No shit, dude!!!  And I thought that the stock market was the be all end all.  When I said that I was not talking about the patterns of Wall Street, you chimed in, “That is the business cycle.” So, I just provided a chart to show that they are not totally interlinked.  Of course the overall economy is composed of multiple facets- GDP, industrial production, unemployment rates, real manufacturing and trade sales, real personal income, credit to debt ratios, inflation, etc… If I treid to post all of those charts, Les would ban me from the site for gobbling up all of his bandwidth!

Che is a good choice, he wasn’t afraid to die for his cause, and he understood that his cause was bigger than his life.  Right before he was killed he is reported to have said something along the lines of Go ahead, kill me you cowards.  I may die, but you cannot defeat my cause.”

But my choice would be Thomas Jefferson.  He wouldn’t let these fundie christians and fascists get away with all the bullshit they are getting away with.

I think Che’s exact words were, “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!”

My favorite saying of Che’s is “Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arodillado.” I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

But my choice would be Thomas Jefferson.  He wouldn’t let these fundie christians and fascists get away with all the bullshit they are getting away with.

“A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” --Thomas Jefferson

Apply that litmus test and Jefferson would roll back the federal government to the size it was before the New Deal. In the graph below federal spending on social programs would revert back to zero and we’d be left with a military, interest on the debt and a few minor miscellaneous things.

My favorite saying of Che’s is “Prefiero morir de pie que vivir arodillado.� I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

I would take Patrick Henry’s quote: “Give me liberty or give me death.”

Of course, liberty and socialism are incompatible.

I like reasoning better than quoting.

The majority of Americans *still* favor the New Deal.  Indeed, many Americans still remember the massive eldery-poor the pre-NewDeal era.

One of the biggest roles of government i favor is that of maintaining and fostering an increase of justice within society.  Forced Racial Integration of our schools, for example, was a fantastic, verging on holy act of government.

Or, voting rights for women.

If we wanted to run America like a Pack of Wolves, then yes, we’d have some bare-bones, socially-inactive government.  Instead, most Americans want a Just Society where the weak are protected from the strong and self-centred.

But my choice would be Thomas Jefferson.

I agree. He’s one of my idols.

He’s also on my list of People You’d Bring Back from the Dead to Have a Beer With.

A quick anecdotal followup: I’ve known a lot more Jeff Spicolis than Carl Sagans.

Who’s fault is that.

You probably have met some Sagans, you just didn’t realize it. I hate the Spicoli=pot smokers stereotype. The thing is, the Spicoli types are easier to identify and that’s why people think all pot smokers are wastoids...it’s all they ever see if they’re not part of the RICH underground culture of tokers.

You’d be hard pressed to identify me or any of my friends as people who partake. And I mean regularly. If the scare tactics were true, we’d all be Spicoli’d by now. And some of them have alot of years on me (approaching retirement).

My fellow tokers are anything but wastoids. They’re captains of industry, owners of large corporations, accountants, lawyers, ER doctors...you name it. Hell, one is both doctor AND lawyer. Not an uneducated or unsuccessful wastoid in the bunch.

Sure, I’ve met the wastoid types. Who hasn’t? I think those people were a little light on the brain cells before they ever smoked their first joint...and they’d likely be the same way even if they didn’t smoke. It’s a function of their personality, not the weed.

As long as alcohol is legal (and it should be), so should weed be...and I defy anyone to make a just comparison why one is legal and not the other.

Keeping the kiddies off pot or drugs has nothing to do with the legality thereof. Although in the grand scheme of things, there’s way more I’d worry about a child of mine getting into before a little mind altering natural substance. Like religion, for instance.....

The majority of Americans *still* favor the New Deal.  Indeed, many Americans still remember the massive eldery-poor the pre-NewDeal era.

The reason why democracies have constitutions that limit the powers of government is to prevent the tyranny of the majority. The New Deal is unconstitutional. Either amend the Constitution, drop the issue, or at least be honest about no longer caring about the principles upon which this nation was founded.

The reason why elderly and others are better off now is not because of the New Deal, but because our society created massive amounts of wealth. From a recent article by Walter Williams:

The 20th century saw unprecedented material gains as well. Controlling for inflation, household assets rose from $6 trillion to $41 trillion between 1945 and 1998. Today, more than 98 percent of American homes have a telephone, electricity and a flush toilet. More than 70 percent of Americans own a car, a VCR, a microwave, air conditioning, cable TV, and a washer and dryer. ...

The productive people who made this progress possible are often painted as villains. I’m talking about the innovators and the risk-takers, in a word—entrepreneurs. Today’s heroes are often seen as the people who attack entrepreneurs—among them lawyers, politicians, media people, leftist organizations, college professors and others who often contribute little or nothing to human progress.

The socialism-lite of the New Deal turned a regular depression into the Great Depression. Socialism retards this ongoing process of creating wealth and jobs, and limits upwards mobility.

One of the biggest roles of government i favor is that of maintaining and fostering an increase of justice within society.  Forced Racial Integration of our schools, for example, was a fantastic, verging on holy act of government.

I think we can both agree that consensual behaviors that do not harm others form the basis of natural rights, and should be protected by the government. Or more properly, protected from the government. That is why I am ideologically opposed to both racial segregation and the New Deal.

This has gotten way too serious.

My choice to lead the Dems is Mr. T!

Think about it:

-He’s black (it’s about fucking time)
-He’s compassionate ("I pity") but also tells it like it is ("the fool")
-Who the hell is gonna accuse Mr. T of being a girly man or a flip flopper?  Mr. T could make your face explode just by looking at you.
-Ok, ok, he has no war record, but he played a soldier on TV, and that was enough for Reagan.  Besides, Bush the second doesn’t have a real war record either.
-I say it’s time for a comeback of massive gold chains.