I thought I saw you there.  It is the whole reason why I came to this site today.  You were the man who stood up and spoke of being a libertarian-liberal correct?

Anyways I feel your pain about that man’s comment.  As I was watching the broadcast, I yelled in rage You have got to be KIDDING ME!  IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK US.

Don’t let it get to you, at least the one guy mentioned that it was pretty much accepted that Iraq didn’t attack us.

“Why of course the people don’t want war .... That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

This statement was made in 1933 by Herman Goerring, Hitler’s field marshall. Spooky!!!

You did well.  It was unfortunate the format was so staged and not a little more free debate but I guess you use what you have available.

Oh, don’t you hate that? It hits me alot: “hey, can I borrow some hindsight from tomorow?” Or on a really bad day, maybe from next week.

I think sometimes the input we get is so offensive that it generates a sort of shock with a (loosely speaking) paralyzing effect. The brain seems to say, “well that’s so disgusting it just can’t be real - there’s no sane way I should have to be equipped to respond to that.” Unfortunately, this seems to happen to input I get repeatedly, so familiarity doesn’t nix the shock process, if the material is horrid enough.

The WWII comparison is definitely horrid enough, but I notice I’m describing a pathology that may be mine alone. Don’t mean to implicate you by commiserating. At any rate, I can empathize with the frustration, and I’m glad you were out there at all, having your voice heard.

This reminds me of ancient Chinese saying...."He who speaks does not know;He who knows does not speak.”....the wise man can hold his toungue even while an idiot babbles. I think you did fine Les. We need more people like you: willing to be a voice of reason.

I have to say I respect your patience and level of control I think I would have had a hard time acting anything except saying “The Ministry of Truth called, they want their products back”, in a variety of forms loudly throughout what they dress up as truth.

One of the many nice things about Canada (having lived their for a year), is that most of the conservatives (and there still aren’t a lot of them anyway) are ghettoed in Alberta (where I was), however Alberta also seems to be rather fond of the NDP (green peace loving socialism ) which is canada’s 3rd party and rather successfuly .

Also I failed to meet anyone while there who would really be classfied even as a moderate conservative, everyone seemed pretty liberal except the Premier (who didn’t even graduate high school) and I didn’t actually meet him, apparently calgary isn’t as liberal as Edmonton.

Les- I didn’t get to see you.  I hope the show will be available on the net sometime.  I can only second what Amy said- hindsight is 20/20 vision.  I know exactly how frustrating it is, and how hard it is to let go of obsessively reconstructing how it could have been.  However it was, you are doing a great job here of presenting your viewpoint, and have made a great space for all of us to gambol and spit and holler in.  That alone has earned you a spot in Atheist’s Heaven.

les,

“There is nothing at all similar between the Iraq War and World War II”

Well, if your equate Hitler and Bush, then I can see the “WWII bullshit”

I was a little disappointed with the show, just because it was not what I expected.

jim

There is nothing at all similar between the Iraq War and World War II and trying to claim that there is should be considered a slap in the face to everyone who fought in WWII.

Yet it would not have been a slap in the face to sit back and let all those Americans die with no recourse?

I’m not saying Iraq was the one to blame, but it was time some one stood up and said “You bastards better leave us alone.” The Taliban and their cohorts have been attacking America for ever, and you think we should be doing nothing about it?

Saddam was a bad man, that’s all there really is to it. He needed to be restrained and I’m happy we finally had a president with enough balls to do it.

I can empathize with the frustration, and I’m glad you were out there at all, having your voice heard.
- Amy

What Amy said.  Plus, I bet the other guy had been on TV a lot and knew what to expect.  I’ll bet his first time on TV he was hitting himself on the forehead, saying; “Did you hear what that liberal said?!!  And I just sat there, politely shaking my head!”

zilch, just what would Atheists’ Heaven look like??

Yet it would not have been a slap in the face to sit back and let all those Americans die with no recourse?

I’m not saying Iraq was the one to blame, but it was time some one stood up and said “You bastards better leave us alone.� The Taliban and their cohorts have been attacking America for ever, and you think we should be doing nothing about it?

I seriously can’t believe you’re sitting here and suggesting that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but we needed to kick someone’s ass and Iraq was as good a choice as any other nation as being somehow even a remotely reasonable line of thinking.

We took out the Taliban and we were engaged in a manhunt for the person most directly responsible for the events of 9/11. How the fuck is that letting “all those Americans” die with no recourse? How was attacking Iraq in any way shape or form anything to do with the events of 9/11?

Saddam was a bad man, that’s all there really is to it. He needed to be restrained and I’m happy we finally had a president with enough balls to do it.

If that’s all the justification we need then why aren’t we taking out Iran, North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, and all the other countries that have what we consider to be “bad men” at the helm? There are a lot of people elsewhere in the world who seem to think that George Bush is a war criminal guilty of thousands of needless deaths for piss-poor reasons and who are fearful that we may attack them at any time without warning. Are you suggesting that those countries would be fully justified in invading us in a pre-emptive attack to liberate us from what they perceive to be an evil and corrupt leader?

If it’s good for the goose…

And let’s not forget George Bush Sr. and the CIA, when Iran was the enemy the couldn’t have been better friends and arms dealers for Saddam.  the bad guys are only bad when the are in the way of American corporate policy (most days).  The U.S. government has a long track record of supporting brutal dictators with military assistance in the name of “Freedom”, freedom for whom exactly?  if you live in the 3rd world and you have resource America wants you’d better not vote socialist, caus e amilitary coup is shortly to follow.

So I’m sitting in my hotel room in Atlanta this morning, flipping through channels, and I run across this “The National” show on CSPAN ... and, hey, wasn’t Les going to be on that?  And, hey, they’re talking about US/Canada stuff.  And, hey, is that ... yeah, shaved head ... yeah, looks like he has a beard ...

And, hey, I think that’s Les in close-up, though a woman’s head is in the way, and he looks a little shifty-eyed ...

I missed the first half or so (and I’ve been offline the past 48h or so), so I’m not sure if you got a chance to speak, but it was eerily neat seeing you there in that thar television box.  Fun.

(And, yes, the “Iraq is WWII” guy was a dolt, though I thought the general level of commentary was not all that impressive ...)

I am shocked.

There are no other words than I am shocked. The stupidity of some people just makes me laugh. The man who stated that Iraq and the second World War were similar in the light of the United States being attacked, I shook my head. After he was finished, and the second man stated that he was CLEARLY wrong, I applauded.

When the lady claiming that christians founded this country, Canada, and that the judicial system is based upon it, I shook my head. She spoke of being ashamed of being Canadian. I say that she should be ashamed for not knowing anything about her country. She is obviously and elderly lady, one who has seen much more than myself; But when an 18 year old Computer Systems Tech student knows more about HISTORY than someone OLDER than himself, I laugh. I know that even one such as herself was not alive when Canada was founded, although he though it amusing, I still think that examples in the past state that Canada was not based on a christian foundation. Furthermore, I am shocked that one can believe such rabble. Is the Canadian Judicial System based on the bible? So homosexuals are condemned without proof? Men own women? Stoning people to death is acceptable? Clearly it is not.

When the man who moved from Canada, claiming that George Bush holds his values more clearly than the Canadian government does, I shook my head. The same man who said George Bush held his ideals states that he follows strong leaders, leaders how tell the truth. Is it not common knowledge that George Bush had lied during the election process? Also, is it not common knowledge that George Bush appealed to the christian populace as a way to get re-elected? The man states he does not follow leaders who use the polls just to get re-elected, yet Bush is his hero. Oh, sweet irony.

There were some sane people though. Not to sound bias, but most Canadian speakers held views that I agreed with, especially the man who spoke last. Iraq did not start this war. Also, there are more sides than with or against. It is more of a threat than a statement when the words, “You are either with or against me,� are spoken. If someone said that to me, I would defiantly be offended. And if the leader of my country offended me, you can bet I would not vote for him again.

Enough of criticizing people on their stupidity. Les, you looked and sounded exactly like I thought you would. I even knew you’d have the quiet voice that contrasts the big biker framed body and shaved head. I thought you did a good job expressing your view. It was a very good point, one that completely obliterated the point of the man who said “Good riddance.�

I had only a little time to catch part of the program on the net so I can’t honestly comment on it .  But I can say you made me proud listening to your comment.

Les - you really did a fine job and if you had tried to interject during someone else’s commentary you would have probably been edited out.  This way, you got a little TV exposure and they saw that you’re intelligent and well spoken.  Maybe they’ll keep you in mind for something else in the future where you can showcase your talent.  If you had just drummed that guy you would be out of the picture completely.

The Iraq war is likened to WWII in the fact that a lot of people are dead.  Beyond that, the similarities are non-existent,

I seriously can’t believe you’re sitting here and suggesting that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but we needed to kick someone’s ass and Iraq was as good a choice as any other nation

What I am suggesting is that it had become judgment day, not that we threw a dart at a map and said “Oh goodie Iraq again.” Iraq was chosen as the first of the bad men because he was considered the biggest threat via multinational intelligence.

And I’m also suggesting that the day has come for these folks you fingered:

Iran, North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Cuba

We’ve been working with them and given that talking fails I bet you Bush will be taking them out too.

We launched a War on Terror and each and every country that falls into a terrorist category weather by direct involvement or indirect will hear from us.
That’s fair is it not? Or again are you suggesting just bending over and taking it while Veterans sit back and say “Why did my best friends have to die in (insert war here) if we aren’t going to defend this Nation anymore?”

Are you suggesting that those countries would be fully justified in invading us in a pre-emptive attack to liberate us from what they perceive to be an evil and corrupt leader?

Yup. Valid fear of attack, after diplomatic routs have failed, is a justification for force. Isn’t that the way things work? A hostage taker is negotiated with and once it is determined that he will not let things end peacefully he is forcefully taken down.

WICKID WICKID! My first impression of you was so different than the one I currently have. Then you made a humorous remark and I laughed. Now you’re starting to scare me.

are you suggesting just bending over and taking it

You got a point there.  I mean, what with all that dieing that the Iraqis did in the first gulf war, and then all that dieing that they’re doing in this gulf war.  When people just starting getting their asses kicked repeatedly by you, you can’t let them think they can get away with it.  You gotta pile on and kick the shit out of ‘em, so that they don’t start thinking that they can just get killed over and over without any consequences.

Man, after the way they “stuck it to us,” with all that dieing, and thinking evil thoughts about us, I agree with you-- time to stop “bending over.”

Why do I get the feeling that on Stupid Evil Bastard Arabic Edition someone just posted:

Yet it would not have been a slap in the face to sit back and let all those Muslims die with no recourse?

I’m not saying New York City was the one to blame, but it was time some one stood up and said “You bastards better leave us alone.� The Americans and their cohorts have been attacking us and forcing corrupt dictators on us forever, and you think we should be doing nothing about it?

The American Government is full of bad man, that’s all there really is to it. It needed to be dealt with and I’m happy Sheikh Osama had enough balls to do it.

So why do people equate Iraq to WWII? Probably because they are only following their leader.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/01/bush-foreign-policy041201.html

Bush urges Canada to ‘take the fight to them’
Last Updated Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:49:36 EST

HALIFAX - U.S. President George W. Bush suggested Canada should take a more active role in his “war on terrorism” in a speech he gave in Halifax on Wednesday.

Three years after the worst-ever attacks against civilians on American soil, Bush said Canada had a duty to do more to ward off potential threats to North America.

He raised the example of a former prime minister, William Lyon Mackenzie King, who did not wait for Hitler’s Nazis to attack Canada before sending troops to fight in the Second World War.

Bush quoted King’s words directly: “We cannot defend our country and save our homes and families by waiting for our enemies to attack us. To remain on the defensive is the surest way to bring the war to Canada.”

The president added: “Mackenzie King was correct then and we must always remember his words today… There is only one way to deal with enemies who plot in secret and set out to murder the innocent and the unsuspecting. We must take the fight to them.”

In March 2003, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien angered Bush when he refused to send Canadian troops to join the U.S.-led military coalition to topple Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

Relations have been chilly ever since.

“We are bound by history and geography and trade and by our deepest convictions,” Bush said of the relationship between the two countries. “With so much at stake, we cannot be divided.”

Hmmm, let’s see…

Nazis
kills: millions in a few years
countries taken over: quite a few

Terrorists
kills: a few thousand over decades
countries taken over: 0

Yep that’s just as bad.

[/sarcasm]

So why do people equate Iraq to WWII? Probably because they are only following their leader.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Just for fun:

Auto accidents -
Kills: about 1.1 million a year
Countries taken over: All of ‘em, I think.

Tobacco -
Kills: about 5 million people a year.
Countries taken over: Well, pretty much the whole developing world

Living -
Kills: everybody, eventually.
Countries taken over… well, you get the idea.

Why aren’t these things evil?  Because there’s no intent to kill - it’s just part of the risk of daily life as users benefit from the activity.  But with terrorists there is intent to kill, so we correctly say; “evil.”

The terrorists pretty much took over Afghanistan and several other countries are pock-marked with terrorist enclaves.  But except for very concentrated areas, fighting them militarily only ends up making more terrorists faster than we can kill them.  In the end the only way we’ll beat terrorism is judo, not boxing.  Undermine support at the street level by better foreign policy. 

Supporting thugs seems to be the main complaint, along with exploitation of economic resources.  Well, fine.  Our foreign policy should be directed at fostering stable economies and security for people at all economic levels.  To do that, we’ll need to accept that 1) we don’t control the world, and 2) even if we did, it isn’t ours to control.

Are terrorists as bad as Nazis?  Sure, in some ways; including targeting civilians.  In sheer numbers and scope of effect, no.