Les: I’m actually surprised that DOF would refer to me as being the “most saintly” as that’s the last description I’d guess someone would view me as.

Since we know human memory is constructive, maybe he’s re-building something that’s more prophet-like from your wolfman header from Halloween

Elwed: but you also have to understand that encouraging them to come back for more is not universally appreciated.

You’re probably right about that as a generalization, although I suspect that I’m not the only one that occasionally likes to read and respond to some of the loonies.  I like to think of myself as having patience, but I also think DC has me beat by orders of magnitude in that department.  I accept the trollishness of trolls, and don’t really try to turn them away from the dark side, so to speak.  I like to point out where their logic fails them, and invite them to embrace their own inner troll.

DOF: Once in a while you have to tilt at windmills.

Agreed, although there is that camp that claims the saying, “It doesn’t matter whether you win or lose, but how you play the game,” was written by a loser.  You’re right that you have to pick your battles, and that you might occasionally wind up selecting one that looks like a lost cause. 

I think DOF, Elwed, KPG, Patness, Brock, and Les are on the right track though when they argue about the limited power of rationality when attempting to engage a true believer on something that pushes them outside their comfort zone.  If you’re going to keep at this noble task, DC, might I suggest that you hunt for a more apropos avatar?

I was thinking something more like Sisyphus.

Les is the most patient person I know in terms of point-by-point rebuttals. My take is that some people will never know how wrong they are and it’s not worth my time trying to disabuse them of their notions.

What DC does amounts to proselytizing for rationality and I’m waiting for the “planting the seed” line. Where Les debates, DC tries to convert.

If we’re honest, we’re all amenable to reason, except for our personal hot button issues.

Les is the most patient person I know in terms of point-by-point rebuttals.

That’s what I am referring to.  I’ve seen Les pick carefully through a steaming pile of nonsense to try to present reason to the one who produced it.  I’m good for a point or two, then I start saying things like “go read some real sources and come back when you’re ready” which is indicative of a short fuse.

I think the best thing I can do is wait and see what comes up, and deal with what the trolls directly say point by point. I think I had energy in this area that I needed to get rid of in order to relax, and that was one of the reasons I came to SEB, now that’s done I’ll take things as they come and see how it pans out. I no longer have the energy to run an active campaign, more just deal with what comes.

I’m ok with picking battles that part of me knows I’ll lose if it’s something I needed a perspective on. I’ve lost (and learnt from) so many before SEB that winning doesn’t matter, just want to see what string of thought holds up the longest out of curiousity and identifying where and why it ends or goes beyond explainable words - I will fight along a string of thought as a way of testing it’s limits, it’s the limits where two known strings things are forced to link if they are to apply

I once had a manager who was very similar to Les, even in apearence, but wasn’t him. His view of himself contradicted his deep nature, and it’s not unusual among people on all levels to paint themselves the opposite colour to what they really are; true bastards paint themselves as good, make you dependant on them, and manipulate ethics to paint black those they can’t influence, they rely on psychological games to make people think they are good/bad and to keep victims in the frame of mind they can control, this has a lot of momentum because it exploits the vulnerability of self-opinion. An important function of SEB as an open forum is to help people identify the real bastards.

The title ‘stupid evil bastard’ struck me as an exact contradiction between nature and self-image. Les even said when explaing the coice of the title that it was how the papers made him feel.

DoF: I’m good for a point or two, then I start saying things ...

Sometimes I’m not even good for a point or two before I start frothing. 

DC: just want to see what string of thought holds up the longest out of curiosity and identifying where and why it ends or goes beyond explainable words

Good luck on your search for the Holy Grail. 
These people will still insist your efforts are the devil’s work and if they had the power they’d eliminate you in a heartbeat as they are not interested in logic or reason … let alone the freedom for others to think differently.

It’s scary to think how influential people like that can get. Always seemed wierd to me how murder is in their view less bad than something god probably couldn’t care less about, like being gay. I guess faith is an easier option and people always like to jump on a bandwagon. Good thing for avatars.

Neither side of faith vs reason will be completely eliminated, even if one suppresses the other. Their view of faith might be adjusted to pose themselves in a good light, but it’s probably not possible not to break one of their rules at some point in their own life, and maybe that’ll make them re-think, or at least re-adjust, but they’ll only break off when the last few supporting strings are cut.

If it ever came to inquisition, a heretic like me would have no quarms about straight lying, provided you knew what the survival answer was first, otherwise claim apathy, if that’ll work. I think in Henry VIII ‘s time people had to keep changing their religous minds, or hiding.

At least in britain the war on terror is less a crusade and more humanitarian ()

DC, link should be a href, not mailto: military wing of oxfam. That should do it for interested parties.

whoops wrong button, thanks for re-thingying it

DC, as a parent you learn to pick your battles. And remember - you can’t save them all

I guess it’s a different situation with a child. Hopefully life won’t get that complicated and I’ll manage to avoid all the things that involve responsibility - I wouldn’t truse me with a child , or anything else living for that matter

When God talked to me he said nothing about gays or abortion.  These topics were not an issue with him when he talked to me.  Gods issue was the meaning of First is Last and Last is First.  He talked at length on the meaning of First is Last.  This is not an issue with me, I am Melanie, this is Gods issue.  God brought this up.  I don’t go to Church, I didn’t care about the meaning of First is Last.  I asked a Russian Orthodoxe Priest that I saw at the mall today, March 24, 2007.  He had a different meaning for First is Last.  For over 2000 years no one has figured this out.  After I told you what God told me, it seemed rather simple.  Oh, that makes sence.  But for over 2000 years every Church has a different meaning.  Why, because it is beyond their thinking.  Then you brought up what Mark Twain wrote, like he is some kind of genius.  He wrote a book, I wrote a book too.  I am not a genius either.  Some times we are just wrong.  I am willing to say when I was wrong are you?

Oh, shit, now Melanie’s back....

Fuck, I need a fucking drink. Somebody bring me some whiskey, ‘kay?

Melanie who?

Dear Melanie
During the many years of walking with the Lord, there have been times that I have been slandered, defrauded or unfairly attacked. I have had plenty of opportunities to be embittered by injustice. Not every wound was healed instantly nor each injustice swiftly remedied. Jesus said, “By your endurance you will gain your lives” (Luke 21:19). The Message translation renders this: “Staying with it - that’s what is required. Stay with it to the end. You won’t be sorry; you’ll be saved.” In the final analysis, being wounded or suffering loss is not the issue – Paul said he “suffered the loss of all things.” The real issue is that we “may gain Christ” (Phil. 3:8).  Forgiveness is the answer.

Sam: During the many years of walking with the Lord, there have been times that I have been slandered, defrauded or unfairly attacked.

Slandered? Unfairly attacked?

Sam, I understand you’re one of those “invisible sky daddy” people, but perhaps you might want to read the entire thread before jumping to Melanie’s defense.

She wrote a book about her dream, the dream where Jesus told her who killed JFK.

So you’ll have to forgive us if we spend some time pointing and laughing, ‘kay?

Melanie: Gods issue was the meaning of First is Last and Last is First

In what context? It doesn’t apply to every situation in life, such as which car queing behind the traffic lights is first to set off. If hypothetically god really did wanted you to understand this, he would tell you in what circumstance he means. I would also think if it really did happen, then he would want you to think about it, not just dismiss it as his issue. I also doubt that a god existing since the beginning of time is still struggling with a concept and decided to ask humans for help, so it’s probably not an issue for him to deal with, that is if he existed.

Melanie: Why, because it is beyond their thinking

From god’s perspective, what would be the point of creating people unable to work something out and yet give them hints so as to let them ponder over endlessly? What could be so wrong with people understanding god’s thought that you should decide to restrain them? If there is the possibility of people doing something wrong, why give them the ability in the first place to do or think these things. I’m of the personal opinion that given time and the right conditions, anyone can learn anything. Indeed what would be the need for physical life supposing you were able to create absolutely inately perfect people with no need to be tested or put through any hardship?

DC, I love it when you talk dirty.
I think you’re wasting time in assuming Melanie contemplates.
I get the impression she’s just a surface junky.

I’ve been contemplating a certain beard.

God traditionally has a big beard, can in turns be loving, forgiving, and angry, has created a place that he has allowed to be populated, but can get rid of anyone on a whim, for no reason but his own, and has created an Avatar, who he progressed from baby to level 70 (minimum). So have decided.

I BELIEVE IN LES.
(I’m expecting at least a high priestship for starting this religeon)

Honestly, I’d make a very piss-poor God. Not that any of the other proffered Gods are much better, but still.

I’d have to delegate a lot of stuff - “You handle this universe; I’m going for coffee.”

Are there any bald gods?

You may be able to delegate the judgement bit to the person themselves after you’ve ‘enlightened’ them so they can see for themselves what effect they had. It would be difficult/near impossible to give an accurate overall score but you judge the individual deeds based on the person’s intentions and what they knew. Since there are a lot of people and a lot of stuff goes on, there would simply be too much for any one person to handle in real time - if you could pause time, look around and think about it, also you would need to see everywhere at once.

Other than that, once you make a standard model of universe, you can pretty much let it run, creating a laws of thermodynamics as an excuse not to intervene in most events. If it goes wrong, just try again. Without a universe to run I bet being god would be pretty boring. Maybe we’re just entertainment where it doesn’t really matter to the player what happens, as in games like simcity

It has occurred to me that our universe could be Sim-Universe running on some computer of sorts.  Makes no difference to us, of course, unless someone hits the reset button.

Are we on a backup? If the universe were restored to a previous image on restart, I don’t imagine we’d notice anything. Everything we experienced before (after?) that would be part of a history that doesn’t exist.

I think you’ve hit on the basis of an alternate-history/future timeline comic book series.