Lordklegg - I agree that she should’ve known better, and usually I’d stand back and let them learn from their mistakes first hand, but the consequences seem a little too permanent to stand back. Also her punishment, by nature, comes after the point where she can make good use personally of what she’s learnt, so I think this has gone beyond the point where her stupidity should affect our decision

Being stupid doesn’t make anybody good/bad in itself, so I wouldn’t use it as a measure of what sympathy someone deserves, particularly when they didn’t intend to do harm

Yes, naming an object Muhammad in a pro-dominantly Muslim country isn’t the smartest thing to do. But any normal government would politely tell her that this is not encouraged and could she please change it, kthnxbye? The fact that this woman could be shot to death by firing squad over an innocent mistake, and that people are willing to descend onto the streets to campaign for it, is the scandal here.

I’m not going to make any wide-sweeping comments about Muslims because I live in a city where, in 2001, 16% of the population identified themselves as Muslim (the third largest group after Christians and atheists), and the vast majority are perfectly reasonable people who probably wouldn’t think twice about condemning what has happened. But as usual, it is the extremist minority giving Islam a bad name.

LordKlegg- some here have said ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law- I have never really bought into that. I’m not suggesting law-breakers are routinly let off, but rather that most countries laws are so complicated there are many occasions where even natives can break them unwittingly, so each case needs to be considered on its merits- this is part of the reason why western countries employ independent prosecutors.

The teddy was introduced as a object of affection, and named by the children for someone who they have been taught to love.  There was a Sudanese Muslim Teaching assistant in the class, who obviously saw nothing wrong with the suggestion.  A British muslim expressed surprise, saying that pets are named after the prophet.  This woman thought they were naming it after one of the children.  The charges make little sense- ‘Inciting hatred against Islam’ (remember this is an object of love).  Railtrack might as well sue Michael Bond for defamation “He suggests staff keep marmalade sandwiches in their hats”

Zilch- don’t have that punchbag in the US- inciting harm to the President is a federal offense, there is no ‘freedom of speech’ defence. You will be arrested by the Secret Service, unless you’re a Republican senator, who called for the assassination of Clinton.

British Muslims have held a protest outside the Sudanese Embassy in London.  They were also wielding things- Teddy Bears!

Rock. On. 

Makes me wish I were still over in Blighty.  I’d buy ‘em all a round of tea...assuming that they hadn’t...er..."gone native” enough to develop a taste for beer.

um- don’t think Muslims will be drinking alcohol anytime soon.  However they have already enough British in them to take the teddies.  This is what happens if you absorb a culture that includes Mark Thomas (youTube him)

This must be true, I read it on the internet.

Hussar- don’t worry, that punching bag is safe here in Vienna.  At least until Europe becomes a colony of the U.S.

About alcohol and Muslims- the Turks drink fair amounts of raki, but of course Turkey is probably the most secular of Muslim nations.  And I don’t have statistics, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Turks here in Austria consume less alcohol than they do in Istanbul.

It’s a well known phenomenon that refugees are often more conservative in many ways than their compatriots at home.  If Muslims don’t “go native” here, and become fully integrated, which most don’t, they tend to go the other way and hang on to their customs.  After seeing how Turks live in Vienna, I was amazed how secular and Western Istanbul was, although the ubiquitous miltary with machine guns was a trifle unfamiliar.

And I don’t have statistics, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Turks here in Austria consume less alcohol than they do in Istanbul.

Just like I didn’t drink nearly as enthusiastically after I turned 21 as I did before. maybe?  Well, until my husband and I discovered the joys of homebrewing/homevintning anyway:  Then (like just about every other hobby) it sort of took on a life of its own.  But that’s another story…

Mmm, homebrew… You and your husband don’t happen to live near Vienna, do you?

Why homebrew when I can walk to 2 good real ale pubs. Oh yeah money…

Ginger Beer brewing- now THAT takes on a life of it’s own.

You Limeys do have some good brews, I’ll admit.  I’m especially partial to Black Sheep Ale, which you can’t get in Vienna, unfortunately.

I’ve never had ginger beer- just American ginger ale, which of course is a soft drink.

I’ve been on the Black Sheep Brewery tour . You can order cases of 12 bottles from their web site, if you’re so inclined.

Zilch, LH:  Actually, I’ve developed a taste for hard cider and cysers.  I can’t even drink the fizzy syrup that Woodchuck puts out anymore.  You’d have to talk to my Dearest if you want to talk shop about beer. 

Btw, zilch:  How come you’re in the US (according to your flag) instead of Austria now?  I mean, there’s Coca-Cola Colonialism an’ all, but…

Wychwood brewery do some nice stuff- Hobgoblin is their famous strong ale, but I like Fiddlers Elbow. Fullers- London Pride and ESB, as well as 1845, and if you can get them McEwans 80 and 90 Shilling (properly written 80/- and 90/-, from the duty on a barrel) but hard to get south of the border.  I’ve got Tring and Chiltern Breweries just up the road, and Rebbelion in Marlow only 25 miles away.  Kings Head in Aylesbury Market square is a National trust property which serves the Chiltern Beers.  I sit there in a room that was well established when it entertained Oliver Cromwell during the Civil War.  For you Columbines that means I relax and read my copy of Private Eye in a room that existed while your ancestors thought going West would fall off the Edge, and there was no quick rout to China and the Indies.

(double dipping now he’s reread Zilch.)

Ginger Ale is a mixer. Ginger Beer (as in ‘Lashings of Ginger Beer’) is a far fierier drink, due to the ginger. I made it as a kid (it may have some slight alchol in, but if it does its negligible).  Lovely on a hot day with ice.

The reason for me saying it takes on a life of its own is that over the brewing process the yeast base used to brew it- the ‘plant’- doubles in size, so you have to halve it every brew (10- 12 days) This means either starting a second process (if you time it right, batch two matures just as you drink the last of batch one, and vice versa) or get rid of it.  The traditional way of doing this is to give it to a friend so he can start brewing.  The problem of course is he then has to halve it, as do you for a second time.  Within no time every one you know is brewing Ginger Beer.  You can of course throw it, but my parents grew up under rationing, so that was very much the second option.  Occasionally you will be woken up in the night by the cap losing the struggle with the fizz.

If you want SERIOUS ginger beer you need to find somewhere that sells Carribean food and drink. The Windies seem to regard it in the same way a Texan regards chilli- if it doesn’t melt titanium it’s not been done right.

Instead of using lemonade (clear carbonated sweetened water flavoured with lemons- not what Charlie Brown appears to make) to make a shandy, I prefer Ginger Beer. People look at you funny, but it was the original mixer, before fizzy lemonade was invented (Does the US have shandy- a 50/50 mix of beer and lemonade?)

Neil- tempting, but alas the shipping cost is half again the price of the ale.  I’ll just have to wait till I’m in Yorkshire again (this spring, if I’m lucky).

cubiclegrrl- what’s a “cyser”?  And you’re right- I do seem to be back in the States for the moment.  That’s handy- I’ll take advantage of the worthless dollar and stock up on salsa and chips.  No, I’m afraid it’s just my new isp playing around with connections somehow.

Hussar- are you just trying to make me feel jealous?  King’s Head looks great- lots more atmosphere than the usual “Beisl” here.  Luckily, the beer situation in Austria is not bad, even if we don’t have much English ale: there are some quite good local brews in Vienna.

I love ginger, and I’m sure I’d like ginger beer too.  Maybe I can find some here.

The problem with Holy Books and The Word of God is that men write the words, create the books.  Men are fallible.  Men make mistakes and are limited by their own points of view (create from their life experiences rooted in human cultures of specific time periods).  Hence, there is contradiction from section to section (chapter to chapter, book to book) within these holy documents due to dynamic nature of societies and their influence on the multiple authors over time. 

I know, I know… there is the “GOD ACTED THROUGH THEM” argument.  These limited humans were supposedly capable of creating documentation without flaw, because GOD was using them as tool, like a pen.  Yet, doesn’t the quality of your pen (ink runs out, tip breaks) affect the quality of the document?  Humans are limited and flawed beings… Doesn’t it stand to reason, even used as a tool, the product in which they are used to produce would have to be limited and flawed accordingly?

LH:  Very interesting about ginger beer--I’ll mention that to my partner-in-crime.  I can just see this spiraling completely out of hand, but I like ginger, too. 

zilch:  Cyser is just hard cider made with honey instead of white sugar.  We keep two hives of bees, but every mead we’ve made has taken sooooo long to ferment (thereby tying up carboys) that we make the (relatively) quick-hitters like cysers or honey-based fruit wines, just so we’re not swimming in the embarrassment of riches that our ladies supply.

mmm, mead- is there any good thing that you and your partner in crime do not make, cubiclegrrl?

MMMmmmmmmm Mead.  When I was a Dark Age re-enactor mead was required drinking. We drank it like beer, though it’s 12-14% by volume (similar to wine) My thegn’s habit was to take the stopper out and throw it over his shoulder, into the candle shadows where it couldn’t be found with “we won’t need that again”.  He said he never saw anyone agressive on mead, just happy drunk- he opined the sugar base had something to do with that.

Zilch- If ever you get as far south as the Home Counties we will have to try and meet for a beer. Aylesbury has well over a 1000 years of history, though much of it has been ruined by ‘modernisation’ in the 60s and 70s ("More poured concrete- yes, I’m sure that’s the answer"). (Just thought- “What have you been doing”, “I’ve just invited an American living in Austria for a beer down the Kings Head").

The Farmers Bar has been re-decorated in a lighter, more modern style, though it manages to stay cozy. Not only do I get the odd luchtime drink in down there, when work has been particually annoying, but my stag do ended there, where we were joined by the ladies hockey team in the courtyard.  A couple of years ago my wargame club were invited to put on a demo game as part of a beer festival/history weekend celebrating the history of the place.  We refought the Battle of Tewkesbury with 15mm figures in one of the stables, while staying suitably refreshed.

Have you noticed MrsSEB coming in and going completely off topic by insisting on addressing the thread heading! How very dare she!

mmm, mead- is there any good thing that you and your partner in crime do not make, cubiclegrrl?

We haven’t tried our hand at anything bubbly--well, at least not intentionally.  (A chamomile half-mead blew out corks *quite* emphatically--about four of ‘em at pretty much the same time.  It was like the wine rack fired broadside at the basement wall.  More than a little disturbing, that...)

But we’ve pulled a few clinkers, too.  There’s a blackberry wine that I’ll use to stew tomatoes, but I d--n sho’ won’t drink.  At least the pumpkin pie wine turned out alright--weird, but alright--because it made about two dozen bottles.

I am soooo jealous of you and LH in particular, though, being able to knock back a pint in that kind of ambiance.  The best bit of our vacation in the UK (for me) was a quiet cider next to a crackling fire in an early 15th century house in York.  That was one of the most magic moments of my life, when nearly six centuries rolled away in the lull of conversation.  [Purr....]

Hussar- thanks for the invitation.  I would love to chew the fat with you over a pint.  I don’t know when I’ll be in the Home Counties again, but I’ll let you know when I am.  The same goes for you, of course, if you ever happen to come out this way.  And you’re right about Mrs. SEB- I don’t know how Les can put up with such an uppity woman

About reenactment:  the best I ever saw (no, I watched from a safe distance) was in Leeds, a recreation of one of the skirmishes between the French and English around the time of Agincourt.  I had previously talked with a couple of the participants, who were reminiscing about wounds they’d received in such battles.  I had thought they were exaggerating until the fight started.  Not only were they really clashing swords, but they were really shooting arrows, with points, at one another.  One fellow had to be taken away with the ambulance, which was standing nearby.  Very entertaining, but I’ll stick with music.

cubiclegrrl- pumpkin wine? Now I’ve heard everything.  Yes, York is beautiful.  But you needn’t be jealous of us in the Old Countries- while there’s lots of ambience, we have our share of problems too.  Of course, if you and your hubby should be in Vienna, drop me a line.

That’s of course an open invite to contact me.

I went to the doctor with a scar.
How did you get that?
I got hit by a sword.
How did you get hit by a sword?
I was trying to get out the way of a spear.

Though the society has strict safety rules, old hands who know each other well often do things outside the rules. Unfortunately on this occasion they didn’t see me. Even though the weapons are blunt, a sword is still a 3 ft iron bar.

Are you sure they fire sharps (or any thing) at each other? Archery in such volleys are always (alledgedly) at a piece of rough ground that should be empty. Of course occasionally someone misses the safety script briefing… Some ACW societies do not use ramrod, instead banging the butt against the ground.  There is historical evidence for this, but mostly its because there is then no chance of leaving a rod in a barrel by accident.

Yes, they did fire arrows at each other- I saw some hit shields.  They weren’t moving very fast, because they fired from a good distance away, and I suspect they weren’t sharp, but it was still a bit intimidating.

Yes, they did fire arrows at each other- I saw some hit shields.  They weren’t moving very fast, because they fired from a good distance away,

Maybe they were using blunt tips like the ones used on flu-flus.

One reason why my society wouldn’t do mass displays with others- too many nutters out there.