I’m sure he’ll have some moronic spin to make him look right.  Dumbass.  (Him, not you)

I caught a bit of Pat last night after power came back on (I was one of the VERY few lucky ones and only lost power for 7 hours yesterday.) It seems Pat is going to be giving away money (which is a cool thing honestly) to help people out.

But his motives worry me...might it be that he is trying to bribe his followers so that they won’t start thinking he a fraude???

At last read, Virginia had (at 10) more deaths from the hurricane than any other state and has been declared a national disaster area. I personally believe Pat only uses these mass prayer events to draw more free publicity to his ministry. Way to go Les! Keep advertising for the man. Maybe he’ll make you an honorary deacon. LOL

Maybe if y’all had prayed too everything would’ve turned out OK

IB Bill, it seems to me that Robertson has more than enough deluded followers to have effected positive results. Since we are speaking of the unpredictability of weather patterns, and no one can know the Mind of this Christian God they were praying to (though far too many do claim to know His Mind),perhaps he wanted Pat’s followers to experience defeat. “Maybe” is a big word to throw around but I’ll use it anyway: Maybe there is no God to pray to. If asked to decide whether inhabitants should remain in the path of the hurricane and pray to God for protection, or play it smart and evacuate, I would have to say “You guys better run. Your God has proven time and again that you shouldn’t depend on him for safety.” After all,the Virginia Beach area was the area hardest hit.

Brock: Didja see the smiley face? 

But since you’re serious: Who is to say God hasn’t already answered prayers for protection over the years by allowing for an orderly evacuation? That by freeing people from vain superstitutions over the years, God has allowed politicians to raise money to pay engineers to build bridges and roads and vehicles and strong shelters, and so on ...

What does a smiley face have to do with the body of the message? What did you really say? That maybe too few people prayed for everything to turn out ok? Or that we who read SEB didn’t pray, but if we would’ve, everything might have turned out ok? Or were you really being sarcastic about the idea of prayer in the first place? Your single cryptic sentence raised more questions than one smiley face icon fits all positive intentions could serve. Some people on here use smiley faces to say “don’t give me any grief or contrary opinion to what I said, I have included a smiley face to disarm you.” That’s probably why I hate these damn abbreviations for communication. One is forced to feel guilty for not conceding to their short-cut assorted mandates (though some designs are cute as heck).  The only time I use them is by accident when I forget that a certain punctuation placement will summon them. That is why I call them “little gods”; they are there affecting the outcome of events whether I choose to believe in them or not.

“That by freeing people from vain superstitions over the years God has allowed politicians to raise money to pay engineers to build bridges and roads and vehicles and strong shelters, and so on...” God apparently has allowed politicians to raise money (taxes)for things I don’t approve of. Things that don’t facilitate “roadways” and “bridges” (speaking metaphorically, without the use of icons) but instead foster hate and disenfranchisement, so I guess I prefer God to stay out of the community safety and improvement business. After all, God, or God’s tax collectors, have built Robertsons empire, and I see no good whatsoever in that, unless you want to view substantially enriching one man’s bank account and ego as good. The man has done more to foster hate and bigotry than most could. If I were a praying man I would have prayed for Isabel to carry him and his possessions off into the sea.

I don’t feel that God has freed people from vain superstitions over the years; quite the contrary. Too bad there isn’t an icon to adequately represent my emotion in regard to God and the “good” he has done. I might be tempted to use it.
BTW. Have you noticed how much per hour a public works employee earns as opposed to the average profit levels the construction firm enjoys. I think God needs to attend some fiscal responsibility classes.
(Brought to you by the “I say it so you don’t have to” public service committee)(insert smiley face here for the intent impaired)

Brock

That maybe too few people prayed for everything to turn out ok?

Coincidentally, I was channel surfing today and stopped on CBN, Pat Robertson�s channel, where Pat said exactly that!  He said that if there had been more prayers prior to Isabel, there would not have been as much damage or loss of life!  A couple of minutes later, Pat was talking about his prostate cancer.  He talked about the importance of getting your prostate checked, because early detection is the key to effective treatment.  I would have thought more prayer would have improved ones survival chances, but I guess when Pat�s ass is on the line a good oncologist trumps prayer.

How can anyone who claims to love God really believe that he �lovingly� kills people because they don�t pray hard enough?  I guess God only heard 123,321 prayers instead of the required 124, 221 prayers required for divine intervention.  The sorry thing is millions of people look up to this whacko!

Damn it Mild Bill, the only thing I can disagree with you on concerning your post above is “I was channel surfing today and stopped on CBN, Pat Robertson�s channel”. If you can’t use your remote more responsibly than that, you might as well put its batteries back in the penis pump.

It sounds for the world like you agreed with me on something. What are you trying to do - encourage me to experience cognitive dissonance or something? Do you want my head to explode? I know...this is an elaborate set-up. Well, it won’t work. I’m on to you. Clever of you to change you name to “IB Bill” on certain posts. That way you can lose an argument and still maintain a sense of inviolateness while I’m none the wiser. And I thought double-dipping was the vilest thing you would stoop to.
Plus, I just knew when I saw the “recent comment” on the main page with your name heading it quoting me on this post, that I was going to have to fight the two “Bills” at once. I sucked in my breath, clicked on the link and went forward to fight the good fight. I can see now that the rules have changed and nothing will ever be as I thought I understood it to be. I wish there was a smiley face god icon to represent that. You know, like angel and devil icons fornicating or something. Not that I would use it, but at least it would be there if I ever decided to lower my communication standards.

Ah the old ‘finding common ground with Mild Bill syndrome’ Brock I wouldn’t worry, it’s actually not such a rare occurrence, I have myself ‘agreed’ with Mild Bill on certain issues in the past. It would seem the enigma that is Mild Bill is perhaps not as disagreeable as a casual observer may believe.

As for smilies, I think when used correctly they can help add a little expression to otherwise emotionless text, but I do agree they can be overused or abused.

Sorry for going totally off topic, I just didn’t have anything to add to the praying solves real life issues rubbish, apart from of course it bloody doesn’t take a reality check people =P

Ah, the old �Brock acting incredulously about my siding with him then accusing me of being IB Bill and Serai calling me an enigma� routine!  I ain�t falling for that one again.  Yo Brock, it wasn�t my fault I stopped on CBN�it was God-driven!  I believe the Lord wanted me to witness a USDA grade A, certified ass.

Clever of you to change you name to �IB Bill� on certain posts.

First, I�m gonna have to lower your grade for using a pronoun improperly (you instead of your).  I knew you were counting on an A, but I just can�t overlook mistakes like that young man Second, I would have been much more clever than that old chappie�I would have named myself the anti-Brock or something equally annoying to you.

To borrow from one of your heroes (WJC):

Let me make this clear�I want you to hear me�I am not IB Bill and I have not had relations with that person, IB Bill.

Consider our unholy alliance to be forged out of necessity and don�t let your little heart be troubled.  I�m sure we�ll be trashing in each other again in no time!

Ok Mild Bill, explain how I have a pair of pink and red evening fatigues with an “IB ‘Mild’ Bill” name-tag sewn into the lining, with a highly suspicious stain on the pants. (Early discharge? I’m just asking!)

Serai, you spelt enigma incorrectly. It should have been spelt with an e instead of an i and no g. Beside that, you let Mild Bill off too easily, regardless of the vast cultural and language differences between Great Britain and the US. (This is a bathroom. You know it as a “loo.” It is where one goes to pee. Please do not relieve yourself in the kitchen sink. This is a cracker, not a biscuit. A “cracker” is also someone who lives in Florida. I don’t think you have anything like a Floridian in your country to campare to.) Mild Bill is an ex-serviceman. Active servicemen drink a lot and like to start bar fights. They’ll tell you anything to have their ways with you. (Always suspect a smiley face god icon attending something they post. It might have been placed there to put you off guard.) They generally seem to know a lot about select issues, such as world conflicts, past and present. They really do however, know a great deal about how to survive in the wilds, (places like Florida or Texas. I don’t think you have any places like Florida or Texas in Great Britain.)
Most importantly, never discuss politics with a serviceman, especially with E-5’s and above. You’ll only end up with a skewed ideology and an unwanted child or two.

Brock

Actually that name should be modified by dropping all the letters after B and adding ipolar Disorder!  Do the docs in the mental institution you�ve been committed to know you�ve been posting to the internet again?  Maybe they let you do it as part of your therapy; that way all of your numerous personalities can be exercised (or is that exorcised?)

What point are you trying to make about the loo and biscuit stuff?  Is that you or is it personality number 6, Otto, the Swiss ballet dancer?  I applaud you for your observations about GIs drinking and getting into bar fights; I�ve seen those movies too!  Actually I was never in a bar fight, but almost was once.

Dream sequence beginning now��.fade to 1980, a pub in the English Midlands�

I was minding my own business, talking to some student nurses in a public house, when some local gentlemen took exception to it.  We left the pub and took our discussion outside, with some assistance from a bouncer.  After a bit of discussion I realized these gentlemen were from a group called the National Front!  At the end of our summit meeting outside the pub, we agreed to disagree and as I turned, a pint glass went whizzing by my head.  I turned back, voiced my displeasure, and asked the person who threw the glass to step forward so we could resolve our differences.  My offer was declined and as I turned to go, twenty or thirty of the gentlemen started shouting �Sig Heil, Sig Heil!�

I understand that you may have never heard of the National Front, because they have not been featured in any movies (where you apparently get most of your information).  I�ll bet Serai has heard of them�though they may have a different name now.  So much for your �no crackers like in Florida� hypothesis.  Serai, I am relying on you to explain what the National Front is/was because I obviously have some sort of agenda and can�t be trusted to relay unbiased information.

Looking forward to your further insults with great anticipation though you are starting to mutate into a...well take your name and drop the �B� and the �ck� then add a T at the beginning and �double l� at the end!  Hey was that you in The Lord of the Rings???

NF hmm yes what can I say? IQ’s of room temperature, short hair VERY short hair Edward Norton in American History X types actually.

Oh and they call themselves the BNP now, the British National Party and they wear suits and stuff, and people can vote for them too!!!

Gee, Mild Bill, you take things to the extreme quite a bit don’t you? Don’t worry, I’m aware of what the National Front stands for and realize, in all seriousness, that bigotry knows no borders. France has Le Front National, and it is a growing political party too, unfortunately. I only hope Serai recognizes better the innocent humor intended in my post, than you did.
The “loo” and “biscuit” references were used jokingly to poke fun at your belief that “Serai is from England and our idioms often do not translate to English English. If you prefer, I�ll dumb myself down in the future.” (Mild Bill quote from “Bush and Rumsfeld both state...” entry by Les on 9/18)
I think Serai communicates as effectively to Americans as you do, possibly more so at times. Actually, I think you dumb yourself down more often than you think and despite your intent to do otherwise. Take care not to “dumb down” too frequently, as you may stay that way.

Oh, and the remark about being bipolar (chuckle): Bipolar Disorder is not the same as DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) but I understood the intent of your put-down nevertheless. Possibly it confused you that both have �disorder� in their names. Hey, I’ll admit I go both ways, as I figure it increases my chances of getting a date on a Saturday night. If I can’t entice with over-optimism I can usually elicit pity and resignation.

Also, a “-b+t ro -ck+ll” is defined in Dictionary.com as “An individual who...regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the* have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.”
While I plead guilty of attempting to annoy you at times, I think I stay on topic (present post excepted) at least as well as you do, if not more often. The fact that people know so little about my history, race and prior employment should serve as an example. While you may believe that your intellect is enviable, as suggested by your exclamation
“Once a guy asked me, �Do you think you�re cool or something?�. I told him there were a couple of possibilities�either I thought I was cool or I really was cool! He thought that was a cool answer! You can apply that to your opining over my intellectual capacity” (also from “Bush and Rumsfeld both state...” )
I sometimes think you interrupt a discussion simply to elevate yourself, making you a vanity troll, perhaps.

We all want to come across as cogent. In the end, it all depends on how welcome our opinions are. I have fun calling you out but ultimately hope others derive some measure of worth from our bantering. I have yet to find a site more expansive and relevant than this one.  I filter and express my views through humor, anger, sarcasm, guilt inducement and more. If that makes me appear to be bipolar, so be it. I can assure you that most of my �personalities� only hope to add to the value of discussions here.

*Should be �they� . Even dictionaries can accidentally leave out a letter. I feel better about my mistake in my earlier post and demand you reinstate my “A”

Clever of you to change you name to �IB Bill� on certain posts. That way you can lose an argument and still maintain a sense of inviolateness while I�m none the wiser.

Lose an argument?  Brock, dude, no offense, but you bored me off this thread.

*Gently nudges things back on topic*
You know the thing I have always found ironic about this pray for salvation *baloney, is this notion that Gods sits there and picks out who dies and who doesn’t in a disaster, like kid with a giant pack of M&M’s who only likes the red ones. (Yes we have M&M’s in the UK now, we used to call them peanut Revels)

When I was one of those religious **whackos or flakes I met a ***dude in the course of my ministry who brought up a good point. He asked me if I thought that God looked after his people when they prayed to him, I replied yes I thought he did, he then said so God would ignore a child who was being molested, and nip on over to help some christian find their car keys instead?

He was responding to an article in one of the magazines I was showing him, where someone was saying how God helps the righteous even in small things if you pray. This made me think seriously about my faith, and taken in context with the scriptures that say God is impartial and we are all precious to him it opened my eyes to how *****bogus these claims are.

*baloney substituted for rubbish in deference to American readers.

**whackos or flakes substituted for nutcases or flippin’ mental types

***dude substituted for bloke or geezer

*****bogus substituted for daft

Footnotes brought to you by Serai’s oh so English sense of humour, no liability for error in transatlantic translation is accepted, statutory rights remain unaffected. =P

Serai, we’ll make a Valley Girl out of you yet, and IB BILL, though I guess you won’t read this, you mistakenly thought I said YOU lost the argument. I was joking with Mild Bill and pretending that since your names were so similar, he was really both of you. Get it? I have since come to realize that you likely are two separate people (or at least one and a half.) Don’t go away bored! You still have some valid questions to answer, if you’re game. If you are game (not that there’s anything wrong with that),keep in mind that nobody really loses on here...or wins for that matter.
Serai, I think I have a sort of English sense of humor, don’t you?

Serai, I think I have a sort of English sense of humor, don�t you?

Hehe of course I do, my last post wasn’t in bad humour at all, in fact I find the whole potatoe potato thing quite hilarious really. If I was mad at you or anyone else for poking fun at the English it’d only be due to the fact that we can poke fun at ourselves so much better. =P

**nudges back off topic ** Serai, I preferred the Anglicisms. Daft and rubbish are great words.

Now, to your point, your argument rests on the idea that God can’t do two things at once, that God is somehow limited to helping either the guy with the car keys or the molested child.  He’s not.  Bad things happen because people have free will and use that free will to do bad things. Some guy rapes his daughter and this is God’s fault?  Did He say do that?  Do you want God to zap the molester with a lightning bolt?  Do you want Him to zap everyone who does something wrong?

Brock: Are we on the “why do good things happen to bad people, and bad things to good people” thing?  Man, this is an old argument, and thus you have earned yourself some old-style, fire-and-brimstone protestantism as an answer:

1. Because life is tough.  There are no guarantees.  You’ve been raised up out of dust and to dust you will return and in the meantime God owes you nothing. You are entitled to nothing but six feet of earth.  Because men are whiny, vain, rebellious fools who richly deserve suffering and death.  Because God looks in hearts and sees our true motivations and finds us pathetic in our fantasies, petty ambitions, backbiting and selfishness.  He despises us as you despite a vicious, disgusting, hairy spider [or choose an animal you find repulsive] held over a flame, but in His mercy He restrains Himself from destroying the lot of us.  That’s why bad things happen.

2. We get ourselves into our own messes.  Men make the decisions that create the (social) world we live in, for good or for ill, and we have to live with the consequences or reap the benefits. You reap what you sow ... God is not mocked. Correct and holy are the judgments of God!

Take home: We should be thankful for anything good that God gives us.  The story of Hurricane Isabel is not that some died, but that anyone survived. Because He could destroy us all, or many more if He chooses.  But in His mercy He waits to see if we’ll admit that we need Him to make our free will work to any good effect.

There could be a simpler answer, too: In the words of Q, don’t explore outer space if you can’t handle a bloody nose.

Here endeth the sermon. Enjoy your day.

*Should be �they� . Even dictionaries can accidentally leave out a letter. I feel better about my mistake in my earlier post and demand you reinstate my �A�

You�re right�I�ve made several mistakes and you haven�t ragged me...you get an A-.  But to get an A+, you�ll have to write a 25 page term paper on the greatest accomplishments of the Bush Administration!  I have a feeling you�ll just stick with the A-

Bipolar Disorder is not the same as DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) but I understood the intent of your put-down nevertheless

Hell dude it just looked good�I don�t know the difference between the two!  How could I turn Brock into DID :?

I have yet to find a site more expansive and relevant than this one.

Someone notify the media�Brock and I agreed on something again�that�s twice in two weeks!  I think we should call NASA and ask if the Earth�s orbit has been altered or if the Sun is about to smash into the Earth.

Damn you Serai for interrupting a perfectly good (yet ridiculous) exchange of �ideas� between Brock and I.  I�ll forgive you though and add that I agree with the prayer thing 100%.  If two devout guys are up for a job promotion and both pray equally hard, who gets it?  One guy needs it to rain because his lawn (garden to you) is dying and another guy wants fair weather because he�s going fishing�who wins? (My money is on the fisherman).

This made me think seriously about my faith, and taken in context with the scriptures that say God is impartial and we are all precious to him it opened my eyes to how *****bogus these claims are

Bogus is not the word�I don�t even have a word for it.  Apparently we are all precious, but some of us are used as �props� in this grand play called Life.  He gives Grandma and Grandpa Alzheimer�s so their lives and their children�s� lives become a nightmare, but the faith of the children is tested.  He conversely gives little kids fatal diseases to test the faith of the parents and of course AIDS is punishment for homosexuality.  It�s also punishment for hemophilia and blood transfusions, which I�m told the JW consider �consuming blood�, so they are also bucking god’s law and are feeling his wrath.

And of course the greatest example that life is �stage play� is the Israel /Palestine production, The Intifada. This play stars the Israelis as the chosen ones, with millions of Palestinian �extras�.  God tells Israel they are to inherit the Promised Land and the Palestinians amazingly take exception to that.  Can you believe that?  I mean the Palestinians really need to get it together, because this is God�s plan�didn�t they read the script?  Somebody needs to talk to their agent.

Boy if I had two kids and significantly favored one over the other I wonder what would happen?  If I gave my favored child land and resources and gave nothing to the other child, I don�t foresee any trouble � there wouldn�t be any animosity between the two.  Is this Israel/Palestine thing Bible prophecy or self-fulfilling prophecy?  I tend towards option 2.

Now, to your point, your argument rests on the idea that God can�t do two things at once, that God is somehow limited to helping either the guy with the car keys or the molested child.

Actually no it doesn’t, maybe I should have clarified the child being molested wasn’t a ‘righteous christian’, my whole point being that the premise is that God will nip over and help the righteous find their car keys, whilst ignoring the unrighteous or those ignorant of Christianity despite the apparent greater need, and also despite his professed unbiased care of all.

Personally I don’t think God answers prayers at all, as you rightly pointed out he wouldn’t be limited to one at a time, so to uphold his own standards he would either help all or none.

For the record I am a pagan and do not believe in the god of the bible, although I do believe in a greater spirit being, am I going to discuss my beliefs further? No.

Personally I don�t think God answers prayers at all, as you rightly pointed out he wouldn�t be limited to one at a time, so to uphold his own standards he would either help all or none.

Or He would pick and choose which prayers to answer based on his own purposes, which would certainly appear mysterious to little specks of dust with three-pound brains like ourselves, incapable of creating so much as a fish yet willing to judge a God that created a universe of almost infinite proportions.

That’s why it’s called faith.  We can choose to believe in the goodness of God based on incomplete evidence, or we can choose think that in our 40 some odd spins around the sun we’ve somehow figured out something of which God is unaware.

YMMV.

Or He would pick and choose which prayers to answer based on his own purposes, which would certainly appear mysterious to little specks of dust with three-pound brains like ourselves

Rubbish sorry but it is. Either your God is the god of the bible or he isn’t, pulling that ‘ah but God has mysterious ways’ rubbish is just a cop out when someone points out that your God is at odds with the bible.

I’ve studied the bible myself, and I have seen time and time again how people define their view of God from it, and then when you point out another part of the bible that says different they go all ‘mysterious ways’ on you. From which I can only conclude one of two things, a) The bible is a load of codswallop written to control people b) God is fickle and the bible is irrelevant anyway.

For God to expect us to commit ourselves to a life changing course based upon incomplete and spurious information isn’t faith my friend, it’s downright ludicrous that’s what it is. I’d like to know how I can be judging a God when there is incomplete evidence, all I am judging is the spurious so called evidence from the bible.

You see my whole point here really is, if one person draws a conclusion from the bible, and I can draw an utterly different conclusion about precisely the same subject from the bible, then how on earth can you be dogmatic about it? Lets be honest nobody knows anything for certain about this god of the bible, it’s all supposition (You call it faith I call it supposition )