How prayers to God are dividing a local community.

Posted by Les on Thursday, May 06, 2004 at 12:33 PM. Read 1278 times. Tags:
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This is a story that I’ve been following since it first started to develop a week or so ago and considering that today is the annual “National Day of Prayer” I thought it would be apropos to talk about it. It concerns a relatively well-known city in the Metro Detroit area called Hamtramck and how a changing population has led to a clash of religious cultures. Outside of Michigan Hamtramck is known for two particular traits: 1) it’s literally a city inside a city in the sense that it is surrounded on all sides by the city of Detroit (as is Highland Park) and 2) it’s traditionally a Polish enclave. Over the last ten years, however, there has been a ten fold increase in the city’s Asian population and these immigrants have brought their Muslim beliefs with them. For the most part the largely Catholic white citizens have managed to get along pretty well with the growing Muslim population in their midst, or at least they’ve managed to hide their resentment of the newcomers up until recently, but simmering tensions finally boiled over due to a request to the city council by the al-Islah Islamic Center for permission to broadcast the Islamic call to prayer over outdoor loudspeakers for about two minutes five times a day. Suddenly the resentment and bigotry came to the surface:

They can believe whatever they want to, but IӒm against them pushing their content into my head like brainwashing, said Joanne Golen, 68, a lifelong Hamtramck resident. ԓThere are seven mosques in the city, and Ill be in the middle of all of them.Ҕ ... Though the calls to worship are in Arabic, Golen said shes offended by words that praise Allah. ғHes not my true God,Ҕ Golen said. I canӒt stay locked in my house with cotton in my ears every time they do it. ... “It says Allah is the one and only God. I am Christian. My God is Jesus Christ. That is my only objection—that I have to listen to a God other than the one I believe in praised five times a day.”—Detroit News

Oh how terrible it is to be exposed to religious traditions outside of your own! Keep in mind that Hamtramck has many Christian churches several of which ring bells for various reasons throughout the day. The Muslims argue that the call to prayer is the same as the ringing of church bells and have agreed to conditions prohibiting them from broadcasting the call to prayer before 6AM or after 10PM. This isn’t without precedent in Michigan as Dearborn has a very large Muslim population and for the last 15 years the American Muslim Society’s mosque has broadcast daily prayers there, though it is true that most mosques in America keep their broadcasts indoors if the neighborhood isn’t largely Muslim. While the city council weighed the issue upset Christians didn’t sit idly by waiting to see what the decision would be. Petitions were circulated and lawsuits were threatened though most legal scholars don’t think there’s much that can be done about it. Technically the mosque didn’t even need to ask permission under the law as it stands, but they did so out of a sense of being a good neighbor. This is what they get for trying to be polite:

ԓIve made friends. I go to their weddings. (But) weҒre losing our tradition and Im getting mad,Ҕ Alice Dembowski said. If theyӒre going to live in America, why cant they be more American?Ҕ—Detroit News.

Jackie Rutherford, a librarian and youth-care worker, sat on her front stoop watching three men in Islamic shirt-dresses and tupi caps at the house across the street. “I don’t know what’s going to happen to our little town,” said Ms. Rutherford, 39.

“I used to say I wasn’t prejudiced against anyone, but then I realized I had a problem with them putting Allah above everyone else,” she said, of the plan to amplify the call to prayer, which mosques announce five times a day. “It’s throwing salt in a wound. I feel they’ve come to our country, infiltrated it, and they sit there looking at us, laughing, calling us fools.”—New York Times

A number of citizens have shown their ignorance of what their Constitutional rights are in this issue:

“My main objection is simple,” she said. “I don’t want to be told that Allah is the true and only God five times a day, 365 days a year. It’s against my constitutional rights to have to listen to another religion evangelize in my ear.”—Joanne Golen

“Everyone talks about their rights. The rights of Christians have been stripped from them. Last week there were Muslims praying downstairs, in a public building. If Christians tried to do that, the A.C.L.U. would shut us down.”—Chuck Schultz
Call to Prayer in Michigan Causes Tension - New York Times

“Where are my rights? Where are the rights of all the people who have lived in this community all of their lives? I do not have a choice as to whether I hear this or not.”—Mary Urbanski Hamtramck prayer OK prompts outrage

There’s nothing in the Constitution that says you never have to listen to another religion evangelize to you (which the call to prayer doesn’t do anyway). If there was I would have invoked it against all the idiots who keep trying to convert me to Christianity a long time ago. Nor would the ACLU shut your Christian group down simply for making use of a public building as long as it wasn’t as a result of government support. And, no, you don’t have a choice as to whether you hear the call to prayer or not. Just like the Muslims don’t have a choice on hearing the Christian church bells chime on the hour, every hour, every day. You people need to get a friggin’ clue.

On Tuesday the Hamtramck city council unanimously approved the amendment to the noise ordinance giving an official blessing, if you’ll pardon the pun, for the broadcasts to begin next week. Needless to say the Catholic opponents are outraged and have vowed that this isn’t the end of the issue.

The Hamtramck City Council’s unanimous approval Tuesday night of a plan to allow the Muslim call to prayer to be broadcast on loudspeakers five times a day in Arabic has outraged many of the city’s Polish Catholic residents.

They said they’ll start a petition drive to bring the issue to a vote. Others have said they’ll file lawsuits in federal court. Some plan to move.

“I’d hate to see it go this route, but unfortunately, it’s going to go this route,” said resident Robert Zwolak.—

I must say, though, that the award for most undisguised bigotry combined with being totally clueless has to go to this woman:

Maria Radtke, a Polish immigrant who fled a Europe devastated by World War II, said Tuesday that it irks her that Muslims don’t seem to be trying to fit into American culture the way she did when she first came to the United States.

“When you come to this country . . . adjust to the customs and beliefs of this country. I respect their religion. I respect their faith. But you cannot wear this on your sleeve.

“Fifty-two years ago when I came to this country, every nationality lived in their own community, and really, it was peaceful. And now politicians made a melting pot where you can live anywhere you want. That made a disaster.”—Detroit Free Press

Can you believe that? In this day and age someone is actually complaining that in America you have the freedom to live anywhere you want. Damn those politicians and their promotion of diversity! Now she has to be exposed to cultures and beliefs that are different from her own! In the minds of these people this is the same as being told their beliefs are wrong and they seriously think they have some Constitutional right not to be told they are wrong. All the Muslims want is to be treated fairly and to enjoy the same privilege already granted to their Christian neighbors. Not every Christian in Hamtramck is opposed to this and many agree with their Muslim counterparts, but the amount of opposition is still impressive.

On this “National Day of Prayer” we’ll be told repeatedly that prayer is always a good thing and should be engaged in daily. That people of all faiths should come together and pray for the blessings from whatever concept of God(s) they may have to be bestowed upon our country, our communities and our families. We will hear of countless stories where the power of prayer has righted some wrong or cured some incurable disease or turned someone’s life around and we’ll be encouraged to make daily prayer a habit because it’s always a good thing. Yet here in Michigan we have a perfect example of just how a daily prayer can cause as much harm as good and can bring hidden prejudices and fears to the surface. It reveals just how poorly many Americans understand what their rights are and just how selfish they can be in allowing others to enjoy the same freedoms and privileges they claim for themselves. Not to mention how little they understand the teachings of their own religion.

Comments:

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*** Dave United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 02:00 PM

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(Shakes head sadly.)

The only small bit I’ll grant the Christian community there is that I suspect most (or at least many) folks who hear church bells don’t think of them as an expicitly religious message, as opposed to a direct call to prayer.

It’s interesting, though, and perhaps more of a local issue than a national one.  I’ve never lived in (in California and Colorado) a community where church bells were anything but a rare, singular exception—a carrilon concert at lunch, perhaps, but not a regular Sunday come-to-prayer, or an hourly chime, or anything like that.  When our church here was built, it was made explicitly clear that the neighbors did not want any sort of bells ringing at any time for any occasion.  With that sort of precedent, it’s likely that Muslim call to prayer would face similar, nonsectarian opposition.

That all said, way too many of the folks quoted are narrow-minded and clueless.  And I fear the harm they will do to their community will be far greater than the annoyance of calls to prayer will.

GeekMom United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 02:34 PM

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What’s scary is that it IS actually the same god:  the God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses.  It’s sectarianism poisoned by pure and simple racism.

valhalla United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 03:55 PM

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I don’t view this as a religious issue, but as a noise pollution issue (regular playing of church bells is the same thing). Even if they wanted to play the Mickey Mouse Club song five times a day, I would be opposed to it on the same grounds. The troulble with the residents there is they aren’t arguing on that grounds because that would include their church bells.

june United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 03:58 PM

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Total word on what GeekMom said. Uh, people? IT’S THE SAME GOD YOU IDIOTS. Great googly moogly.

Etan United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 04:07 PM

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Firstly: Bravo on the writing.

Secondly: I agree with ***Dave, in that I think of church bells as something to signify time, more than a secular prayer.

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“An eye for an eye leaves us all blind.” - Gandhi

neodromos United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 04:23 PM

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You know, I don’t even think this is an issue of a noise ordinance. Honestly, I live less than a quater mile from the flightline of Dyess Air Force Base and I have to put up with the sound of afterburners that are so loud and so powerful that the base has blast shields opposite the flightline to protect buildings on base from debris and noise and I don’t bitch about it so what’s the harm in having a call to prayer five times a day? And as for the woman bitching about having another religion evangelize to her, well, what about this? If I ever go to the fair,library, school, bank, mall, supermarket, or even a damn taco bell, there’s always someone handing out religious leaflets and telling me I’m gonna burn in hell, and I even have to put up with the assholes who wake me up at 6:30 in the goddamn morning to tell me to change my evil ways and I STILL don’t bitch about it. Granted, I’m an extraordinarily patient man, but is it really to much to ask of these people to shut the fuck up for once? Really, these bigots make me sick.

Vicki United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 05:03 PM

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There are a couple of related articles on the Christian Coalition website. They have an article about Jim Marquis, who is a pastor of the New Covenant Worship Center in Wellston, Ohio. He is trying to help the Christians in Hamtramck explain how the Muslim broadcast will affect the Community.

He said, “Five times a day for up to five minutes at a time, you’re going to have to hear this prayer recited to Allah in whom we do not believe as Christians. We do not feel that they have the right to broadcast through an amplification system that prayer that we are forced to listen to, and we have no recourse or redress.” He goes on to say, “It’s disgusting and it’s just absolutely intrusive upon everyone’s rights that this takes place”.

The CC’s other article talks about the National Day of Prayer-how it’s endorsed by Bush-and how the entire Bible is read over loudspeakers over several days.
“Since Monday, God’s Word has been read over an amplified sound system that covers a large portion of the National Mall. The last verse of Revelation will echo through the Mall sometime Thursday afternoon.”

Can you say “double standard”??

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 06:30 PM

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Muslim noise pollution, Christian noise pollution, it’s all someone else’s content intruding into my yard. I can shut off the TV, not read the phamplets, kick out the door-to-door Mormons, but what right does anyone have to amplify their content into my freakin’ yard!?

And jet afterburners are not the same thing.  With jets the noise is a byproduct of the activity, not an attempt to communicate anything. 

From a noise-pollution angle, the amplified human voice is worse than bells esthetically.  But as a matter of civil liberties, the bell-ringers have no business trying to stifle the prayer-callers.  They should keep their religion out of my yard.  I don’t stand up in their church services and say bad things about their invisible man in the sky.

Bells can carry content.  On beautiful Sunday mornings, I go out, turn on “CarTalk” at a reasonable* volume as I work on my old Bug in the backyard, a happy man.  And then… the damn church bells start in with their obnoxious catchy 19th century revival hymns.  As a former minister (and former Christian) I know the words to all those hymns and they bug the hell out of me.  But everyone would think I’m a terrible person if I said anything - that’s a fact!

*(reasonable volume = barely audible at the street, inaudible at my neighbor’s back door.)

Let ‘em get Palm Pilots if they can’t remember when to pray.  And Vicki, you’re totally right about that “double standard.” There must be a lot of non-Christians on the mall during that time.

You suppose I could get a permit to broadcast 5-minute homilies about my favorite scientists 5 tims a day?

GeekMom United States Posted on 05/06/2004 at 08:10 PM

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Those idjits who are complaining about hearing a call to prayer five times a day should be reminded of the CHRISTMAS CAROLS that are broadcast in just about every public place 24/7 for three months in the winter ...

Pop Tarts Singapore Posted on 05/07/2004 at 07:04 AM

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I have heard those call to prayers before and unless the ones that are being talked about over here are louder than the ones I have heard in muslim countries, it is quite ok. You will more likely be more irritated by sounds of a car or a truck driving past your house or that dog barking rather than those call to prayers, or at least I am.

Not too sure if it is in the article but if I am not wrong unless the people in those Mosque are trying something radically different, the call to prayer is NOT in English. In fact most of the people who attend the Mosque (unless they are from the Middle East) may not even understand it since if I am not wrong it is in Arabic.

Rachelle United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 02:44 PM

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I have to listen to that arabic blather piped into my world five times a day so you can pass the liberal crack pipe?  If they try to pull that crap in my neighborhood, I’ll get a chainsaw and night-vision goggles for the nightly “repair” of the sound system.

When will you knuckleheads get the hint that Islam is a cult and not a true religion?  Just because it survived the centuries amongst the desert goat-herders doesn’t make its rhetoric of hate any more valid.  Nor is their Allah the same as the Christian God.  It says in the Koran: “Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son.”

Yes, there a millions of kind, loving people who consider themselves Islamic, but they are there because their family are all Islamic as well, and they do not follow the Koran’s teachings properly, such as:
Jews are “apes and swine to be despised and rejected.”
The Koran commands Mus­lims to fight non-Muslims until they exterminate all other religions, leaving Islam as the one and only religion in the world
“Take not Jews and Christians for friends . . . He among you who takes them for friends is one of them . . . Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians] . .  But keep your duty to Allah...[For those who do not submit to Allah] their punishment is ...execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides...”

Rather than mis-guided tolerance, we need a system of de-programming and counseling, much like you would do for an alchoholic or sex offender.

Yeah, they seem all cute and cuddly when they are the minority, but once they get going, you’ll be sorry.

neodromos United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 03:22 PM

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rachel


I particularly love the way you use the term cult for muslims and no one else. Especially considering that the textbook definition of “cult” is any group who gathers for worship, so forgive me if I seem a bit harsh but you’re a fucking moron. You sit there and spread this anti-muslim propaganda and what’s worse is that you actually believe this shit. Well, you know what? Eat it bitch. I’m fairly certain after having this same bullshit shoved down their throats since they were born most people here probably don’t want to hear it from you either. Your voice is not unique, but just another bit of mindless whining. So, in the future, if you’d like to post, try to put some actual “thought” into what you say. If you do, you might even gain my respect, but I doubt that’s coming sometime soon.

nunyabiz United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 04:12 PM

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ALL religions are cults, they are ALL nothing but utter bullshit, there is not 1 single shred of evidence that supports ANY religion as being factual.

All religious individuals are suffering from a Mind Virus.

Meanwhile Atheist just sit back crack a beer and watch the lunacy.

http://www.christianitymeme.org/

GeekMom United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 04:14 PM

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When will you knuckleheads get the hint that Christianity is a cult and not a true religion? Just because it survived the centuries amongst the desert goat-herders doesn’t make its rhetoric of hate any more valid.

Yes, there a millions of kind, loving people who consider themselves Christian, but they are there because their family are all Christian as well, and they do not follow the Bible’s teachings properly, such as:

Deuteronomy 13:6
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Rather than mis-guided tolerance, we need a system of de-programming and counseling, much like you would do for an alchoholic or sex offender.

Yeah, they seem all cute and cuddly when they are the minority, but once they get going, you’ll always be sorry.

Pop Tarts Singapore Posted on 05/07/2004 at 05:16 PM

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Is not a religion merely a cult that have ‘made it.’ A religion is something like an Multi National Corporation (MNC). It is still a company just that it is so much larger.

nowiser United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 06:14 PM

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I’ve got a full on robot chubby for GM.

decrepitoldfool United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 06:54 PM

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In fact, that “misguided tolerance” is the ONLY thing in the long run that will keep us from killing each other.  There are very few religions that have not shown a propensity for violence under the right conditions, i.e., when they get the upper hand.

Under a constitutionally-mandated tolerance, everyone has to give the other guy a bit of space whether they like it or not.  Even if he’s wierd, even if we don’t like him, he lives here and he gets his say.  That’s the law and we all live under it, Rachelle.

In other words, NO ONE gets the upper hand, that is - an “establishment of religion.” Not the Christians, not the Muslims, not the Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc.

The most hopeful thing I have heard anyone say about the human race recently is the Dalai Lama, who said:

“I believe it is very useful or important to have a nonreligious way of approaching a nonbeliever in order to give him peace of mind.  And in a way to give it to the community and to humanity as a whole.  In any case, the majority of the world’s population of six billion people has little interest or seriousness when it comes to religion… These are secular ethics, not a religious message, and they are for everyone.... Human values are essential.  We must find a way to present basic human values to everyone - and present them not as religious matters but as secular ethics that are essential whether you are religious or not.”

There’s your liberal crack-pipe.  Sounds better than the next crusade, inquisition, ethnic cleansing, pogram, etc. which ALWAYS gets started when someone says “They’re getting too numerous!!!”

Vicki United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 07:25 PM

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Rachelle-

Speaking of rhetoric of hate: How about the KKK and Hitler? What is/was their religious reason for their actions? Oops - I believe that was CHRISTIANITY??!!

Good one, GM

Les United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 08:11 PM

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Thank you, GeekMom, for writing the very reply I would have written. You’ve been hanging out here too much, starting to sound just like me. grin

My initial thought is that Rachelle is just another troll, but I do know of people out there that hold a similar viewpoint and that worries me. From where I’m standing all religions could be considered cults, some are just more popular than others.

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All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
All I know is my steak tastes better when I take my steak tastes better pill
-- I Feel Fantastic, Jonathan Coulton

GeekMom United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 09:36 PM

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nowiser, how in the HELL did you know that I was introducing my daughter to Bill and Ted just yesterday??

“You sunk my battleship.”

Christine United States Posted on 05/07/2004 at 11:58 PM

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Les, thanks for that posting, great job! 

I wished I could hear the prayer calls again.  It’s been over 20 years, and to me it wasn’t a prayer call, since I didn’t understand it.  It reminded me where I was, it was exciting, excotic and beautiful. 

And it was a lot more soothing than the church bells I accross the street where I grew up, the street car bells in front of my apartment later and then those airplanes going over my house in Daly City, Cal. Especially on Sundays.

Now I’m in the middle of the desert and I hate the traffic, sometimes 5 or more cars an hour.  And there’s nothing more annoying than those moronic weekenders on their idiotic 4-wheelers.  Did I move to the desert so I can listen to their noise?

And how do my neighbors enjoy hearing my new drum?

I can see where people consider a prayer call noise pollution where there is no other noise. 

As a western woman, I don’t think I’ll be able to go to the Middle East again, and I’ll never get to see Afghanistan.  Some things you just have to do while you can.

Anyway, it’s too bad so many Americans are so afraid of anything different, so insecure.

Crankydragon United States Posted on 05/08/2004 at 03:03 PM

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Wow. Intelligent commenters. Ok, except for the blathering idiot, but she was good for a laugh when she was getting intelligently shot down. I can’t believe I’ve never read your blog before. *note to self: add to aggregator*

Brooks United States Posted on 05/09/2004 at 08:11 PM

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Welcome Crankydragon. There’s a lot more where this came from. You should spend a few weeks reading the archives.

refro United States Posted on 05/13/2004 at 12:23 AM

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Oh no! I’m such a weak minded fool, those calls to worship are sure to turn me to Islam. They must be stopped! Help me Christian Coalition! You guys would never try to brainwash me.

Les United States Posted on 05/13/2004 at 05:52 AM

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I love a good big of sarcasm. grin

 Signature 

All I know is the wine lasts longer when you don’t gotta share it with someone
All I know is my steak tastes better when I take my steak tastes better pill
-- I Feel Fantastic, Jonathan Coulton

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