I went and had a look (that, after all, is what Hussars are supposed to do).  They seem to be mostly the kind of Christians we welcome here- pro gay etc, except for one looney “Noname"- read the “New World Order” Thread- nooney claims about WTC conspiracy etc.

Perhaps if you stay as our FO, and if you think we could pile in on a particular topic, put a call out for the SEB Fallschimjager.

I tried… I really did, but that web site design makes me want to go on a murdering spree. Why do they feel like closing everything into a tiny box, that my scroll wheel doesn’t even work in, is a good idea?

Yes, Les has superior formatting abilities here and it is a blog, not a professional website.  Kinda sad if you ask me.

Also I’ll warn you guys if there is anything which to pile in on.  From my experience it shouldn’t be that long.

It might be interesting if the fundies do try to take it over. 

The United Church of Canada is a liberal xtian church, consisting essentially of a union of Methodists and Presbyterians.  According to the Wikipedia, some of their causes have been/are:

* The espousal of universal medical care
* the ordination of women (1936 in the United Church; 1974 in the Anglican Church of Canada)
* the championing of the interests of the Palestinians
* the defense of homosexual rights, including equal marriage.
* in 1980 declared support for contraception and access to abortion
* in 2003 affirmed that “human sexual orientations, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are a gift from God and part of the marvelous diversity of creation.”

In many ways they sound a bit more liberal than the mainstream Methodist and Presbyterians of the US.  It seems that their national organization does not have a problem with gay ministers (I am not sure that there are any) or gay weddings in the church (of which there have been a few).

I just read a thread called “Christmas has got to go!”.  It seems that they are trying very hard to maintain their Canadian identity but sometimes have problems with that.  One guy had major issues concerning the Seattle-Tacoma airport taking out the xmas trees and spoke as if it were a Canadian airport that had taken out the trees.  The location of the airport was never mentioned although the other facts that were mentioned indicated that it was the Seattle airport.  In all of the discussion over this decision, which included Canadian specific shopping malls, that nobody mentioned which airport it was or even that it was not a Canadian airport.

itdontmatter: It seems that they are trying very hard to maintain their Canadian identity

I don’t understand why people see identity as important myself, it’s only categorisation

There are a number of openly gay and lesbian ministers currently serving congregations in the UCCan (I can think of six off the top of my head.)

There have been quite a few same-sex marriages officiated at by UCCan ministers (I’ve done a couple myself… and, while the denomination doesn’t compile same-sex / opposite-sex stats, I know of at least 30 other same-sex marriages officiated at by UCCan clergy-types.)

The ‘WonderCafe’ is open to anybody who wants to drop in… so we get wa… sorry - fundamentalist Christians (both fundamentalist liberals and fundamentalist conservatives) as well as people in the middle - and people who self-define as pagan, people who self-define as agnostic, and people who self-define as atheist.

Congregations in the UCCan run the gamut from “JC, personal Lord and Saviour” through to “Jesus? Well… ummm… interesting character, but the dude never lived, eh?” and everything in between.

The identity thing… well.. that’s just part of our Canadian mindset, being a geographically big and population small country to the north of the only remaining superpower.

And, yeah… the tech truly sucks.

justwanderin:  Thanks for clarifying some of my guesses.  UCCan are much more liberal than the Presbyterian and Methodist churches in the US (although some US congregations are more liberal than others). 

It sounds like UCCan are very much like the United Church of Christ (UCC) in the US, and possibly leaning toward Unitarian-Universalist (UU). 

I didn’t mean to sound like I was ragging on Canadian identity.  It was that I found it odd that nobody mentioned that it was the Seattle airport that took down the Christmas trees. 

The WonderCafe is a diverse and interesting forum.  Are Americans welcome to participate, or do we have to refrain from mentioning where we are from?

itdontmatter: I didn’t mean to sound like I was ragging on Canadian identity

Don’t worry, we know that, by ‘people’ I meant people in general. (not just canadians either, and not just national identity). Identity itself is a strange idea to me other than for practical purposes (like language), being in quite a diverse area I try to exclude it from everyday life and leave that to the polititions

itdontmatter:

No apology necessary (and I’m sorry if I came across like I was upset about the comment) - you made a fair statement, one that does speak to a Canadian reality, as well as a UCCan one.

In lots of ways, we are quite similar to the UCC in the States - except they tend to be more strongly congregationally goverened, while we *seem* to have more direction from the denominational network. I think its the addition of our Presbyterian heritage at work, there. (Though I may be quite out of it in that comparison.)

There are some congregations (and a number of people) who would be quite happy in the UU context - though most would probably be more comfortable in the Methodist tradition… some even more in one like the PCUSA, and some with our version of the Episopal Church. *grin* We really do run the gamut.

The whole idea behind the WonderCafe was to be an open forum for people to explore their spirituality (recognizing that a number of us wandering around would come from the UCCan). I’m sure there will be some people that you will have to defend why you’re there. *wry smile* I’ve been having to do the same… and, not only am I Canadian, I’m a UCCan’er. *LOL*

By the way - *great* site here!

in response to justwanderin if the united church down south is like the one up here then both luther and wesly are not just turning but screeming in their graves! This is going to seem offenseve but it is true the United church is a Gallican permission slip to the state to get little things like right and wrong out of the way so that the state can destroy religon and have a monopoly on consience so that it can control its people like Mao if anyone here dosent believe me just take a right wing stance on somthing for a day. heres the test say that you are opposed to same sex marriage;you dont hate gays you respect their right to fight for gay rightsyoumay even have gay friends or be gay yourself, but you just dont agree with them. after a day of telling people this you will get stairs like you praised hittler for the holocost! I will agree that it was hard and still is for gays in the closetbut what makes you think that being a Christian in the closet is any easier? read your bible and see what Jesus thinks about gay sex. heres a hint JESUS DOSENT LIKE!!!

Aaron… read your bible… JC didn’t ever talk about gay sex. Paul did. The Levites did. Jesus didn’t.

Technicalities aside I don’t understand right wing/religous hate in general, I have to ask why hate? Personally I don’t give a damn whether someone is gay, forein, disabled, etc, as long as it doesn’t affect their usefulness to me. What could be so wrong about something that justifies being bothered to hate? I doubt a god would have much reason to have pointless intollerance, I think people have modified religous texts to take advantage of people’s fears (even if for good intentions, like inbreeding=recessive genetic diseases show up) and in doing so strayed from the point a hypothetical JC was trying to get across.

to just wanderin then take paul’s letters out of the Bible.

To distant claws Yes I Know that Prety much everyone who follows the right seems hatefull the reason for this is because we hardly ever get a chance to voice our opinions and when we send our kids to school our views are not respected. we get called Nazis by the news for not being so called politicaly corect,we get made fun of by television by being called Homophobes, and closed minded ignorant facists. there is a university around here that permits people to be pro life but there cant be any clubs that support it, and they aent allowed to talk about what they believe. does this sound familier to anyone?

Actually, no, it doesn’t. What news programs are calling people Nazis? I need to check that out.

Aaron- appologies for delay- problems with ‘my stupid computer’TM
people might not generally agree with what the radical right stands for but the majority wont go to the effort of running an ideological hate campain, ideology is old news nowadays

Besides, its not as if you could realisticly change the system so relax and make the best of it in terms of how it affects you

Hate from the right wing tends to be directed towards people who did nothing to deserve it, and who have little effect on the person

I did not mean that they were litteraly calling us Nazis but that is how it feels. And yes im coming out Im Ideoligical but that dosent make me a whole lot different from anyone else. And quite a few members of the Christian right arnt as hateful as me {yes i admit it i HATE to say it} my mother is opposed to same sex marriage and she has gay friends! but think about it imagine life on this end of the scale trust me it is no more fun to be called a homophobe than it is to be called a Fagot{ and no incase anyone is wondering i have never called anyone a Fagot and i never would, you can oppose same sex marriage and still belive that God loves everyone you know}. there are a lot of other theological blunders that the united church has sush as the ordination of Women [and since i now Know that you are going to bring it up no I am not a sexist],i am pro life[war,ABORTION ,EXECUTION ETC..].  ALSO I HAVE NOTICED THAT JUSTWALKIN HASNT COMMENTED ON MY COMMENTS ABOUT PAUL.  PS.I WOULD LIKE TO THANK DIDTANT CLAWS FOR SAYING SOMTHING I GUESS AARON VS JUSTWALKIN MUST HAVE BEEN PRETTY ENTERTAINING.  PSS.FROM ABORTION ONWARD ALL THE LETTERS ARE CAPATALISED THIS SIGNIFIES THAT THE SHIFT KEY ON MY COMPUTOR IS STUCK.

pS AGAIN I APOLIGISE WELCOME LES.AND AS FOR MY COMENTS ABOUT CERTIN RIGHT WING CLUBS BEING REPPRESED YOU WILL HAVE TO LOOK IN A CHURCH PAPER OR REALLY ASK AROUND. GETTING THE OPPIONS OF THE RIGHT IN PRINT IS LIKE GETTING THE SAUDI AUTHORITYS TO GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO SAY THE ROSERY IN THE kABBA.

SORRY ABOUT TWO THINGS WELCOMING LES SINCE HE OR SHE RUNS THIS SITE AND I AM ALEX IN THE LAST ONE .I GOT MY NAME MIXED UP WITH SOMONE ELSE.

Aaron - I didn’t realize that you wanted a response.

There is no need to take Paul’s words out of the bible. There is a need to recognize when and where he wrote them - and the fact that he (like we) are products of the culture one grows up in.

I could argue that Paul’s words are no more (and no less) sacred than your own, or mine, or any other human being’s.

And I repeat what I said earlier… JC didn’t say anything about same-sex relationships.

Ah, Aaron… about the ordination of women… ah, never mind… I’m not going to change your mind. And you don’t have a chance at changing mine, on this one.

The bible’s sometimes clouded but I think the overall message JC tries to get across is to find peace of mind such that it’s in harmony with unconditional love. ‘Love’ doesn’t mean romance or blind approval, and can be tough (like when a parent tells their child to study), but is a kind of baseline care and respect for all things concious

I think the reason for the message intended in holy books being clouded is due to modifications

Any restraint when your mind wants to hurt someone is to be commended

I completely agree with distantclaws about God’s Love!But that has nothing to do with right or wrong in the eyes of God.And to just walkin since Paul’s letters are part of the Bible and even if they are his own personal opinions they are more sacred than any of our opnions[since it is after all the Bible].and Les to say that it is imposable to blaspheme god Is deffinately controdictory to scripture In both testaments i will get the exact verses later and Mark twain was a great author but i would hardly call him a theologin he wrote tom sawyer not the gospel of mark. but I will take quotes from Martin luther,St.augestine,Mother teresia etc… on the gronnds that THEY DEVOTED THEIR LIVES TO THE STUDY OF SCRIPTURE. oh no the shift key again. and the challange to take a conservitive stance on anything is genuine, SEROIUSLY TRY IT!!!!!!!

Aaron- I would expect god would need a reason to consider something right or wrong, otherwise it would be arbitary and people who are nice but violate an arbitary rule (like sexuality) would wonder what was so wrong with their actions, become alienated with god and not understand why they might be being punished and so not learn from it
A loving god wouldn’t write anyone off permanently, there would be no point in allowing that person to exist if trapped permanently in hell and nothing would be achieved

That said nothing is necesarily right or wrong as long as you are at peace with the consequences that come as part of the deal

There is no real reason to prefer heaven over hell, happiness over sadness or comfort over pain, evolution assigns some of these feelings to actions that will make us more statisticly probable to survive but there is still no reason to favour a particular feeling

Likewise existance, permanent or otherwise is not necesarily good, but has consequences