There is no room for misinterpretation here. And maybe we need to have a session, kinda like a debate, where all presidential candidates (and political candidates in general) are grilled on what’s in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Make it a requirement before the can turn in petitions for the primaries.

Let’s add ignorance of the Bible to the list.  In how many places does the God of the Israelites give his nod to mass displacement or even genocide of those who dare oppose his chosen tribe?  Judeo-Christian values being the core of human rights:  riiiiiight…  Like no other religion has any value for human life or places any value on empathy, justice, etc.

McCain is so obviously going ‘round the twist, though, that I can’t believe anybody even listens anymore.  Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if Russ Feingold avoids eye contact and ducks into the nearest doorway or hall if he sees McCain walking in his direction.

I think that Webs has a brilliant idea.  Let’s turn the debates back over to the League of Women Voters, while we’re at it.  (I hear that it was fun to watch them run those things with an iron fist.) If we’d done that back in 2000, things would have turned out way different.  Let’s face it:  There ain’t enough flash cards in the world to help Dubya memorize all those pesky Amendments he later trashed.

McCain has just lost it.  Sad ending for a former POW.  If only we could make Webs idea a reality.  I like the orange, btw.

He’s playing to the gallery. They did a piece on BBC News 24 about him and his efforts to raise money. Some democracy- gotta be rich to stand.

If the US is so Christian why not repeal the amendment and establish religeon.

I would like to see all the Candidates show up on shows like ” Jeopardy ” or even ” Are you smarter than a 5th Grader ” Give us some idea before we Vote.

As for John McCain, I appreciate his service to this Country in the deepest of ways. But he needs to retire.

Personally I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea if you had to prove you had the mental capacity to understand the issues before you vote.  Over here lots of people are calling for a referendum on the latest EU treaty.  You just know virtually no one is going to read it, but lots of people will vote against because the press tells them to.

If the US is so Christian why not repeal the amendment and establish religeon.

That would require conscious change - the dominionists want to do it all sneaky like.

But they should be careful what they wish for.

Thanks, DOF. That link was very uplifting. Maybe there is hope for the younger generation.

Ok…I am not sure where you came from, but John McCain is not pandering to the Religious Right…by any stretch. He is pandering to the enviros, moderates (aka…weenie Libs) and big business. He has done about everything NOT to get along with the Christian Right, let alone pander.
As far as his comments about this being a Christian based country..yeah, he is right. To think otherwise would be to ignore the founding documents, purposes for fighting for freedom, and nearly all our laws and what they are based on. So, the one time John McCain was historically correct you lefties claim he is pandering to the Right, you guys are a real gas. What are you complaining about…he is a spineless oppurtunist who will sell out the Right for a vote…as far as I am concerned I will not vote for him at all.

as far as I am concerned I will not vote for him at all.

Great!  I’m not going to vote for him, either.

Me either. At least that much we agree on. Though I’d suggest you go back and restudy American history, Johnny.

That was an incredibly nonsensical rant and funny how it ended up to the same conclusion as me. I’m not voting for McCain either. So I guess in a convoluted way that makes Johnny a Librool.

Hey! Thanks for responding!
While not every forefather was religious and/or had varying opinions on certain biblical doctrines, they all knew that it was because of a creator, aka God, as outlined through the scriptures, that men are given certain unalienable rights that man can not nor should not take away or try to control. It was based on that idea the constructed the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. What federalist document, writ of our forefathers, or where in the Declaration of Independence is there the principles or sayings that America was not built or established on the JudeoChristian Bible and those principles.
What our forefathers wanted was freedom from a government sanctioned church…not freedom from a religious government! This is a very important yet often overlooked point. The study of American history shows that while an individual has the right not to believe in God and that no specific church should be the State’s, Christianity is most certainly the basis for many of our laws and our culture. Everything from free speech to guns to property ownership (even bankruptcy) was established from the Bible. I know it is hard for some to believe this, because public schools do not teach indepth American history anymore. I dare anyone who really wants to show me wrong, take 2 hours and read some of the Federalist’s Papers, the Constitution of America or even the Declaration of Independence and come back and explain to me how America is not built off of Biblical principles. I would be more then glad to continue this discussion as it is always stimulating to discuss such matters. One last note: I am not voting for John McCain because he is too much like a Lib…you guys should just love him, he does what is liberal, all the while ruining the GOP and Right’s reputation…he is one of you!!

liberal Supreme Court chief justice, Earl Warren, wrote in 1954:
“I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia ... or to the Charter of New England ... or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay ... or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut ... the same objective is present ... a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country.”

George Washington
“Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
“It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible.”

Thomas Jefferson, the man “blamed” for the wall of separation between church and state
  “I have always said, and will always say, that the studious perusal of the   sacred volume will make us better citizens.”
“And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that His justice cannot sleep forever.”
“No power over the freedom of religion . . .[is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
“I am a Christian,  in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other.” Letter to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803

What federalist document, writ of our forefathers, or where in the Declaration of Independence is there the principles or sayings that America was not built or established on the JudeoChristian Bible and those principles.

I don’t know of any, Johnny. But as far as I know, none of these documents say that America was not built or established on the Koran, or on the Church of the Subgenius either.  Not an argument.

Everything from free speech to guns to property ownership (even bankruptcy) was established from the Bible.

Property ownership is indeed mentioned in the Bible.  And weapons, if not guns, are too.  But where is free speech supported in the Bible?  I can only think of restrictions on free speech:  for instance, Paul’s injunction against women speaking in the church.  But I’m open to correction.

A muddle of cherry-picked quotes and half-truths. 

I dare anyone who really wants to show me wrong, take 2 hours and read some of the Federalist’s Papers, the Constitution of America or even the Declaration of Independence and come back and explain to me how America is not built off of Biblical principles.

OK, one example: where exactly in the Constitution does it even mention God, let alone the Bible?

And one question: have you ever examined a ‘Jefferson Bible’?

Lots of stuff has been attributed to the founding fathers but a good many of them were Deists.  They recognized the cultural significance of scripture, and the necessity of working with religious people in the formation of the new Union, but the idea that they were Christians as you would recognize them is a blinkered reading of history.

Johnny is using the “there’s nothing that says it wasn’t founded on Christian principles therefore it must be founded on Christian principles” argument, but alas it just shows an incomplete knowledge.

I dare anyone who really wants to show me wrong, take 2 hours and read some of the Federalist’s Papers, the Constitution of America or even the Declaration of Independence and come back and explain to me how America is not built off of Biblical principles.

Easy enough to do, Johnny boy. I submit for your consideration this section of the Treaty of Tripoli:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

See that first sentence there, Johnny? It states rather unequivocally that the U.S. is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. Not only is that a pretty straightforward statement of fact, but it’s also—by it’s nature as a treaty—the law of the land.

It also helps to study up on some of the letters written by our Founding Fathers to see what their intent was. It’s quite clear that the founding principles this country was based on came mainly from the Enlightenment and English Common Law.

Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren’s quotation clearly shows he’s making a statement of opinion, but not one of fact. Lots of people hold similar opinions, but that doesn’t make them true.

George Washington was most likely a deist and most of the reports from people who knew him said he was anything but a Christian. To wit:

“I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more.”—The Reverend Bird Wilson “I know that Gouverneur Morris, who claimed to be in his secrets, and believed himself to be so, has often told me that General Washington believed no more in that system [Christianity] than he did.”—Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, February, 1800

Thomas Jefferson could be called a Christian, but, as he himself point out, it was of a very exclusive sect:

“I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.”—Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely (June 25, 1819

While Jefferson believed that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure with great moral teachings, he also completely rejected the idea that Christ was literally the Son of God or that any of the miracles in the Bible were anything other than fiction. He even went as far as to make his own version of the Bible in which he cut out all the stuff he considered nonsense:

We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select even from the very words of Jesus, paring off the amphiboligisms into which they have been led by forgetting often or not understanding what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill.—Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, October 13, 1813 My aim in that was, to justify the character of Jesus against the fictions of his pseudo-followers, which have exposed him to the inference of being an impostor. For if we could believe that he really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods and the charlatanisms which his biographers father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind, that he was an impostor. I give no credit to their falsifications of his actions and doctrines, and to rescue his character, the postulate in my letter asked only what is granted in reading every other historian…. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore.—Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

Jefferson’s take on Christianity is so far removed from most of the denominations that he was frequently attacked by religious leaders of the period as being, at best, a Deist and, at worst, an atheist.

Regardless of the fact that there were Christians among the Founding Fathers, that doesn’t prove that they founded the country on Christian principles. Certainly Christianity had some influence on the system that eventually was set down, but any study of the history shows that the founders went out of their way to make the basis of this government as secular as possible. In fact when some folks proposed language that would’ve included, among other things, references to Jesus Christ the motion was voted down by the majority.

But, hey, you asked for an example and I’ve provided one.

guns ... was established from the Bible.

“Beat your ploughshares in to a bad motherfucker magnum, boy, cuz ahm gonna whoop your pasty white ass” Gospel according to Samuel L Jackson.

You totally skipped over my first sentence…“While not every forefather was religious and/or had varying opinions on certain biblical doctrines, they all knew that it was because of a creator, aka God, as outlined through the scriptures.” That is the foundation of my argument…

Regardless of their INDIVIDUAL doctrinal beliefs, they put into motion documents and laws founded, not on the Koran, or Hindu writings, but on the Old and New Testament scriptures…so regardless of individual varying views…the “Principles” are scripturally based, adding the strong Christian heritage and culture of the continuing generations, it is a very safe statement that we are a Christian nation (though I will admit, not nearly as much as we used to be or that we always will stay that way). Also, Thomas Jefferson may have cut out parts of the Bible, but not the parts that govern us, those he believed were divine!

The Constitution does not say Bible, nor did I say it did. But the PRINCIPLES are scriptural.
You are trying to use the varying beliefs of the individuals to prove the whole country was not based on God’s law…when it is clear by the beginning words of the Declaration of Independence that the founding fathers recognized in a higher being (through obvious observation that being the God of the JudeoChristian faith).

You are using red herring arguments by bringing out Washington’s or Jefferson’s individual religious beliefs rather then arguing where the founding fathers got their governing principles from.

To answer the treaty concerning Tripoli, I ask you to take this into consideration, for in its context you have to look at who the Mussulman were…they were Muslims who had been at odds with Europe for centuries due to the Catholic church and English rule. To the Muslims, Europeans were synonymous with the Catholic church…aka…Christians (Christian Crusades). And no, America was not founded on the Catholic religion of brutality and mafia tactics in the name of Christ, but its foundation is based on the Bible…going back to Washington…“It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible.” (that sounds pretty Judeo-Christian to me)

So, here is the situation, America needs for the Muslims to stop pirating our ships and making the American citizens slaves…they make it clear America is NOT Europe, nor is our government on a religious crusade to overtake the Muslims or be at war with them like the Catholic church and English government had. So, one statement out of context is a far cry for the idea were are not a Christian nation.

What happens if there is no recognition of a higher authority over man then himself?

Then the only obvious conclusion is that man must get his direction and governance from himself in the form of civil government. But as history sadly reveals, those who would renounce God as the highest authority begin a war on him and those who would desire to believe in him. It begins by the exclusion of religious freedom from individuals in their public life because it might “offend” those who do not believe such nonsense. It then moves to a need to legislate against such people and forbid them from office. Then it moves into controlling what everybody thinks and says so as not to upset the governing powers pursuit of peace and utopia. Then comes the call for individuals not to be armed because it is the governments job to protect you just like they did when they barred religious zealots from practicing their beliefs. Then comes the thought police, then the encampments and jails.

Why does this all happen, because when there is no higher power to get our freedom from, then government is your god and since men are evil by nature, then evil will rule.

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini…all atheists, all mass murders.

While inevitably, someone will write and say, “what about all the murders in the name of religion?” It must be remembered that not all religions are good ones, because tif hey are invented from the evil hearts of men, thus the same outcome is produced.

However, when you look to the New Testament and find Jesus, who was not politically ambitious, but concerned about reconciling men to God, we find a whole different type of motivating power. The true message of Christ was love and forgiveness and the power through him to love your neighbor as yourself. When these principles are applied, then we have a government that allows men to seek God how they want as long as it does not hurt others pursuing of him, as well and does not hinder that pursuit. You have a government that treats each individual citizen as a special creation of God (even the ones still in the womb) and recognizes all men to be equal. That is the foundation on which this country was established, thus making it Christian based.

Johnny tries again…

You totally skipped over my first sentence…“While not every forefather was religious and/or had varying opinions on certain biblical doctrines, they all knew that it was because of a creator, aka God, as outlined through the scriptures.” That is the foundation of my argument…

I didn’t skip it at all. I addressed that argument by pointing out that the basis had more to do with the Enlightenment and English Common Law than any Biblical principles.

Regardless of their INDIVIDUAL doctrinal beliefs, they put into motion documents and laws founded, not on the Koran, or Hindu writings, but on the Old and New Testament scriptures…

Please provide something to bolster that claim. So far you’ve yet to cite a single thing that would support that statement whereas I’ve provided you with an actual law that says otherwise.

so regardless of individual varying views…the “Principles” are scripturally based, adding the strong Christian heritage and culture of the continuing generations, it is a very safe statement that we are a Christian nation (though I will admit, not nearly as much as we used to be or that we always will stay that way).

Actually there are more self-professed Christians in the country today than there was at its formation percentage-wise. We are a Christian nation only in the sense that we are a nation composed mainly of Christians.

Also, Thomas Jefferson may have cut out parts of the Bible, but not the parts that govern us, those he believed were divine!

Again I’d love to see you supply something that supports that claim. Nothing I’ve seen in Jefferson’s writings would indicate what you claim above.

The Constitution does not say Bible, nor did I say it did. But the PRINCIPLES are scriptural.

Again please cite something to support that claim.

You are trying to use the varying beliefs of the individuals to prove the whole country was not based on God’s law…when it is clear by the beginning words of the Declaration of Independence that the founding fathers recognized in a higher being (through obvious observation that being the God of the JudeoChristian faith).

The Constitution is the basis of our government, not the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution is a wholly secular document. In determining the foundation of this country it’s the Constitution that matters, not the Declaration of Independence.

That said there’s nothing obvious about the assumption that the Creator listed in the Declaration is definitely the Christian God (Judeo Christian being a silly designation). Especially given the number of Founding Fathers who were Deist at best.

You are using red herring arguments by bringing out Washington’s or Jefferson’s individual religious beliefs rather then arguing where the founding fathers got their governing principles from.

You’re the one who started cherry picking quotes from Washington and Jefferson to being with so don’t blame me for throwing them back into your face. If their individual religious beliefs don’t matter to the discussion then don’t pull them in to start with.

To answer the treaty concerning Tripoli, I ask you to take this into consideration, for in its context you have to look at who the Mussulman were…they were Muslims who had been at odds with Europe for centuries due to the Catholic church and English rule. To the Muslims, Europeans were synonymous with the Catholic church…aka…Christians (Christian Crusades). And no, America was not founded on the Catholic religion of brutality and mafia tactics in the name of Christ, but its foundation is based on the Bible…going back to Washington…“It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible.” (that sounds pretty Judeo-Christian to me)

You’re a hypocrite. First you cherry pick a quote, then you bitch at me when I point out that Washington wasn’t a Christian, and then you try to use that same quote again. A quote, I might add, that Washington never said. If you’re going to quote the Founders then at least be sure to use stuff they really said.

So, here is the situation, America needs for the Muslims to stop pirating our ships and making the American citizens slaves…they make it clear America is NOT Europe, nor is our government on a religious crusade to overtake the Muslims or be at war with them like the Catholic church and English government had. So, one statement out of context is a far cry for the idea were are not a Christian nation.

I didn’t take it out of context. I provided the entire article in question and I provided a link to the entire treaty, which is more than you’ve done with your claims so far.

Unlike your claims that the Creator mentioned in the Declaration must “obviously” be the Christian God, the article from the treaty is quite plain and not open to interpretation. Your argument also ignores the fact that the Treaty of Tripoli is part of the law of the land.

What happens if there is no recognition of a higher authority over man then himself?

Oh not this sad argument again. We’ve heard that one before. Let’s get through this nonsense then.

Then the only obvious conclusion is that man must get his direction and governance from himself in the form of civil government. But as history sadly reveals, those who would renounce God as the highest authority begin a war on him and those who would desire to believe in him. It begins by the exclusion of religious freedom from individuals in their public life because it might “offend” those who do not believe such nonsense. It then moves to a need to legislate against such people and forbid them from office. Then it moves into controlling what everybody thinks and says so as not to upset the governing powers pursuit of peace and utopia. Then comes the call for individuals not to be armed because it is the governments job to protect you just like they did when they barred religious zealots from practicing their beliefs. Then comes the thought police, then the encampments and jails.

Doesn’t take an atheist to do those things. Various Christian regimes have done much the same over the centuries. State religions aren’t know for their religious freedoms and then there’s those various and nasty Inquisitions over the years. And the Crusades, must not forget those attempts to control what other people think.

Why does this all happen, because when there is no higher power to get our freedom from, then government is your god and since men are evil by nature, then evil will rule.

And yet here we have the United States of America, founded as a purely secular government and managing to provide freedom on a scale not before seen in the world. Less free today than it once was, but still 13th or so in the world. And in this free land based on secular ideas religion has flourished and grown to the point where it may actually undermine what the Founders created. Meanwhile in Europe where State Christian religions are commonplace and supported directly by the governments in power religion is dieing a slow death.

The irony is almost overwhelming. Almost enough to make me wish we had a State religion here. But not quite.

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini…all atheists, all mass murders.

We’ll take Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mussolini, but Hitler was a Catholic in good standing right up till the day he died. As far as I know the church has never excommunicated him. None of our boys really stack up to the carnage unleashed by various Christian leaders over the centuries, though. The Catholics are responsible for a good number of deaths, but it’s not like Martin Luther can’t be credited with uncounted sufferings visited upon the Jews over the years thanks to his antisemitic writings. In fact a good argument can be made that Martin Luther is directly responsible for Hitler’s attempt at wiping out the Jews.

While inevitably, someone will write and say, “what about all the murders in the name of religion?” It must be remembered that not all religions are good ones, because tif hey are invented from the evil hearts of men, thus the same outcome is produced.

How convenient that religion gets a pass for its murderous leaders, but us atheists are fully to blame for Pol Pot. Nice magic wand waving.

However, when you look to the New Testament and find Jesus, who was not politically ambitious, but concerned about reconciling men to God, we find a whole different type of motivating power. The true message of Christ was love and forgiveness and the power through him to love your neighbor as yourself. When these principles are applied, then we have a government that allows men to seek God how they want as long as it does not hurt others pursuing of him, as well and does not hinder that pursuit. You have a government that treats each individual citizen as a special creation of God (even the ones still in the womb) and recognizes all men to be equal. That is the foundation on which this country was established, thus making it Christian based.

Wow, it’s been awhile since we had a pile of bullshit that high around here.

The true message of Christ was love and forgiveness and the power through him to love your neighbor as yourself.

Try reading the bible sometime. The message of Christ was hatred, violence and intolerance. About the kind of message one would expect from a bronze-age rabble rouser who obviously suffered from delusions of grandeur and narcissistic rage.

Christ had his pissed-off moments, mostly at religious hypocrites, and there are a few passages that suggest hellfire but who knows if that’s him or another guy of the same name.  Paul is your hellfire guy though.  If anybody screwed up Christianity, it was Paul, and all because he couldn’t just move in with Timothy and be happy about it.

I will respond with two posts…this first one deal with the response from my last post and then the argument for America being founded on Christian principles.

You’re the one who started cherry picking quotes from Washington and Jefferson to being with so don’t blame me for throwing them back into your face. If their individual religious beliefs don’t matter to the discussion then don’t pull them in to start with.

The intent was to show that while they may had differing views within their Christianity, it was still the faith in God that drove them to form the new government.

You’re a hypocrite. First you cherry pick a quote, then you bitch at me when I point out that Washington wasn’t a Christian, and then you try to use that same quote again. A quote, I might add, that

Washington never said. If you’re going to quote the Founders then at least be sure to use stuff they really said.

Kudos to you, I should have verified that statement better, won’t happen again. However, I have never said ort indicated you can’t use quotes or anything of the sort,  I just said it was a red herring argument…it is called debating…you bring your ideas, I bring mine…so please do not accuse me of getting on to you about using quotes just because I do not accept them as relevant and tell you why…that is not relevant and distracts from the debate.

And yet here we have the United States of America, founded as a purely secular government and managing to provide freedom on a scale not before seen in the world. Less free today than it once was, but still 13th or so in the world. And in this free land based on secular ideas religion has flourished and grown to the point where it may actually undermine what the Founders created. Meanwhile in Europe where State Christian religions are commonplace and supported directly by the governments in power religion is dieing a slow death.

As I will show in my next post, America has flourished both civilly and religiously because it was founded on the basis of needing divine providence and God’s law, yet allowing men to freely seek after it (or not) without persecution…like a kid should be able to pray for his food at school without a teacher getting on his or her case or threatening. The Constitution provided protection from the Government having a state sanctioned church like Europe; it did NOT void the necessity of God in government or culture (further explained in next post). I agree, a state sanctioned church will destroy because it keeps people from having the freedom of finding God on their own. However, a state free from God is void of morality and causes destruction.

How convenient that religion gets a pass for its murderous leaders, but us atheists are fully to blame for Pol Pot. Nice magic wand waving.

I did NOT give a pass to those who use religion to destroy and murder…I was demonstrating the innate evil in men’s heart regardless of atheist or religious nut if the true Gospel of Christ’s love does not dictate and govern individual’s morality. When we strive to follow the Biblical law of love it will produce what I stated in my last post…a government where individuals rights and lives are valued.

Now on to my next post.

FINAL DRAFT
“The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles….
This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government.”
(Noah Webster, History of the United States, 1832, public school textbook.)

I always so enjoy open debates! Are you ready? 

1. Looking at the frame work that led up to the founding of our nation
The colonies constitutions give a clear indication of who they were referring to when they wrote the Declaration of Independence. It is the same people, same colonies that wrote these constitutions and then brought themselves together to form a single government. Here are some examples:

A. Charter of Connecticut
For as much as it hath pleased Almighty God by the wise disposition of his divine providence so to order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and upon the River of Connectecotte and the lands thereunto adjoining; and well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God, … to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess… as also in our civil affairs to be guided and governed according to such Laws, Rules, Orders and Decrees as shall be made, ordered, and decreed as followeth: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/order.htm

B. Fundamental Agreement, or Original Constitution of the Colony of New Haven, June 4, 1639
Query I. WHETHER the scriptures do hold forth a perfect rule for the direction and government of all men in all duties which they are to perform to GOD and men, as well in families and commonwealth, as in matters of the church ? This was assented unto by all, no man dissenting, as was expressed by holding up of hands. Afterwards it was read over to them, that they might see in what words their vote was expressed. They again expressed their consent by holding up their hands, no man dissenting.  http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/ct01.htm

C. Charter of Delaware - 1701
BECAUSE no People can be truly happy, though under the greatest Enjoyment of Civil Liberties, if abridged of the Freedom of their Consciences, as to their Religious Profession and Worship: And Almighty God being the only Lord of Conscience, Father of Lights and Spirits; and the Author as well as Object of all divine Knowledge, Faith and Worship, who only doth enlighten the Minds, and persuade and convince the Understandings of People, I do hereby grant and declare, That no Person or Persons, inhabiting In this Province or Territories, who shall confess and acknowledge One almighty God, the Creator, Upholder and Ruler of the World; and professes him or themselves obliged to live quietly under the Civil Government, shall be in any Case molested or prejudiced, in his or their Person or Estate, because of his or their conscientious Persuasion or Practice, nor be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious Worship, Place or Ministry, contrary to his or their Mind, or to do or suffer any other Act or Thing, contrary to their religious Persuasion.
AND that all Persons who also profess to believe in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the World, shall be capable (notwithstanding their other Persuasions and Practices in Point of Conscience and Religion) to serve this Government in any Capacity, both legislatively and executively, he or they solemnly promising, when lawfully required, Allegiance to the King as Sovereign, and Fidelity to the Proprietary and Governpr, and taking the Attests as now established by the Law made at Newcastle, in the Year One Thousand and Seven Hundred, entituled, An Act directing the Attests of several Officers and Ministers, as now amended and confirmed this present Assembly.  http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/de01.htm
To see all the charters, please go to: - http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/statech.htm you will find all but one charter makes reference to God and many of them to Jesus and the Bible.

When you read the Declaration we find these words
“…station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…”

Based on historical documents in the charters we see they were not referring to just any religious deity other then God and Jesus of the Bible. Also this shows the culture and what drove the people to seek after a better form of government, hence, we are a nation built on Christian principles.

To argue that the Consitution was purely seculer becuase they did not put the word “God” in it is really rather idealistic when almost every other document that was written to support and make the Constitution was submerged in references to God. When attempts were made to add God in the preamble were not passed, NOWHERE do you find the explanation from anybody that it was becuase the Constitution was to be purely secular. That thought is pure speculation and does not fit the historical documentation.

2. The Treaty of Tripoli was a good point, though I felt I explained it well…however after further research, t seems we were both incorrect for the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified and an explanation of the mishap is in full detail and to back it up…here you go:

As even a casual examination of the annotated translation of 1930 shows, the Barlow translation is at best a poor attempt at a paraphrase or summary of the sense of the Arabic; and even as such its defects throughout are obvious and glaring. Most extraordinary (and wholly unexplained) is the fact that Article 11 of the Barlow translation, with its famous phrase, “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,” does not exist at all. There is no Article 11. The Arabic text which is between Articles 10 and 12 is in form a letter, crude and flamboyant and withal quite unimportant, from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. How that script came to be written and to be regarded, as in the Barlow translation, as Article 11 of the treaty as there written, is a mystery and seemingly must remain so. Nothing in the diplomatic correspondence of the time throws any light whatever on the point
Source: Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America.
Edited by Hunter Miller
Volume 2
Documents 1-40 : 1776-1818
Washington : Government Printing Office, 1931.
USMARC Cataloging Record
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/barmenu.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/barmenu.htm

In fact the final draft was written in Italian is translated with the proper reading…funny, it seems to be sure to emphasize the point of our Christian heritage because nearly every paragraph begins with “Praise be to God”

Source: Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America.
Edited by Hunter Miller
Volume 2
Documents 1-40 : 1776-1818
Washington : Government Printing Office, 1931.
USMARC Cataloging Record
The Barbary Treaties : Tripoli 1796
The Annotated Translation of 1930
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796e.htm

3. Forefathers were Diests
The belief in God’s providence was so widespread at America’s founding that George Washington credits God’s providential control over creation for our victory in the War for Independence and for the framing and ratification of the Constitution in his Inaugural Address

“it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States.
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres13.html

This also points to the fact that AFTER Constitution the reference to God direction and law were paramount to the new country.
In his Farewell Address he says “.probable that I may have committed many errors. Whatever they may be, I fervently beseech the Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which they may tend.”
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm
Thomas Jefferson - and the 55 signers of the Declaration of Independence - stated they had a firm reliance on Divine Providence for the support of the Declaration in the closing paragraph of the Declaration itself.
George Mason based his warnings at the Constitutional Convention on God’s providential control of the affairs of nations when he said the practice of slavery would lead to a national calamity.
It also appears in the Federalist Papers written by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay explaining the ideas of the constitution and why the states ought to stay united. In Federalist No.2, John Jay credits God’s providential control of creation not only for victory in the War for Independence but also for the very characteristics of America’s land and people. John Jay was the first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court:
So, with all this here with references to say this country is not a Christian based country is pure illogical based on the drive of not wanting to humble oneself to the almighty God who is providential in his workings for the salvation of men.
http://www.citizensoldier.net

It has been a real joy speaking with you and I hope we can both walk away with something from this discussion.

Try reading the bible sometime. The message of Christ was hatred, violence and intolerance. About the kind of message one would expect from a bronze-age rabble rouser who obviously suffered from delusions of grandeur and narcissistic rage.

Please forgive my scriptural ignorance…could you please be as so kind as to give the scriptural references that shows this about Jesus??
Thanks!