.    As a side note however, I don’t think any Christian in his/her own right mind would argue that God will make you eat shit. Thankfully. I hear it doesn’t taste too good. If you have issues with the doctrine of hell, e-mail me. 

And for your second comment (the Jesus dating site), LOL!!! I’d never been there before—the dude looks EXACTLY like the Norwegian-Jesus stereotype! Complete with blue eyes and white robes and everything!! hehehe… Ladies, Jesus is available!

Atheism isn’t about self-reliance. It is about rational thinking and the need for wild claims to be proven.

Scatological fun from the bible…

“that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you” (II Kings 18:27, Isaiah 36:12)

“And thou shalt eat it [as] barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight” (Ez 4:12).

“Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow’s dung for man’s dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith” (Ez 4:15).

“Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces…“(Malachi 2:3).

How can anyone believe anything from an old collection of tripe that includes this shit?

I fail to see how being self-reliant, let alone atheism can be considered a crutch.  Even in the argument that StrangerMK presented, self-reliance taken to its extreme would become an obsession at best.

Religion and Christianity in particular harbor a peculiar codependency aspect to them that makes them inherently unhealthy.  In a poor co-dependent relationship the lesser member literally feels that they cannot exist without the other.  In stronger co-dependent relationships the lesser member feels the need to have the other member’s blessing in order to carry out their daily life.

This is taken from a guide to human co-dependent relationships.  Factor in an imaginary member and I’m sure the degree of harm increases exponentially.

Since atheism is not a belief but a lack thereof the carry over impact into one’s individual relationships doesn’t equate on the same level as say an Islamist versus a Mormon.

I just can’t deal with it!
Excuse me while I lean on myself!?

I’m sorry, am I alone here? Am I really that incoherent? I mean come on guys, can you grant me that not all atheists are healthy? Can you grant me that some Christians are healthy? That’s really all I’m saying. I didn’t think my thesis was incredibly controversial… Example of a couple unhealthy atheists: Sartre and Foucault to name a couple. Example of a couple healthy Christians: Plantinga and Mother Teresa. I mean yeah, Mother Teresa, totally unhealthy - giving helpful shit to other people in need, yeah God was such a crutch to her. She hid from the evil in the world. Riiiight…

As for the whole codependent bit. Like I said before, sure, there are SOME Christians who have codependent relationships with an imaginary friend. I agree, that IS quite unhealthy. On the other hand, I really don’t think that all relationships imply codependency, and if true Christianity is about healthy love and healthy relationship—and I believe a case can be made that it is—then Christianity isn’t necessarily unhealthy. In fact, it might even be quite healthy.

As for your prophetic shitty quotes (I mean that quite literally) - I laughed. Not because you misused them, but because I had forgotten that they were there… hehehe. Hmm, anyway, if you really want to push that argument, I recommend first reading Abraham Heschel’s The Prophets, which is an analysis of the prophetic style of writing and style of life. I think that would help put things in context if that’s really what bugs you about the Bible. If you wanna go to the biblical text, that’s fine, just be a little more precise and contextual when you quote something. Without context, I’ll agree that plenty of things in Scripture are offensive (and even in context sometimes), but how’s come no one picks quotes like, oh, say, this one: “Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.“ (James 1:27) You know, to me, that doesn’t sound excessively unhealthy. In fact, that could be construed as beneficial to society, wouldn’t you say?

Again (and hopefully for the last time), Christianity CAN be used as a crutch (/can be unhealthy/can be used by a bunch of shitheads to spread propaganga/can be used to cover for sexual molestation), but that ANYTHING can. Humans are creative in their deficiencies. My argument is simply this: Christianity isn’t unhealthy of necessity. My tentative argument is this: Christianity (properly executed by healthy persons) may actually be quite healthy. Is this really such a ludicrous claim?

-Peace-

Sorry StrangerMK, mostly just playing with you.

As far as the bible goes, I think it bogus that you have to dig through piles of dung to find any pearls of wisdom and what you do find that is good is just common sense. Why all the malarky?

God’s hit list…

1- The entire population of the earth at the time of Noah, except for eight survivors. (Genesis 7:23)
2- Everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. (Genesis 19:24,25)
3- Amalek and his people. (Exodus 17:8­16)
4- 3,000 Israelites. (Exodus 32:27,28)
5- 14,700 Jews. (Numbers 16:44­49)
6- The people of Og. “So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.“ (Numbers 21:33­35)
7- 24,000 people. (Numbers 25:4­9)
8- All Midianite males. (Numbers 31:6­12)
9- The Ammonites. (Deuteronomy 2:19­21)
10-The Horims. (Deuteronomy 2:22)
11-The Amorites. “…utterly destroyed the men and the women and the little ones.“ (Deuteronomy 2:33­35)
12-The Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. “. . . thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them;“ (Deuteronomy 7:1­5)
13- Everyone in Jericho but one family. (Joshua 6:20­25)
14-12,000 people of Ai. (Joshua 8:19­29)
15-All the people of Makkedah. (Joshua 10:28)
16-All the people of Libnah. (Joshua 10:29,30)
17-All the people of Gezer. (Joshua 10:33)
18-All the people of Eglon. (Joshua 10:34,35)
19-All the people of Hebron. (Joshua 10:36,37)
20-10,000 Perizzites and Canaanites. (Judges 1:4)
21-All the inhabitants of the land of Goshen “. . . neither left they any to breathe.“ (Joshua 11:12­16)
22-The inhabitants of Hormah, Gaza, Askelon, Ekron. (Judges 1:17­19)
23-10,000 Moabites. (Judges 3:29)
24-600 Philistines. (Judges 3:31)
25-All the hosts of Sisera. (Judges 4:16)
26-120,000 Midianites. (Judges 8:10)
27-1,000 Philistines. (Judges 15:15)
28-25,100 Benjaminites. (Judges 20:35)
29-50,070 people of Bethshemesh. (1 Samuel 6:19)
30-All the Amalekites. “Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling….“ (1 Samuel 15:3­7)
31-200 Philistine men, in order to obtain their foreskins as the price for buying a bride. (1 Samuel 18:27)
32-22,000 Syrians. (2 Samuel 8:5)
33-40,000+ Syrians. (2 Samuel 10:18)
34-The Ammonites of Rabbah, who were tortured to death by the great King David. (2 Samuel 12:29­31)
35-70,000 people. (2 Samuel 24:15)
36-Every man in Edom. (1 Kings 11:15)
37-All the prophets of Baal. (1 Kings 18:40)
38-127,000 Syrians. (1 Kings 20:28­30)
39-Moabite captains & “fifties.“ (2 Kings 1:9­14)
40-42 children, eaten by bears. (2 Kings 2:23,24)
41-185,000 Assyrians killed in their sleep. (2 Kings 19:35)
42-500,000 men of Israel. (2 Chronicles 13:16­20)
43-20,000 Edomites. (2 Chronicles 25:11,12)
44-120,000 Judeans in one day. (2 Chronicles 28:5,6)
45-75,500+ people. (Esther 9:12­14

I want nothing to do with this maniac!

(“thinking”)

StrangerMK - No you’re not incoherent and alone.  I think we all enjoy good discussion and debate, it’s just that your argument seems a bit distorted.

I will grant you this.  There are both unhealthy Christians and unhealthy atheists, but not for the reasons that you assert in your original argument.  You cannot compare the two side-by-side.  Any belief system permeates throughout one’s life, but a religious belief system, in particular, tends to be very far reaching.

With atheism there is no belief system to equate to Christianity in order to draw a comparison.  Applying a religious layer to the belief system could be a positive or a negative factor based on the individual.  I would argue that ‘negative’ dominates this group.  In that sense, Christians and atheists could have the same crutches but it would be based on their core belief system and not their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

Spocko’s probably got a pic of the Pope on crutches tucked away somewhere. 

Self-reliance is not a “crutch.“  Nor is it synonymous with social retardation or isolationism.  The -only- way that it can be seen as such is to -define- it that way.  Which I think is what you did.

The personality traits that you are attributing to “unhealthy” self-reliance -may- be found in people who are self-reliant, OR in people who are incredibly dependent.  Someone could be completely introverted, incapable of a give-and-take love relationship, and still be completely dependent upon someone else to provide them with emotional assurance, or physical necessities.  By the same token, someone can be completely self-reliant, and still—want—to establish social ties with others.  Self reliance is when you don’t -depend- on others for emotional gratification, or help, but that doesn’t mean that you -can’t- accept help, or that you wouldn’t -want- help.  I’m self-reliant.  I can cook my own food, and wash my own dishes.  But I LIKE it when my wife helps me.  And I’ll ask her for help too, because I prefer it that way.

Let me be clear, as well, that I think that just because religion -may- be used as a crutch, that doesn’t meant that it -must- be used in that way.  It’s entirely possible for someone to be self-reliant, and deeply religious as well.  “God helps those who help themselves, so I better put my shoulder to the wheel” type of Christians.

However, even self-reliant Christians, if they truly adhere to the tenets of Christianity, do not -have- to make certain decisions for themselves.  They can greatly simplify their lives, and the way that they think about things, by following doctrine.  Religion can provide great comfort, and a certain amount of protection from self-doubt, and self questioning.

That doesn’t meant that every Christian does this.  But they—can—.  In stark contrast, Atheism offers NO answers.  It just tells you that certain answers are off-limits, because they don’t make sense, or because you, as an individual, are constitutionally incapable of faith.

That doesn’t meant that Atheists won’t have, or can’t have, their own “crutches.“  It’s perfectly possible to be an atheist, but have a paranoid approach to the world, where you blame “everyone else” for what happens to you.  Instead of Satan, it’s those shitty people all around you.  By the same token, if you have success, you can smugly pat yourself on the back for your own hard work and skills, even if the -real- reason you got the job is because you’re better looking than the guy who interviewed before you.  In that case, rather than attributing your success to God’s grace, you ‘lean’ on a sense of your own self-worth.

I’d argue that religion -can- be a crutch, but that atheism can’t.  That doesn’t mean that atheists can’t be self-deluded, it just means that their delusion isn’t articulated around a religious conviction.

But that’s just my opinion.  I could be wrong.

As for “healthy” Christians, I don’t have a problem with them.  My definition of a healthy Christian is one that chooses to live by their religious rules, but doesn’t insist that everyone else—also—live by their religious rules. 

And that’s MY “truth held to be self evident.“

On a separate note, I’d be interested in knowing why you think Foucault is an “unhealthy” atheist.

And that’s way more than I planned to write, so I’m going to play UT, and blow some shit up!

captcha “hand”