Hi, Les.  Your right I don’t have a firm grasp on reality.  What would you think it is like having the unreal(spirit world) communicating with you? It was very difficult. I think about Jesus every day. I think about how he died for us.  I think about how much he loves us.  I emailed Church people first looking for help and or answers. Some of them were flat out wrong in their teachings.  They know less than I do and I don’t go to church. If you want to take that attitude toward Jesus you may have a big surpise when you leave this place.  You never know when the reaper comes and when he does come it will be a surprise.  Jesus told me that.  Believe it or not.

Melanie writes..

Your right I don’t have a firm grasp on reality.

That says it all right there. Still there’s hope for you as the first step in overcoming a problem is recognizing that you have one.

I suppose if you’re happy in your delusion then you can keep it so long as Jesus doesn’t start telling you to kill your kids or anyone else for that matter. As long as you’re a harmless nut then so be it, but if you start trying to hurt people then I’m afraid they’ll have to lock you up.

Know what when you say mean things. Why should I give you proof.  If you say hateful things to God.  Why should he talk to you or help you.  When you are sick, in danger and alone, is there anyone there to help you? One day we all die. What then?  What happens? You don’t seem to have an answer.  Do you understand how complicated life is? That is why scientists have taken an interest in intelligent design.  That is why you found me there.  God is the greatest scientist ever.  He created you.  I think that is huge. If you don’t have time for God I would think he is to busy for you too.

Bye, Les, as this site reads, Stupid Evil Bastard and then there is a picture of you. Smile. You can write all the means things you want.  WE all have to atone for the things that we do on earth.
Smile.  God has more giga bites of memory than Bill Gates.  And there are 6 billion Chinese people and he knows each and everyone of them. On top of that he knows what each and everyone of them think and their works.  That is a lot of memory.  That is mega giga giga giga...... bites.
Smile, I didn’t make that up.

Melanie comes back to babble some more…

Know what when you say mean things. Why should I give you proof.  If you say hateful things to God.  Why should he talk to you or help you.  When you are sick, in danger and alone, is there anyone there to help you?

I didn’t say anything mean that’s just the way you decided to interpret it. I had no malice in mind when I typed those words and I was being completely sincere. I think you have a real problem and I think you need to seek help for it, but I also realize you probably won’t because you mistakenly think it’s a good thing.

As for proof, I seriously doubt you have anything to offer. Nothing beyond your claims and certainly no reason why I should accept your claims as reality.

I’m not worried about God speaking to me because I don’t believe God exists to speak to anyone. I’ve yet to see any evidence first hand that would suggest the existence of a God and nothing you have provided thus far gives me any reason to change that opinion.

One day we all die. What then?  What happens? You don’t seem to have an answer.

How would you know? You haven’t bothered to find out if I have an answer. For the record: When we die we, as a conscious entity, cease to exist. There is no afterlife. There is no heaven or hell. There is not eternity spent in some “other place” either basking in the brilliance of some divine being or subject to endless torture by some hellish fiend. Death is oblivion except for the memories in the minds of those we leave behind.

Do you understand how complicated life is? That is why scientists have taken an interest in intelligent design.

I understand quite well how complicated life is and there are very few legitimate scientists who have taken an interest in Intelligent Design.

That is why you found me there.  God is the greatest scientist ever.  He created you.  I think that is huge. If you don’t have time for God I would think he is to busy for you too.

God doesn’t exist. He’s a figment of your delusional imagination. He’s a fiction. A cosmic bogyman invented by man to control his fellows and explain away the scary unknown. He didn’t create man, man created him. He shares all the same flaws and failings as any human.

Bye, Les, as this site reads, Stupid Evil Bastard and then there is a picture of you. Smile. You can write all the means things you want.

The joke’s on you and you don’t even know it. But I’m not sad to think you won’t be back.

WE all have to atone for the things that we do on earth.

Only to our fellow humans, and even then some people manage never to have to atone for their wrongs. The universe doesn’t care if justice wins the day. That’s a human construct and nothing more.

Smile.  God has more giga bites of memory than Bill Gates.  And there are 6 billion Chinese people and he knows each and everyone of them. On top of that he knows what each and everyone of them think and their works.  That is a lot of memory.  That is mega giga giga giga...... bites.
Smile, I didn’t make that up.

Nope, lots of other people came up with that same silly nonsense long before you did. Go play with your invisible friend and try not to hurt anyone.

Oh my:

Les: I’m not worried about God speaking to me because I don’t believe God exists to speak to anyone.

Now that’s just crazy talk, right there.

Les, the next obvious question, “Have you sold your soul for a DVD yet?”

Melanie: And there are 6 billion Chinese people and ...

Now Melanie, you don’t have to play the “must be billions and billions of Chinese” card against Les’ mean logicmon.  The important thing to remember is you don’t have to rely on facts or logic or or rationality or intelligence or even a completely intact central nervous system to justify your faith.  Faith like yours is its own justification.  You already seem to be at least half way toward accepting that - so just let go. 

As for the rest of us, we’ll keep our feet on the ground and our brains in the on position.

Anyone know where I can get a cheap videocam?

Melanie: And there are 6 billion Chinese people and he knows each and everyone of them. On top of that he knows what each and everyone of them think and their works.

Sorry, Melanie, you’re wrong on this too. The world’s population is 6 billion. China’s population is approximately 1.26 billion.

God doesn’t do China{ They have a different Sheriff.

Your right I don’t have a firm grasp on reality.

Well at least you know. Now, the next step is to go to good psychiatrist to get you on meds that can fix your schizophrenia or at least put you under supervised care where you’re no danger to the rest of the world once Jesus escalates past telling you about murders that happened decades ago and progresses to telling you that you need to hack apart Les to get into the Holy Kingdom or something.

And there are 6 billion Chinese people and he knows each and everyone of them.

Not to argue what is an obvious miseducation on your part, but if God knows six billion Chinamen he can’t do math.

Melanie - I will tell you from the start I am not attacking you, I am patient and am trying to help by thinking about the issues raised.

Don’t give up on us, because I won’t give up on you

You do seem to need some ass-kicking though to learn the ways of this blog and for your own benefit, to give you food for thought. I won’t intervene, it’s up to you to earn peace with us. Call it tough love.

My question is: “Why isn’t Jesus talking to YOU”?

If the god hypothesis is correct, then we must conclude that we are made to forget about many aspects of afterlife. If we did all know about it and take it for fact we wouldn’t think in the same way and so wouldn’t have the oppertunity to explore the concepts leading up to it, much like being told a law of science doesn’t motivate you to question it unless you’re not satisfied with it as complete - there are two types of scientist - those with phonomenal rote memory who can apply rules that they don’t want to explore, and those who were forced to explore and understand the subject on a deep level by limited memory - this is partly why the best scientists are absent minded.

It could be that the purpose of life is to get away from knowing the end result and getting away from a hypothetical god’s love for the time and space to think.

What happens? You don’t seem to have an answer

We long for the answer, partly for our own peace of mind, we’re just not satisfied with what we’ve heard so far. We’re not at peace with just accepting a partial theory, and that also means we don’t accept blind faith, this is what motivates us to thought.

Do you understand how complicated life is? That is why scientists have taken an interest in intelligent design

Scientists that do take an interest in intelligent design are not exploring the complexities, they are trying to find reason behind the simple and seemingly arbitery rules of science which don’t justify themselves, questions like “why does time go forward?”, “why did the big bang happen?”, “why are forces as strong as they are?”, “why do positive and negative charges attract?”, “why are physical constants constant?”, “why do positive and negative charges attract?”, “why does quantisation apply?”, “would the uncertainty principle be open to manipulation by a possible god?”, etc.

What these scientists know is that a god theory must be linked to the laws of science in the physical world, in order to interact - otherwise we couldn’t physically move, couldn’t enter or leave the body/physical universe either side of life, and god couldn’t have instigated the big bang or other form of creation

If you don’t have time for God I would think he is to busy for you too

You don’t give god enough credit. When you have love for people you have patience, and a loving god wouldn’t give up on anyone or write them off.

That is a lot of memory.  That is mega giga giga giga...... bites.

What stores it? A computer or other memory thing would have to exist in another dimension. You have to ask why it would.

God is the greatest scientist ever.  He created you.  I think that is huge.

Existence is not necessarily a good thing, it’s an instinct to like it that makes people afraid of the idea of oblivion. In permanent oblivion you have no commitment to conciousness or self sustenance, it’s the only time when you really do rest, because it’s the only time when there are no rules or expectations. I have to wonder that if a god did want us to move in a positive direction why that would be so, and why should positive necessarily be associated with good.

Your right I don’t have a firm grasp on reality

I actually said exactly that at work today, I live more in my imagination than anywhere, it’s where I can experiment with events that havn’t happened. Not feeling physically in touch with the world (as I do early in the morning) is the kind of feeling that can get you run over, so be careful and keep a check as to where you ‘float’.
Don’t attack Melanie just because she opened a door that can be exploited for attack

Melanie - I will tell you from the start I am not attacking you, I am patient and am trying to help by thinking about the issues raised.

Don’t give up on us, because I won’t give up on you

Please don’t encourage her. Most of the loonies that show up in the comments here won’t go away on their own volition. She may be crazy, but at least Melanie recognizes when she’s in over her head.

OK, if anyone would ever like to speak with me outside of SEB, feel free to email me:

That way we can keep this stuff from anoying people whilst I can deal with them in a controlled setting.
I’m free and confidential, and more than willing to help anyone. Some things may be out of my depth though so don’t make high expectations.

I just get the feeling that very gradually we can get through to these people through persistent reasoning, Aaron and ‘frank the tank’ kept a negative stance but their comments gradually withdrew from certain aspects of arguement until they stopped commenting; I would like to think this was so they could think about the issue, because they realised they couldn’t win that kind of debate in a reasoned playground like this, where we are immune to drive-bys. I hope they leave different people than they came.

In Aaron’s case he may have left disillusioned- I know I deliberately ticked him off, but he needed radical thought on a deep level, I was trying to showing the trust I had by opening up and to push him, perhaps too hard in the end. Hopefully he’ll re-read the thread at a later date when it’s had time to sink in, to not be able to argue back with something that goes deeply against your principles is a shock to the system. It could take years until he’s ready to come back, depending on when he will allow himself to think about it and how it ties into his situation. He may die first.

I applaud your patience, DC.  But even the most saintly of us (which is to say, Les) wear thin eventually.  Just try not to be bitter when that happens

Thanks DOF,
I can only blame myself - and when it happens I will take a holiday from here for a bit to avoid hurting anyone. In some ways I might be doing it because I need it to happen.

I have wrestled with that, as there have been well-meaning whacko visitors who were (I realized only after fisking them) quite vulnerable.  But I keep commenting anyway, it’s a learning curve and this forum has been incredibly helpful on it.

And there are some people with whom there’s no need to be gentle, or who are just begging for it…

It’s a generic observation (that I’ve noticed applies to me over time) but it seems to me that people will unknowingly do the things that benefit their personality in the long run - their conscious perception of reality and what will happen gets warped so that they will make other concious decisions that essentially throw themselves into the teeth of exactly what they fear, an example would be the well intentioned theists trying to save us from hell who realise it’s not clear cut, or the asshats who, as you said, are begging for the experiences that will stop them from being asshats. In my case it’s de-clouded illusions in my perception, a few years ago I acted like an asshat only because I was unaware of the effects I was having.

What Les said.

(DC) I just get the feeling that very gradually we can get through to these people through persistent reasoning

This is known as the rationalistic fallacy. And don’t forget the classic Heinlein quote:

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

My method won’t work if you give up before completion, and demands you to be completely emotionally detatched to always stay within reason - using the quote, as soon as the person teaching the ‘pig’ gets annoyed, the pig will flat out reject any ideas they were taught because they have an excuse to put all the blame for the pain of thought on the teacher. However although everyone may have their limits as to how persistent and reasoned they can be, I only need to extend my limits to what’s necessary to complete the transition for the given person.

My thoughts on this come from changes to myself as an example - I personally have very much changed in the last few years by thinking on people’s reasoning because pressures in life forced me to adapt because I had reached my capacity for conflict. Capacity to think on an issue varies, but some engagement with the issue is uavoidable for everyone, because they also have a limit as to how much pressure they can withstand from people in everyday life from not developing on it, such as conflict. - beyond a point the pain of thinking is less worse than the pain of conflict when someone’s broken down - this is where ass-kicking can prep someone and help them reach their conflict limit quicker, making them think, but it must come from people who aren’t trying to teach reason in order for the person teaching to maintain the link to the ‘pig’.

Once the ‘pig’ starts to listen, it gets easier and easier, it’s just starting it off that’s difficult. People wouldn’t open more to thought over time if there wasn’t a capacity to do so

Reason only works on the reasonable. The pig never really starts to listen. That’s just anthropromorfication (and I’m not looking up the spelling for that) on your part.

Still, if you enjoy beating your head against a brick wall, knock yourself out.....

My thinking, DC, is while your efforts are commendable, I’m rather surprised that you can’t find other things to do - or that you hold helping the unreasoning at a higher value than a great many other things.

I’ve been known to argue during term reviews, so I’m known for it too.

But in general, anyone who wants to learn can start by using Google and second that by listening intently where they go. A drive-by criticism is curt, brash, and typically inconsiderate of the issue at hand. Such a commenter is very unlikely to have wanted to learn, and either was lacking in the desire or patience to learn. Hence, trying to reason with those commenters seems more an exercise in my patience than that of the commenter.

While you are, IMO, correct in suggesting that it’s a matter of economy (better conflict resolution), you have to realize that almost all conflict can be resolved through ignorance. The only conflicts that can’t are those that seem to threaten harm as a consequence of ignorance - which is, itself, mediated by the degree of ignorance in play. Frankly, I don’t find people to be more open to thought over time - just more apathetic and less concerned with conflict in general. If that’s the case, how can conflict drive a capacity for learning?

Just my perspective, mind…

Sorry DC, but I think you’ve failed to figure Melanie out. She’s just looking for positive attention without having to earn it. When the Creator of the Universe has chosen to confide in you, that’s worth all the positive attention you could ever desire from others.

She craves being noticed and thought highly of and she can’t imagine that not every site would value her accomplishment. SEB readers would notice her but likely would not think highly of her just for that. Still, she has a firm belief that what she says she experienced is worthy of praise and envy. SEB is just an anomaly to her.

Encourage her if you must but you’re playing her game.

I’m actually surprised that DOF would refer to me as being the “most saintly” as that’s the last description I’d guess someone would view me as.

Pain in the ass seems more likely.

And what KPG said.

DC, it’s your prerogative to waste your time counseling drive-by posters (the ones Les called loonies), but you also have to understand that encouraging them to come back for more is not universally appreciated.

I need to think about this

Patness: or that you hold helping the unreasoning at a higher value than a great many other things

This is because I don’t want to see people hurt by the unreasonable, they affect everyone close to them, and that can have secondary effects. Whilst we at SEB can blank them, their relatives and work colleages can’t, and I really don’t want to see anyone hurt on a deep level, especially if I feel like I might be able to do something about it.

Patness: you have to realize that almost all conflict can be resolved through ignorance. The only conflicts that can’t are those that seem to threaten harm as a consequence of ignorance

Ignorance does protect the person who is ignorant from conflict, making them more tenatous, and it also does harm others, it is this that I want to minimise, kind of preventative rather than reactive

Sorry DC, but I think you’ve failed to figure Melanie out

Brock is probably right, to use different words and generalise, I’m not a good judge of character, I can only try. I don’t like to think of people in that kind of light, it may be true, but I hoped to see the ass-kicking purging that kind of thing, because a good ass-kicking to me a couple of years back broke me down and made me rebuild. I am seeing only what I want to, but that illusion has made life easier and helped me get on with people, because transgressions don’t even register and don’t make me feel like a victim - Illusion cannot be a bad tool if it protects without harm to anyone, like if everyone forgot about unhappiness

Brock: Encourage her if you must but you’re playing her game

I would not be giving everything she wants - she would not get concencus from me and I would pick apart unreasoned comments until she realised they are not changing anyone’s mind

elwed: but you also have to understand that encouraging them to come back for more is not universally appreciated

I understand that, I need to think of a way of doing what I’m trying to do with minimal fallout, maybe try to turn a troll. It’s a different level of debate essentially.

You never know, DC, maybe you’ll succeed, and if nothing else there is personal value in the attempt.  Sometimes I wonder if I’ve every convinced anyone of anything but what would I think of myself if I’d never made the effort?  I’d just be a leaf, floating downstream.  Once in a while you have to tilt at windmills.

DC,

I’m not a good judge of character

Dude, that’s the part you must have down pat if you’re into deprogramming True Believers™.