IDM: I believe that the main difference between the Religious Right and the Nazis is that they would have “love in their heart” as they herded homosexuals into Zyklon-B “showers”. 

Members of the Christian Right often include passing references to “love” in their rhetoric. I seem to recall an op-ed by Wichita, Kansas Southern Baptist preacher Terry Fox in which he insisted something to the effect of “we persecute and try to make life hell for gays because we really love them.“

I am convinced that, like most of what comes from the mouths of members of the far Right, it’s mostly empty rhetoric. I have a difficult time believing that people like Fox have much genuine love in their hearts.

zilch: I know (at least by hearsay) whereof I speak, living in a former Nazi country, and knowing former Nazis and current Neonazis: while there may be parallels, we have a long way to go before any comparison with Nazis is justified.

How much further do they have to go?  One Neonazi group in the US calls itself “Aryan Nations”, the Aryan Nations shield consists of several elements described as:

1. The Crown: The symbol of God’s sovereignty.

2. The Three Jewels of the Crown symbolize the perfection of the Holy Trinity.

3. The Shield: A symbol of our Christian Faith.

4. The Two-Edged Sword: A symbol of truth and ... the instrument of His ... [sic.]

5. The Revolving Resurrection Cross: Centered on the Sword of Truth, symbolizing the returning to righteousness of our Race.

6. The Cross Of Jacob: The Three bars on each of the four corners symbolize the Twelve Tribes of His Racial Nations.

7. The Square: Outline symbolizes the Divinely appointed four-square formation and order.

It sure seems like Neonazis == Aryan Nations == right wing Christian.

Im holding out for when the christians are truly 100% running the show, and they force everyone who isnt christian to wear an armband of their particular faith. 

Either that, or they make the non-christian job marked a pain in the ass to get into or print a second form of currency, or simply giving every bigot in the bible belt a limitless gun permit and told to go kill people.

I dont know, but I do know that given the evidence provided, and personal experiences, that these guys aren’t too far from nazis, and victims of stockholm syndrome to boot.

First of all, note that I did not say that the tactics that the Christian Right is currently employing are exactly like or even close to those used by pre-WWII Nazis. I definitely do see some parallels, however.

For the sake of discussion, it may be useful to briefly analyze the Christian Right. On the one hand, we have social conservatives in this country, but not all of them would necessarily fit the term “Christian Right” (although they do often get designated thus). Taking that a step further, we have more directly religious movements such as The Christian Coalition or “pro-family” groups. It would be hyperbolic to term these outfits “fascist” or even “totalitarian,“ though they are certainly far Right, and in my opinion they are a threat to our freedom and should be monitored.

Going even further, we have Christian Reconstructionists who, while not quite fascist, are certainly highly totalitarian.

IDM, you mentioned Aryan Nations. This is truly a fascist group, and I would argue that it wouldn’t even accurately be labeled “Christian Right.“ Christian Identity is a similar movement.

Zilch: ... but I must agree with Consi here that comparisons with Nazis are a bit exaggerated.

Thankfully you added:

At least so far.

We know what the Xian Right’s view in on Abortion, Same-sex marriage, Gays, Euthanasia, Social Security, the superiority and truth of the xian bible and xianity, Atheists, Evolution, The Rapture and a few other things.
Strangely enough they equate very well with Islam’s thoughts on the same things except Bible = Koran and Xianity = Islam.
If the Xian Right was able to enact all their beliefs into Law there’d be fuck all difference between them and the Nazis.
Then again I’m more Libertarian and more Left than both the Darling Lama and the Beautiful Mandela, so I’m probably slightly biased and abnormally apprehensive. 

How much further do they have to go?

They have to go further in numbers and power to be meaningfully compared to Third Reich Nazis, itdontmatter.  Of course, for any wacky, nasty, ugly worldview, you can always find adherents.  The important question is, how much power do they have in society?  There’s simply no comparison to living in “Amerika” now and in Germany in 1940.  Anyone who likens Bush to Hitler, as some on the left are fond of doing, doesn’t know much about history.

Not that there aren’t disturbing parallels, and not that the Christian Right is not a threat to civil rights and rational politics- we might not have gone to Iraq if it hadn’t been for the support of the conservative Christians, for instance.  I somehow doubt, though, that America could end up very much like Nazi Germany did, if for no other reason that information is not so easily controlled nowadays.  But that’s just speculation, and no excuse for complacency.

Sadie:

First of all, note that I did not say that the tactics that the Christian Right is currently employing are exactly like or even close to those used by pre-WWII Nazis.

That was not how I initially understood it.

IDM:

I believe that Sadie outlined the definitional problem that exists in your presentation.

LJ:

I know your views on free speech, freedom of the press, and the right to have unbridled or bridled sex in your bedroom.  You and I are the same.  Yet, we are not.  Aside from the fact that you are near nursing home age, while I am not, and you choose a much shaggier approach to grooming than myself, we differ on a great number of issues.  It would hardly be fair to tell people we are identical.  Selective sampling shows nothing but selective sampling.

zilch:

Anyone who likens Bush to Hitler, as some on the left are fond of doing, doesn’t know much about history.

I’m wondering if I need to reexamine this closely, because I agree with you.

You’d better reexamine it really closely, Consi.  Heaven forbid you should agree with me about anything.

Aside from the fact that you are near nursing home age ...

No doubt about, Consi - you sure know how to make an old man laugh. 
Thank you. 
Now leave me alone to imagine bridled and unbridled sex - wheelchair or no wheelchair; that is the question … To shag or not to shag …
Whether it be nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune; or to move your arms, swim and save yourself … 

Selective sampling shows nothing but selective sampling.

I’m probably wrong, but I think that when anyone choses to sample something as a sample, isn’t it always, on one level or another, selective? 

I made a quiche for lunch and cut it into four.
What happened in my head to help me choose the quarter I chose – knowing I was gonna put 2 pieces in the freezer and leave one out for lunch tomorrow?
And even if we use the word ‘random’ there’s still an element of choice, though the reasoning of choice may be somewhat less knowable.

I’m listening to Drive with Julia Lester on ABC Classic FM - choose the ‘Listen Now’ alternative.
There’s some really beautiful guitar & harp sounds happening.
Being an old, near nursing home, man and not too au fait with 21st century techno stuff, can anyone out there tell me if you can pick it up?
I really would be interested to know.
It’d even get me to say ‘Far-out, man’ or something as equally inane.

There’s simply no comparison to living in “Amerika” now and in Germany in 1940.  Anyone who likens Bush to Hitler, as some on the left are fond of doing, doesn’t know much about history.

The comparison would be to Hitler before he took power, not 1940.  If we were in Germany before Hitler became dictator, then I’m sure there would be Germans who wouldn’t believe that things would go as far as the Holocaust.  Remember, he had it kept secret from his own people, for obvious reasons.

That having been said, I agree with you and Consi (and no… the sky isn’t falling)  There is no comparison between Hitler and Bush.  I don’t think Bush could become like The Monster.  The danger is that the Bush administration is paving the way for someone who might.

Zilch: we might not have gone to Iraq if it hadn’t been for the support of the conservative Christians

Mmm. You don’t think that’s a fairly sizable cock-up? 
Someone more emotive may have said:
Fucking hell!! $300+ billion is just a - a - a drop in someone’s jesus-saving bucket??
As Webs point to in the   De-fucking-Vos thread - Crooks and Liars has an interesting ‘Rep. Tim Ryan Blasts the Administration’s Iraq Record’ video explaining what could be done with $8.4 Billion per month, $1.9 billion per week, $275 million per day, $11.5 million per day ... that is currently spent by Mr Bush’s desire to help his Saudi mates ... just THINK!!!
How much fucking beer would that buy?? 

Me: $11.5 million per day

Shoulda been per fucking hour. 

As one who has, on occasion, likened the Bush Administration to that of the up and coming Nazi regime in the past, I can admit that I always get uncomfortable when I see things that appear (to me) to be history repeating itself.

My optimistic side likes to believe that we’re not so stupid as a nation that we’d actually allow ourselves to fall prey to the same idiocy that brought about Nazi Germany, but my cynical side knows it’s not entirely beyond the realm of possibility. When I force myself to be completely honest I have to admit that we’re not even close to that as of yet, but I don’t even want it to even seem like we might be kinda sorta headed in that direction even if it’s by accident and we didn’t really mean to.

I made a quiche for lunch and cut it into four.
What happened in my head to help me choose the quarter I chose

Of course, you chose the piece with the biggest chunk of salmon in it, LJ.  Who knows whether you’ll be able to stagger out of your wheelchair tomorrow?  Carpe diem.  Mmmm… salmon quiche…

$11.5 million an hour- How much fucking beer would that buy?  Probably enough to get them all so drunk they’d forget the Crusades ever happened…

I remember reading somewhere how much it cost to kill one Viet Cong in the Vietnam war.  It was somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000 (1965 dollars!).  The question that immediately sprang to mind was, gee that’s a whole lot of black pajamas.  Why don’t we just buy them off?  I guess it wouldn’t be honorable, now would it?

Swordsbane, Les-  I also don’t know how likely it is that we’ll go the way of Nazi Germany, whatever that could mean in modern terms.  No one else knows, either.  The one certainty that history teaches us, is that it is unpredictable.

Zilch: you chose the piece with the biggest chunk of salmon in it ...

It was a Bacon, Cheese, Brocolli and Mushroom quiche and I chose the one closest to me.

Come on ... this is so generically stupid and such directed propoganda. do you really believe ALL “christian” camps are like this? All of us know that media can steer people ... ignorant people ... gullible people ... uneducated people ... bigotted people ... to believe anything. Why? Because the same people can only think (or are only willing to think) to a couple of levels.
There are religious groups that are considered “holy roller” types and play with snakes, drink poison and more, and they don’t represent the whole, much less a minority. Same for other sides that practice drinking blood or burning themselves, and we know they don’t represent the apposite to the religious. Based on this childish perception, should we assume that ALL opposites of religion are just as bad? No ... that is illogical and unreasonable.

This is a propogandist film, and even the writers acknowledge that they used specific clips to portray this extremist view. Their justification? That the people in the movie enjoyed the film. The   single level assumption by the producers? That if a couple of “religious” people like it, then all “christian” people will like it.

See Jane run. See Jane fall. Jane is a woman, so all women fall.
See Tim. See Tim act strange. Tim is a Christian. All Christians act like Tim.

Welcome to kindergarten.

This is just a smear film, nothing more.

John:...No ... that is illogical and unreasonable.

I agree—not all Christian camps are as chilling as Jesus Camp. I was forced at age thirteen to attend a week-long Christian camp with a friend, and while I hated every minute of it, the indoctrination and messages that I received were nowhere near as insidious as the ones outlined in the video for Jesus Camp.

This is just a smear film, nothing more.

That’s where I believe you’re wrong. I see nothing in this video to indicate that it’s anything other than an accurate portrayal of what transpires at this camp.

No, of course all Christian Camps aren’t quite like this. But be clear that fundamentalist Christian camps have an agenda at heart—the conversion of impressionable kids to an ideaology through whatever means necessary.

Despite the fact that the kids worshipping at the pic of GB is a little over the top, these camps are a huge exercise in the well-executed use of cult-like bainwashing strategies and I’ve seen a lot of the stuff they show in this clip firsthand—they basically break the kid down emotionally until they accept Jesus. (Which today seems to also mean accepting a particular political position).

The kids evangelicals target for camps are impressionable, sometimes poor and deprived in other areas of their life, and they get scooped into this stuff; and before they have developed the skills to think critically about what they’re being told, they’re taught to shut down any questioning.

Yeah, I know we’ve beat the Hitler thing to death, but he was smart enough to begin indoctrinating young people in the early 1920s—and look where it got him by 1940.

It all leaves me more than just a little uncomfortable.

i’m new here and am not sure if this has been posted already but i stumbled upon a different kind of camp for those who may not hold such strong views as those in the video above.  its called camp quest and you can check it out at http://www.camp-quest.org .

basically its a residential summer camp dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.  (as explained on their website)

something for the other side.

If this goes on I’m going to kill myself, because this world is going insane. That’s what you get when you give the right to speak and manifest you personal thoughts… oh wait, that’s what I’m for… well I guess I have some time to finish my studes, then kill myself, not because I’m depressed, I just don’t belong “here” (I probably will return to nothingness as I don’t believe in that bearded white man on clouds).

John writes…

Come on ... this is so generically stupid and such directed propoganda. do you really believe ALL “christian” camps are like this?

Near as I can tell no one here has claimed that all Christian camps are like that. That doesn’t change the fact that THIS Christian camp is like that and that’s worthy of being concerned. You’ll note we’re not discussing the other camps, but rather this one.

do you really believe ALL “christian” camps are like this?

Nope, but it wouldn’t surprise me to know there’s at least one. I think there IS a minority of Christians who are this extreme, and it ought to be a point of concern, not dismissal, for moderate Christians. I hope that by saying ‘not all Christians are like that’ you aren’t also meaning ‘there’s no problem here’.

Welcome Ailsa - married mom o’ 3 awesome kids.
May I offer an opinion?
Awesome kids usually have an awesome mother.
Thanks for the link to a realistic camp for kids.
There is hope.

Patness: I hope that by saying ‘not all Christians are like that’ you aren’t also meaning ‘there’s no problem here’.

Ditto.
Response, John?

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4340346

A review from the Denver post.

There is of course a lot of “SPIN” in this movie but I do believe that fundamentalist christians like this are a threat. I was however put through several christian summer camps in my time, and this is an extreme case.I would compare this camp to the creation and indoctrination of the Hitler Youth. That may seem extreme but its quite poinent, fear and hate are devastatingly useful tool when applied to children.

See Tim. See Tim act strange. Tim is a Christian. All Christians act like Tim.

I believe that the people who participate in this blog whole hearted disagree with lumping all Christians together.  There is a whole spectrum of Christianity.  A very significant number of Christians are very compassionate and rational people.  The problem is that the Christian Right is trying to destroy the compassionate and rational Christians.  The Christian Right has one agenda and that is turn the US into a Christian Theocracy. 

“You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists, and this and that and the other thing. Nonsense! I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.“—Pat Robertson

He negelected to mention several other rational Christian denominations, such as UCC, MCC, certain Lutheran synods, some Quaker groups, United Church of Canada, and others.

You’re going to run over them. Get around them, run over the top of them, destroy them - whatever you need to do so that God’s word is the word that is being practiced in Congress, town halls and state legislatures. That’s your job.—Christian Coalition field director, Bill Thomson