Oh, and sorry to double dip, but I just found this list on the official website of my mom´s church:
Top 10 Reasons to Be an Episcopalian:

10. No snake handling.

9. You can believe in dinosaurs.

8. Male and female, God created them; male and female, we ordain them.

7. You don’t have to check your brains at the door.

6. Pew aerobics.

5. Church year is color-coded.

4. Free wine on Sunday.

3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt.

2. You don’t have to know how to swim to get baptized.

And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:

1. No matter what you believe, there’s bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.

The Unitarians are cool, too. I hear they believe in life before death.

Ulfrekr: 1. No matter what you believe, there’s bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.

I like the other ones too. 

Thanks for the kind words, Les.

It’s a pity a church has to go on public record, in 2006, that evolution isn’t in conflict with Scripture, to not sound like a bunch of flat-earthers.

And, yes, Ulrekr, I like the list, too.  All high on my list of liking hanging with the Episcopalians.

Itdontmatter, I haven’t read in detail all the outcomes of the General Convention.  They did elect a female (and pro-gay marriage) Presiding Bishop, and the day before the resolution you mention, they also formally declined to ban such further consecrations.  I suspect the resolution you’re pointing at was a wishy-washy compromise to try to stay at the table with the rest of the Anglican Communion for at least another few years; it’d disappointing, at the very least (being luke-warm is rarely satisfying nor, in fact, moral), but it’s part of the dialectic of wrestling with changing times and understanding.

but it’s part of the dialectic of wrestling with changing times and understanding.

lot of truth in that statement and it could be applied in a lot of places and situations as well
AWJ

This sounds exactly like the sort of church atheists are always complaining about.  In fact, haven’t I seen something a lot like this on the SEB home page?

Episcopalian, n. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

Ulfrekr: All of the pageantry - none of the guilt.

All the pageantry - none of the spirituality.

All the pageantry - none of the sacrfice.

All the pageantry - none of that pesky “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me” talk by that Jesus guy.

If all you care about is pageantry, why not stay home and watch the Oscars?

Ulfrekr: Most Episcopalians I´ve met also have an unsurprisingly British attitude towards religion- it´s all well and good for a Sunday, but no reason to get your knickers in a twist.

Ulfrekr, anyone can be religious for an hour on a Sunday morning.  If you will not carry your convictions out into the world, then what good are they?

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.  Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.  Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.”

Here is what Christ had to say about this “leave it in the pews” approach to religion:

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot.  I wish you were either cold or hot.  So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.”

Note that the word translated as “spit” is actually “vomit” in the latin ("evomere").  Lukewarm faith is nauseating to Christ.

The Unitarians are cool, too. I hear they believe in life before death.

lol it true. 

I am a big fan of the Unitarians, considering that if you’re a member of the church, you have freedom to believe in what you want.  That is extremely rare for any religion.

moses: I think there is a general concensus that the bible is not to be taken literaly, so why do we continue to let people quote from it to make a point.

And here we have the logical conclusion of atheism’s war against the Bible.

First, they didn’t want anyone talking about the Bible when the subject was science.

Then, we were supposed to keep our mouths shut when the subject was good governance.

Then, they wanted us to keep quiet about the Bible’s lessons in matters of ethics and morals.

And now here it is at last: Moses wonders why Christians insist on quoting from the Bible when the subject at hand is.. I kid you not.. Christian Theology!

Listen, everyone believes in exactly what they want and nothing more. If that were not the case then we would all supposedly be as holy as Jesus, or Muhammad, or the Dali Lama.
Instead we are all like the Dali Lama’s cousin Fernando!

Daryl, everyone, including you, picks and chooses.  You just choose the parts that let you feel superior to all those sinners.

“Atheism” is not at war against the Bible, but we are not too fond of people using the Bible as a bludgeon with which to defend the darker centuries of man’s existence.

The Bible is not a science book.  It supports the governance of kings and the legitimacy of slavery.  Yet, on the subject of mercy to the poor, you Christianists seem to be reading a severely edited version.

Funny that God hates all the same people you do.

Daryl, please, I can only take so much giggling in one day. Who would’ve thought my little atheistic endorsement would bring out so much jealousy from you?

Wow, Daryl, I have to hand it to you--you do the True Believer schtick very well.

You begin by pulling the No True Scotsman card:

The Episcopalian Church in the USA ceased to be a Christian church in any meaningful sense years ago.

And several posts later you end with a revelation of the Christianists’ war fetish:

And here we have the logical conclusion of atheism’s war against the Bible.

By the way, out of perhaps morbid curiosity, what denomination or sect do you consider yourself a follower of, Daryl?

Episcopalian, n. One who follows the teachings of Christ in so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

Gee Daryl . . .How arrogant of you to set yourself up as judge and decide that you know what is in people’s hearts!

“Who are you to judge another?” James 4:12

“. . . be not wise in your own conceits.” Romans 12:16

Here’s what Jesus had to say about people like you:

“Judge not . . .” See Matthew 7:1-5

See, this is one of the difficulties I have: You fundies claim the high ground and yet your sublime arrogance would be contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

Ulfrekr, anyone can be religious for an hour on a Sunday morning.

Not me.  When I had to go, usually with the one grandmother or the other, I was bored to tears.  I now enjoy going to church, because I only do so if I’m performing there.  But I’m not religious, unless blissing out on Bach or Josquin counts.

Note that the word translated as “spitâ€? is actually “vomitâ€? in the latin ("evomere").  Lukewarm faith is nauseating to Christ.

Are you a mackeral snapper too, Daryl?  Not that it matters, but otherwise, it’s a bit peculiar that you quote from the Vulgate Bible.  In the original (well, more original) Greek, the word is “á¼?μέσαι” (from whence “emetic").  This, too, means “vomit”.  Do I have a point here?  Not really, but I had fun tooling around this site, which has several different versions of the Bible in original languages, and translates each word you pause the mouse over.  Check it out.

And here we have the logical conclusion of atheism’s war against the Bible.

Well, Daryl, DoF speaks for me.  I’ll just add that we atheists would be at war against Dumbo, too, if Dumboists were trying to convince kids in public schools to jump off cliffs holding feathers.

***Dave— There were two different votes regarding gay bishops.  The first vote declined to ban the consecration of gay bishops, pretty luke warm, but a reasonable compromise. 

Just hours before the end of the nine-day meeting they voted to “exercise restraint” in the consecration of gay candidates for bishop. The second vote was timed so that any further debate on the issue would not be possible and it had the effect of slapping the gay members of the US Episcopal Church in the face in order to appease the homophobic conservatives. 
aren’t allowed to get lo
The only xtian churches that don’t have influential conservative elements are the MCC (Metropolitan Community Church) and the UCC (United Church of Christ). 

The Unitarian-Universalist Churches are very cool too, I think that about 20% of UU’s would identify themselves as being xtian.  UU’s welcome athiests, however an athiest may be asked why he believes that he is an athiest and not an agnostic. 

UU joke: Fellow goes to a UU service for the first time, and later is asked what he thought of it. “Darndest church I ever went to,” he replies, “the only time I heard the name of Jesus Christ was when the minister spilled coffee on her robe.”

Another UU joke: A young Unitarian was visiting a Christian church when the pastor asked if she were saved. She whispered, “In my church, we don’t get lost.”

From the book The plain truth about God-101

“The Bible is full of so many stories of a contradictory nature and moral purpose that every generation can find scriptural justification for nearly any action it proposes, from incest, to slavery and mass murder, to the most refined love, courage and self-sacrifice.  Indeed, this has surely contributed to its survival.â€? 
-- Carl Sagan

The bible being the most successful “meme” of all time: “A contagious, self-replicating thought or idea that spreads amongst the population!”

Daniel Dennett, in his book Consciousness Explained, says this: “The haven that all Memes depend on reaching is the human mind.

But a human mind is itself an artifact created when Memes restructure a human brain in order to make it a better habitat for themselves. 
The avenues of entry and departure are modified to suit local conditions, and are strengthened by various artificial means to enhance fidelity in replication!â€? 

Susan Blackmore, (The Meme Machine) has pointed out that many religious beliefs exemplify Memic selection, especially those that advocate spreading “The Message.â€? 

In this context Christianity, Islam and Judaism are highly successful Memes.  Through the idea of a father-like God, they offer a sense of purpose, of security, and of belonging that is familiar and attractive to all humans. 

At the social level, they provide cultural identity, legitimize social structures, and sanctify moral codes.

Like all good Memes, the religious ones protect themselves in various ways. 

First they place absolute reliance on faith, which precludes any introduction of reason that would be detrimental to the Meme.
Secondly, they also have a naturally embedded “catch 22� situation.

** “This Meme says it is the Divine truth; so whatever it says must be true! Therefore it must be Divine truth because it says so and all competing memes must be the work of the devil!�

Upon detailed analysis of Memes, we usually see the following features that help it establish itself in the minds of its host.

1. Promise heaven for belief!
2. Threaten eternal punishment for disbelief!
3. Boost the believer’s egos by telling them they are “chosenâ€? or “superiorâ€? to believers of false memes! 
4. Disable the means to disbelieve by claiming that faith is superior to reason!
5. Establish itself as the “One True Meme,� usually by some sort of holy book containing catch 22 situations.

This is a doctrine known as exclusivist, and unfortunately, certain sects of Christianity went to great lengths to claim that they were the one true faith and the other denominations of Christianity were corrupt, (or even in league with the Anti-Christ).

To this day “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus� (No salvation outside our Church) is still the official doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Now once it has established itself in the mind of its host, (congregation) a Meme needs to propagate itself.  Therefore, a successful Meme will contain instructions for some or all of the following:
A.  Holy War - convert or kill all non-believers
B.  Intimidation - threaten and discriminate against unbelievers! 
C.  Social isolation or “death to apostates.â€?
D.  Encourage believers to breed faster than believers in false Memes! 
E.  Dis-information - spread lies about rival Memes. 
Demonize them. 
F.  The bigger the lie the more likely it is to be believed!

Now here comes the good part—we have had many centuries, even millennia, to perfect this way of thinking and have it down to a science. 
(Not an “Art,� it is now at the point where it is a “Science.�)

These two types of self-referential statements, “propagate me� and “I am the only truth� provide the driving force for Memes to invade the minds of their hosts and spread throughout susceptible populations.

In addition, all religious Memes contain the instructions “help people who believe in this Meme, attack people who do not!�
And there you have it; an instant recipe for religious war!

Daryl
moses: I think there is a general concensus that the bible is not to be taken literaly, so why do we continue to let people quote from it to make a point.
And here we have the logical conclusion of atheism’s war against the Bible.

This appears to say the whole bible is literally true.

Is this bit true?

Genesis
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 

Day one - night and day

1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.  “He made the stars also.”
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, “And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.”
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. 

Sun and moon fourth day.  The position of the Sun does not cause night and day.  The light is independent.

Note also the use of the word DAY. We’ve measured stuff. The universe is old.  Far older than the bible allows for. We have measured stars 1000s upon 1000s of light years away.

Now some will tell you a day isn’t 24 hours, but thousands of years.  Not what a stone age Jew would have understood by the word day.

Some say God just made the universe look old.  Where in the bible does it say that?

Some say the measurements are wrong. Every mathematical means we have seem to confirm what we have.  No creationist has ever shown one of these starts to be less than 6000ly by any verifiable means.  If you could you would be on the money train, no matter what your belief. Hell, an athiest who could prove a young universe would go for it.

Some say the laws of physics changed.  See comment above.

How do we know the bible is accurate?  Who actually said that it is?  How do we know they are telling the truth?

Daryl: And here we have the logical conclusion of atheism’s war against the Bible.

Mate, I doubt many here are at ‘war against the bible’ per se.
It’s just a bit of a mystery, to me anyway, that True Believersâ„¢ can’t see the glaringly obvious contradictions dotted throughout a piece of work put together, and voted on, a little over 1600 years ago, by mortal men with their own agenda.
True Believersâ„¢ hold the book up as the ‘word of god’ because it says so in the book which even you will have to agree is typical circular logic.
I’m currently reading the Jesus Papers by Michael Baigent. It’s interesting.
One quote he mentions from the bible is from Luke 17:20/21 – The kingdom of god doesn’t come with observation. Behold, the kingdom of god is within.
I take that to mean we are all gods and meditative peace, love and tranquillity is anywhere I am.
I shared some time over the weekend with different family members and friends.
When asked what I do, I said that, amongst other things, I played on the SEB site. What is that?
I started by saying SEB was a bunch of atheists who knew the bible better than most xians.
It sounded a little all-encapsulating and severely limited so I padded it a bit with: a bunch of people who practice a Search for Truth and Fun, Honour, Integrity, Justice for all, for its own reward because it’s the right thing to do, not because of some threat of hell.
Well, it sounded good to me.

It’s just a bit of a mystery, to me anyway, that True Believers™ can’t see the glaringly obvious contradictions dotted throughout a piece of work put together, and voted on, a little over 1600 years ago, by mortal men with their own agenda.

They are actually well aware of it. I hear that you buy tons of books in Christian bookstores that try to reconcile these contradictions.

I started by saying SEB was a bunch of atheists who knew the bible better than most xians.

That’s not really all that hard. I get the feeling that if you open the Bible and read a page at random, you already know more about it than many True Believers.

Come to think of it, it’s pushing 40 years since I last peeked in one.

I’m just sitting here wondering what the hell the point was that “Last Hussar” was trying to make! Well they do say to keep your mind exercised as well as your body as you get older so thanks to Last Hussar, I got my workout today!

One quote he mentions from the bible is from Luke 17:20/21 – The kingdom of god doesn’t come with observation. Behold, the kingdom of god is within.

From http://www.God-101.com

One of the core sayings of Jesus was “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say ‘Lo, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For behold, that kingdom of God is in the midst of you.â€?

Jesus tells us quite clearly that the “Kingdom of God” is not a coming kingdom, or a future kingdom, but rather something already in and amongst his disciples.  It is not a place, but rather a state of mind!
To quote James Breech once more: ”Your concept of the kingdom of God, whether it belongs to the future mythological conceived, in either eschatological or apocalyptic terms, misses the reality of the kingdom.
The symbolism really refers to a power that is a basic factor in human experience!”

Daryl, you seem to have missed that I was explaining why I would choose Episcopalian if I had to choose a denomination. Of course the things that would appeal to me, as a non-religious person, would be the aspects of the church that could hold some secular appeal. This doesn´t imply however that actual members of the church don´t find a real spiritual aspect to all of the same stuff. The “pageantry”, for example, might not mean anything to me beyond the pretty colors and sounds, but that doesn´t mean that it can´t hold some deeper significance to someone else.

Ulfrekr, anyone can be religious for an hour on a Sunday morning.  If you will not carry your convictions out into the world, then what good are they?

I apologize for making it sound like Episcopalians can´t carry their convictions out into the world. I made it sound as though they believe something different on Sunday than they do the rest of the week, when in fact I think it´s the opposite: their experiences during the majority of the week tend to dictate what they believe on Sunday. I´m aware this might sound like watered-down spirituality to some, but I think many Episcopalians would contradict that assumption more passionately that I can be bothered to.

“Last Hussar�

Please- no quotation marks

wondering what the hell the point was that Last Hussar was trying to make!

I refer you to Daryls reply to

moses: I think there is a general concensus that the bible is not to be taken literaly, so why do we continue to let people quote from it to make a point.

which was

And here we have the logical conclusion of atheism’s war against the Bible.

Daryl appeared to be defending a literal translation of the Bible.  I wished to show in the first few paragraphs that there was an instance that surely could not be taken as the literal truth, namely day was created before the sun.  Maybe their is a Chapter that says

1:And God looked upon the set-up for night and day and he saw that it was not good. 2: And he looked unto the sun and thought 3:"What the hell was I thinking- why don’t I stick that big ball of flaming gas in the middle, and use that for the light 4: For lo! It shall reduce the energy bill no end.

Maybe I missed that.  It may be next to the bit where Jesus orders pork chops for the last supper, and tells the others “Dad’s had a change of mind- don’t worry about kosher anymore”.  Would certainly explain the whole “Eat this Bread, it is my body” thing.

so thanks to Last Hussar, I got my workout today!

You’re welcome.  Invoice is in the post. (Buy 10 workouts, get 2 free!) (Conditions apply)

A.  Holy War - convert or kill all non-believers
B.  Intimidation - threaten and discriminate against unbelievers!
C.  Social isolation or “death to apostates.â€?
D.  Encourage believers to breed faster than believers in false Memes!
E.  Dis-information - spread lies about rival Memes.
Demonize them.
F.  The bigger the lie the more likely it is to be believed!

A few brief responses:

1. The same could be said for atheism, well except for the breeding part. But historically, Christians bred faster simply because they did not practice abortion and female infanticide. In current times, it is more that atheists are well below replacement levels.
2. It is interesting to watch atheists put so much stake in the non-falsifiable pseudo-science of memetics.
3. Didn’t Daniel Dennett warn you about not granting intentionality to artifacts? Oh wait, Dennett is a leading proponent of memetic

It’s just a bit of a mystery, to me anyway, that True Believers™ can’t see the glaringly obvious contradictions dotted throughout a piece of work put together, and voted on, a little over 1600 years ago, by mortal men with their own agenda.
True Believers™ hold the book up as the ‘word of god’ because it says so in the book which even you will have to agree is typical circular logic.
I’m currently reading the Jesus Papers by Michael Baigent. It’s interesting.

A good rule of thumb: books that say “Exposing the greatest cover-up in history” on their cover should be left for the candy aisle at the supermarket. Stay away from the DaVinci code “scholarship” because all you will do is damage your own credibility. If you want some reputable skeptical scholarship, check out the Jesus Seminar instead.

There is an evidentialist case for the historicity of Jesus and the New Testament. Check out N.T. Write or Gary Habermas. Or read one of the debate books if reading the arguments of people that you disagree with is a gloomy thought. William Lane Craig and Gary Habermas have both participated in published debates with Jesus Seminar skeptics.

Justin it’s absolutely true that Christians have more children than ahtiests so I would not be too worried about them.
Eventually the athiests will will dwindle away to nothing while you propogate and prosper. Wait my friend, all you have to do is out-fuck them!!