My optimistic side likes to believe that we’re not so stupid as a nation that we’d actually allow ourselves to fall prey to the same idiocy that brought about Nazi Germany, but my cynical side knows it’s not entirely beyond the realm of possibility.

I wonder how many ordinary Germans 60 years ago believed that their country was stupid enough that Krystalnacht could happen in their country.

Interesting Panel Discussion of This Topic from Bill Maher’s show.

RE: More on Jesus Camp and the parody
http://beepbeepitsme.blogspot.com/2006/09/jesus-camp.html

I stumbled on to this page and saw the video.  It does shock me.  I actually went to a slightly less fanatical church camp with my cousins.  I being forced and they really excited to be there.  They are Holy Rollers.  To be honest, we were up late and up early.  Crazier things happened there than I care to be a part of.  But the fact that they are starting so young proves that if you start them young, then you can keep them for a long time. 

The whole militaristic connotations of it all remind me of another era in world history.  The Crusades.  How did that work out for the better?  Well it killed off a bunch of people and then they came up with the idea of a children’s crusade.  What do you think happened there?  The point is that using children is not new.  The rules of the government don’t necessarily apply to regulating how they spend their time in these church camps as long as it isn’t abuse. 

The sad truth is, is that children are trainable and easily pointed in the direction you want them to go.  As long as the camp leaders make it fun, those kids will willingly learn how to strip and clean an assault rifle.  The US is no different than other countries with religious fanatics.

The US is no different than other countries with religious fanatics.

But you must admit that the US is still more rational, tolerant and liberal than, say, Iraq or Afganistan.

I’d rather Christianize all America than see my kids in turbans and planting car bombs next to the Jone’s

SA: But you must admit that the US is still more rational, tolerant and liberal than, say, Iraq or Afganistan.

For the time being, yes.

The USA is a Liberal country? Don’t tell Anne Coulter, she’ll want to bomb it.

Something Awful wrote:  “But you must admit that the US is still more rational, tolerant and liberal than, say, Iraq or Afganistan.  I’d rather Christianize all America than see my kids in turbans and planting car bombs next to the Jone’s”

I think the difference between the US and those other countries is the mix of the people.  Christianity is not necessarily the predominant religion like the way Islam is like in the Middle East.  The US was founded on freedom of religion.  The US is lucky so far to not be that extreme, but at the same time our own history has had religious fanatics on a lesser scale.  For me Waco and Heavens Gate come to mind. 
Also the fanatics in the US are not just religious.  There are militia groups spread all over the US and there is more school violence than before. 

Tolerance, rationality, and liberalism is subjective.

Your correct there.

Still, give me New York or California over Bagdad or Beirut any day.

At least I know I can walk the dog without being sniped at.

This is just a smear film, nothing more.

I have to disagree with that. They are not implying that all christian camps are like this, they are not saying that all christians are like this, they are documenting some of the particularily intense religious displays that occur at this particular camp and, I have to say, I am terrified.
The direction that America is heading in lately leaves me desperately wishing there were at least one country between us and them, unfortunately the lines are only blurring more and more.
Having grown up in a very religious family and spent much of my youth around a rather conservative preacher, I can definitely say that there is nothing quite as potentially damaging to a child as religious guilt-tripping, exactly like the kind of manipulation we see in this film. Preying on the emotions of children barely old enough to understand a good majority of the words being thrown at them to ensure another generation of unthinking followers is a dangerous move by a desperate group. I’m sure they think hell is about to swallow us up and it is only through carefully “moulding” the new generation that they can save us all.  I for one would rather save myself.

In all honesty, it is only in recent history, after government grew out of patriarcial religion, that our society has placed such restrictions on what an individual can decide about their own lives. Its the age old argument between freedom to and freedom from - democracy used to mean we all had the freedom to control our lives and our country, now it is simply a symbol of our freedom from choice. In “the Handmaid’s Tale”, Atwood talks about a great war and then a slow shift in power from the government to an extreme religious movement. On 9/11 when we were reading this book in class, my stomach dropped into my shoes at how eerily similar America seemed at the moment; apparently this was a premonition indeed.
Although it took much longer than I expected, I anticipate an eventual war between the right-wing evangelists and the scientologists who pull the rest of the governmental puppet’s strings. Doesn’t really matter who wins, we all might be doomed already.

I am a devout Atheist. i have been called intolerant at times. but to be honest i am not. it is this sort of thing that i am intolerant of. This is absolutly unacceptable. man if these guys are exampted from taxes i will do a fucking backflip. this is against the united states. we came here for religous freedom and this is like a bootcamp that makes kids intolerable of other religions. I will do everyhting in my power to fuck with these people. If you are an honest and moral person, regardless of your religion, you can’t tell me that this is ok. this is what made the middle east what it is today. With my beleifs as they are i can’t believe that people actually believe in this bullshit. man i could go on for hours here about this shit. wow just plain fucking wow.

Honestly, this video kind of scared me.

Good God!  Where is the Kool Aid when you need it?  That Bitch knows she’s brainwashing them too.  What a ______!!! (rhymes with punt)

This is why I believe in God and hate religion and churches!!

That Bitch knows she’s brainwashing them too.

I’m trying to figure out what that missing word is but I’m still working on a clue in today’s paper’s crossword.
What’s a 4 letter word for a woman ending in UNT? 

Aunt?

Too easy. 

Helen Hunt is brainwashing kids?  That sucks.  Man I always thought she was hot.

I’m trying to figure out what that missing word is but I’m still working on a clue in today’s paper’s crossword.
What’s a 4 letter word for a woman ending in UNT?

I always sucked at crosswords too.  Hmm let’s see here… bunt!

What’s a 4 letter word for a woman ending in UNT?

RUNT!! - she is kinda stout, isn’t she? Hairy and dwarflike....

Ah, no doubt about it, you’re a funny pack of Sea Hunts. 

Yeah, the Evangelical movement is dangerous, but don’t you guys get it? I’ve edited movies and I can see that this trailer was designed to provoke an angry response. The public is being made to hate, manipulated so that the film will bring in more money. You’ve been had, and you guys don’t even talk about being manipulated by the trailer. “This means war!” is the line that’s supposed to sell the idea to you. There is no explanation that they are talking about spiritual-metaphorical warfare as described in the Bible. Now, these Evangelicals do indeed believe in physical warfare, but they have to kill their fellow man with the permission of their government, that’s where the contradiction comes into play. Join the army in order to kill the enemy. They hide behind ideas like love and God and holy religion, but, if given the order from an American General they’ll shoot you dead in a second! To disobey government authority is a sin in their eyes, and they’ve got the Bible Verses to back it up. For now, they’ll hide behind the children and raise up the pawns that will go out and kill themselves for the cause; these kids are The Big Red One, so to speak, ready to die for the adults’ agendas. Becky Fischer has decided to leave Devil’s Lake and relocate her camp elsewhere. She says she’s “trying to protect the children.” No, sir! She’s protecting her own ass from being sued if some child dies due to an attack from the enemy. You’ll see how quickly the parents pull their kids out from under her influence when the attackers come with their threats, the parents won’t want to go to jail for child abuse and the kids will be downright confused, having been given mixed messages. “Mom, but you said I could die for Jesus!” a child will say. “You’ll die for the Lord when you come of age, young lady, not while you’re under my roof! Jesus will understand!”

You’ll see. You’ll see.

Haggard abandoned ... “WOE TO THE MAN WHO TRUSTS IN MAN.”

AP Top News
Dobson Quits Haggard Counseling Team
By Associated Press

November 7, 2006, 9:19 PM EST

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo.—Citing a lack of time, Focus on the Family founder James Dobson withdrew Tuesday from the team overseeing counseling for the Rev. Ted Haggard, the evangelical pastor who was fired amid allegations of gay sex and drug use.

“Emotionally and spiritually, I wanted to be of help—but the reality is I don’t have the time to devote to such a critical responsibility,” Dobson said.

The other two members of the team, Pastors Jack Hayford of The Church on the Way in Van Nuys, Calif., and Tommy Barnett of First Assembly of God in Phoenix, declined to comment.

Haggard was forced out as senior pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church on Saturday after a former male escort alleged they had sex repeatedly and that Haggard used methamphetamines.

In a statement read at the church Sunday, Haggard confessed to unspecified “sexual immorality,” accepted responsibility for his actions and asked forgiveness.

The counseling process, called restoration, could take years, said H.B. London, vice president for church and clergy at Focus on the Family.

_______

NOTE: Yeah, I want to join a Christian Sect that will abandon me when I need them most. Sign me up, I can’t wait.

very much like a cult, how awful for those poor helpless children who have no choice to be there. and they act like they are christians, all i see is a cult.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/08/
AR2006110801703.html

After tumbling from the pinnacle of the American evangelical movement amid allegations he snorted meth and cavorted with a male prostitute, Haggard has agreed to a rehabilitation process that could last three to five years.

“I see success approximately 50 percent of the time,” said H.B. London, vice president for church and clergy at Focus on the Family, the conservative Christian ministry in Colorado Springs. “Guys just wear out and they can no longer subject themselves to the process.”

Those who fail “end up selling cars or shoes or something, and being miserable and angry the rest of their lives,” London said.

....

London, who is not involved in Haggard’s restoration, said the process will demand honesty from Haggard and determination from his overseers.

“It cannot be just a matter of friendship. It will have to become almost a confrontational relationship,” he said. “You’ve got to confess your sins and you’ve got to have a group of people around you who will not let you whitewash the issue.”

The process includes counseling, in groups and alone, and prayer. Each restoration is unique, with a program tailored for the needs of the participant.

“From the Christian perspective, we think in terms of prayer, we think in terms of what we call godly counsel, where godly men who are clean themselves insert themselves in the life of the one who is struggling,” London said.

The symbolic laying on of hands may also be a part of the recovery, London said.

“I’m sure there will be those who lay their hands on Pastor Haggard as an act of faith, calling on the act of God to restore and heal,” he said. “The prayer can be therapeutic, the laying on of hands can be ceremonial.”

One of the men who agreed to oversee the restoration, Focus on the Family founder James Dobson, has already withdrawn, citing a lack of time. The other two _ Pastors Jack Hayford of The Church on the Way in Van Nuys, Calif., and Tommy Barnett of First Assembly of God in Phoenix _ declined to comment on the specifics of Haggard’s program.

It isn’t clear whether Haggard will try to return to the ministry, at New Life or elsewhere. “He says that he has committed his life to God and that he is looking for direction as to where God can best use him,” said Leonard Chessler, Haggard’s lawyer and friend.

_______

These are the people who are raising up a Christian army that will take America back for Christ. These are the people who believe you can rip the homosexual out of the gay man’s heart. These are the people who expect all politicians (who are liars to begin with) to be straight and holy. These people have unrealistic expectations about everything in life, they are not living in the real world.

And what’s wrong with selling shoes? It’s an honorable thing. The Apostle Paul made tents for a living.

Well, I guess you’ve got to hand to those three-piece suit wearing, linoleum worshipping lunkheads, they’ve certainly got a hold on un-reality that beats some insane man in a padded room who enjoys throwing his shit at the walls.

Sorry for being so crude. I am a Christian after all. But that’s the image that comes to mind when I think of the Evangelicals.

Splat!

Hi Nate:

Look, I’m an atheist, and what these religious psychos think is they “brain wash” a person into being something they are not.

That is done by coercion, gang banging under hot lights, lies, unwarranted humiliation, unfounded guilt, created remorse, and such a long list. ALL have shown to fail. The same as an over grown AA meeting that can’t even get 5% success by their own figures.

The best thing Haggard could do for himself and family is to become an atheist; screw all them gods, and the angels they road in on. As they are only man created myths anyways.

So what he likes to be touched by a man, big stinking deal. His wife is probably boring as hell in bed, cold as ice, and no doubt a wimp mouse. He likes drugs as a quick fix, who doesn’t, he should stay to booze, or something else that is legal.  Make his own way in life, and care for those that he loves, IF they want him, if not screw them also and find others to love.  It is a big world and love is needed everywhere. Life is easy. To be a Christian you have to loose all sense of being a human, even your own existence you have to deny. It looks like Haggard was fed up with saying he does not exist.

The problem is haggard set a standard in lie he could not live up to, no one can, nor can any other church leaders, and that stand was a big fat lie, not grounded in reality, he knows it and now he is busted. So what.

Haggard should tell all those church leaders to fuck off, he joining the atheist camp, becoming a human in reality, and now he is going to sell real estate instead of god, and start being the man that he is for the first time in his life.

That religious crap makes an emotional retard out of a person, and I would not doubt that Haggard wanted out, as his own lies were making him sick.

Don