Brock:

I’m saddened to see your fashion sense has been corrupted by the degenerates here.  I should have expected this.  If one hangs around the barber shop long enough, sooner or later, she’ll end up getting a haircut. 

idm:

Grave men, near death, can’t see the blinding sight,
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage, against the blinding of the sight. 

Stand strong, stand strong.  Lest, the final wall of good taste crumble here.

I was too late.

MoP: But I’ve been pushed to the edge of liberal guilt.  That’s all I can stands, I can’t stands no more (so to speak).

Yep, heard that.  I can’t say “sucks” because it denigrates the noble individuals who practice oral sex (and trust me, I mean that without any hint of sarcasm ) Can’t say “lame” because it would diss people with physical disabilities (never mind John Callahan getting booted from major newspapers for making fun of crippled people).  and so on.

It’s ‘keyword sensitivity’ which is quite distinct from (and no substitute for) real sensitivity to differences among people.

When I say ‘That’s gay’ I mean ‘That’s lame’ not as a derogatory comment about homosexuals, but just as a general statement.

You said it yourself, you equate the word ‘gay’ with the word ‘lame’. 

I have a thick skin and don’t have a problem with somebody calling me queer, or fag, or asshole, or whatever.  I find it very offensive when people use the word ‘gay’ when they mean ‘lame’.  Substitute the word ‘Mexican’ or ‘Asian’ for the word ‘gay’ when you mean lame and see how that sounds. 

The word ‘fuck wad’ is a much more appropriate term than the word ‘fashist’ [sic] to describe somebody who uses the word ‘gay’ to mean ‘lame’.

No sweat. Anything for you, Brock. Ya knows I loves ya.

I can’t say “sucks” because it denigrates the noble individuals who practice oral sex

I have never heard of the word “sucks” being considered denigrating because it was in general use long before it had a sexual meaning.  If you really want to be PC, you could say that something “sucks in a bad way”, but it isn’t necessary. 

Just don’t use the word ‘gay’ when you mean ‘lame’.  The word ‘gay’, to mean homosexual, has been used since the 1920’s, which is much longer than the practice of using the word ‘gay’ to mean ‘lame’, which was first used in the 1980’s, as a pejorative.  It is also fine to use the word ‘gay’ to mean ‘happy’ or ‘carefree’ as that definition has been used since about the 1300’s.

The word ‘fuck wad’ is a much more appropriate term than the word ‘fashist’ [sic] to describe somebody who uses the word ‘gay’ to mean ‘lame’.

Right.  And that is why I hesitated to mention the whole situation in the first place.  Thanks for calling me a fuckwad, though.  I clearly deserve it.  I mean, using an expression that’s common usage among young people that could be considered pejoritive?  What an asshole.  I suppose I should apologize to the mentally handicapped in advance.  I also say that things are retarded.

MOP:

Rather than get bent out of shape by what strangers may or may not think about your right to self-expression, slow down.  Take a deep breath.

Understand that the world is filled with all kinds of people with all kinds of issues.  Some are more sensitive to others and get their hackles up about nearly any language choice.  Almost always, these are liberals.  Some think that political correctness in speech is abhorrent.  Generally, these are conservatives and libertarians.  Now would be a good opportunity to decide which side of the fence you want to be on.

Thank you DOF. XD

When I say ‘That’s gay’ I mean ‘That’s lame’ not as a derogatory comment about homosexuals, but just as a general statement.

As others have said, even if you don’t mean it that way, it is derogatory.  And ‘pushed to the edge of liberal guilt’???  At 20?  Cool.  I wish I was that progressive at that age.

I have mixed feelings on the issue.  On the one hand, I think there shouldn’t be limitations on speech.  On the other hand I see no sense in using the word gay when I mean lame.

Therefore I tend to use the word lame if I think something is lame.  Not necessarily cause I am worried the Liberal police will hunt me down, but I see no sense in using the word gay when I am trying to get the message across that the “thing” is lame.

I mean, using an expression that’s common usage among young people that could be considered pejoritive?
...
I suppose I should apologize to the mentally handicapped in advance.  I also say that things are retarded.

Some words do morph from being pejorative to being non-pejorative, but the use of the word ‘gay’ to mean ‘lame’ is not one of them.  ‘Retarded’ to mean stupid is also still a pejorative.

How old are you? I don’t believe that I have ever heard anybody over the age of about 16 use the word ‘retarded’ as a pejorative.

I don’t believe that I have ever heard anybody over the age of about 16 use the word ‘retarded’ as a pejorative.

Really? I hear it all the time, IDM - and most of my friends are in their mid 20s to early 30s.

Generally, these are conservatives and libertarians.

I agree with Webs in the sense that I’m not strong on the use of the “keywords to avoid” method of political correctness, and I agree that if you’ve got a specific statement to make, you should make it as clearly as possible. For me, I want to say what it takes to make a point. Some of those words come more easily than others. I am, however, making the effort to steer away from those words that might be perceived as pejorative, even if I don’t feel that they are, simply because I need to communicate and I don’t feel like taking flak from people who are strung out.

The road goes both ways. My culture says “retard” and “gay” are fine. Same with “jewed” (which essentially means the same as getting “ripped off”, only with a domain of both material and immaterial things). Where I come from, this is absolutely 100% in the clear because they are not made as remarks against homosexuals (that’s homo or fag) or disabled people (gibbled), or against Jewish religion or it’s followers (*expletive* Jew). There’s no one way to say what culture’s norms should be respected more, except when you’re aware you’re immersed in that culture ("When in Rome...").

When I first joined up with LiveJournal, someone called a policy decision made by the LJ team in 2004 “retarded”. That prompted a big argument and I put my own two cents in. My bottom line is that individuals have some control over how they feel about things. I’m brain damaged - but I go out of my way to understand the context rather than get worked up about it if someone offends me with a remark that I relate to my disabilities (which, after years of doing that, it’s very hard to offend me and very easy to have a frank discussion on the matter, which is more productive for everyone involved). There’s little to stop anyone else from doing the same. Sure, I might be offended at first; but past the knee-jerk reaction it’s a lot easier to get used to it, rather than getting my boxers in a knot every time. It’s a wonder that people feel it’s better to do the latter.

MoP, as far as the guy’s reaction goes, it sounds like he needed to blow off some steam, too. I know a few gay people and a whole lot of bi people, and I’ve only met one that sees use of the word “gay” as demeaning to gay people. Speaking of that “one”, all he said was “please don’t use that word around me”. He didn’t proceed into a long polemic. You sure he wasn’t like… emo?

Oddly enough I’ve been around a couple of gay people who have used the word gay in the same manner that MoP used it, which surprised me to say the least. I’m sure if you search through my archives long enough you’ll come across at least one or two examples of my using it in an attempt at the “I’m still hep for an old man” humor. At least one of my close friends will occasionally use it in a joking manner and I’m pretty sure he’s not a homophobic.

Personally I’m of much the same mind as Patness in that you have to work really hard to offend me. If it’s apparent you’re trying to offend me then I just won’t give you the satisfaction and if it’s apparent you’re not intending to offend me then I have no reason to be offended. Given the title of my blog it should be pretty clear that I don’t tend to worry too much about keeping my speech politically correct.

In summary, I have no control over your speech, but I do have control over how I react to it. Words have only as much power over you as you allow them to have.

Patness; The use of ‘retarded’ may be a regional thing. 

I am not easily offended and I don’t give a shit when people call me names.  I think that the only word that personally offends me is when people use ‘gay’ to mean lame.

When I hear somebody using the word ‘gay’ to mean lame, I don’t say anything unless it is somebody I know and then I just tell them that it is offensive to me. 

My speach is not necessarily politically correct and it can get pretty coarse.  I simply feel that it is common courtesy to not say things that I know are offensive or hurtful to others.  It is not something new for me, I learned to do it long ago.

Mixed feelings, here. I don’t think I’ve ever used the word “gay” in that context, but I have used other words that other groups could find equally offensive. I never use them casually, though. If I’m using inflammatory language, I am doing so deliberately, I intend to inflame.

The only time I find myself offended is when such words are used casually. I work with a guy who used to use the term “nigger-rigging” when he talked about doing a half assed job of fixing something. I cured him of that, eventually. The thing was, he’s not a bad guy, nor a racist guy. He just heard the term used casually all his life, so he used it.

More people should think about the words they use, before they use them.

South Africa legalized same-sex marriage.  Gay couples can now get married in South Africa using the same laws as straight couples.  It is interesting that straight and gays couples can now choose to either call it a marriage or a civil union.

The new law allows the “voluntary union of two persons, which is solemnized and registered by either a marriage or civil union”.

KPG; I also had to stop myself from using the term “nigger-rigging”.  I grew up hearing it and using it.

It’s strange to see that South Africa is now more progressive than the US.  Well, good for them, but sucks for US-ites.

Well technically, we’re all fuckwads.  Or at least started out that way.

I feel the listener has a responsibility to attempt to derive from context and personality the speaker’s meaning, and thereby not to take offense when none is intended.  There are plenty of intrinsically offensive things in the world without looking for offense in the range of normal human expression.

For example, I am much more likely to take offense at discrimination than prejudice.  You don’t have to like me, but when I try to rent an apartment or take out a loan, you shouldn’t let that change the outcome.

I don’t particularly care for the use of “gay” to mean “uncool/lame”, but I’m not gonna attack someone as a homophobe for saying it, because that’s not necessarily the case.

I can accept that these days the word is commonly used a general pejoritive, without any real reference to sexual orientation. However, it should at least be acknowledged that this is a recent development. MOP saying circa 2000 that a bus schedule is “so gay” (which couldn’t be construed as meaning anything other than ‘not cool’ ) IS different from, say, a metal fan circa 1985 calling Poison “so gay” (meaning ‘not cool because insufficiently masculine’ ), but the latter is the context from which the more benign recent usage has sprung. And plenty of people these days who say something is ‘gay’ still intend the word as a pejoritive with an intentional and overt reference to sexual orientation, even if it doesn’t make much sense contextually.

So, MOP, my two cents are the kid was probably out of line for getting in your face. In my mind, using the word as a pejoritive certainly doesn’t make you a homophobe (really, using any word can’t make you anything, I think). Still, if you keep using it that way, you shouldn’t be too shocked that some people will be offended, and you should be aware that it will make some people extremely uncomfortable even if they don’t say anything about it.

Ulfrekr: I’m fairly certain that “X3” refers to the third X-Men movie, which involves the discovery of a “cure”

Thanks, mate. 

Whew.  I didn’t anticipate it this time either.

Consigliere, I’m neither a conservative or a libertarian.  I’m not anything.  I was a card carrying member of the NDP at one point, but have since become more moderate.  I agree with gay marriage, so that makes me a liberal.  I disagree with the national gun registry, which makes me a conservative.  The more I learn (I’m doing a degree in political studies), the more I think that it’s not advisable to follow any one party line.  I take things issue by issue (although I’m more left leaning).

Going back to the whole ‘That’s gay’ thing… I don’t go out of my way to offend people or be hateful.  But sometimes people get offended by my choice of language.  I swear fairly frequently.  Case in point: In french, many of the swear words are just church words.  Sometimes catholics will get offended at my use of them (especially my fundamentalist high school teacher, man what an asshole he was).  I’m still going to keep saying them.  Maybe one day I’ll outgrow the expression.  Until then, I hope people can put my words in context.  If they cant, then to quote my grandad: “Fuck ‘em if they can’t take a joke”.

It’s interesting that we’re discussing this in my Queer Studies class right now.

But what still gets me is, why in the world is this still a question? In almost every other sphere of human experience, people have acknowledged both the genetic aspects and the cultural/social aspects as factors in “who we are.” So why is it so difficult for people to see the choice question as something other than black and white? Isn’t it possible that just maybe, both genetics and/or brain wiring or levels of androgen in utero, as well as family structure, society, cultural/religious background, and of course the media “cause” people to be gay?

The mere fact that we assume one or the other--choice or genetic--denotes the kind of heterosexist society we live in. The legitamacy of homosexuality is based on our beliefs as to whether it’s a choice or not. If people say that homosexuality is genetic, with no choice involved, there’s the assumption that people with a choice could then “change.” And within that is the assumption that it is desirable that homosexuals “change” and become heterosexual (consider the gay reform camps). On the flipside, if people say that homosexuality is a choice, homosexual behaviors then become “their fault,” “their responsibility.” People are choosing to become/stay homosexual--which in our heterosexist society is inconcievable. Which then opens the doors for attack. If homosexuality is a choice, it immediately becomes illegitamate, and if people are “choosing” to deviate from “nature’s way,” then why give them rights?

So what it boils down to is politics. On the individual level, as well as the scientific level, it really shouldn’t matter what causes homosexuality. To use the word “cause” also assumes that homosexuality is deviant from the norm--"What causes people to be homosexual rather than heterosexual?” Within which, of course, is the assumption that heterosexuality is normal. No one asks “What causes heterosexuality?”

As for the twin studies, there are indeed a lot of holes in them. What the study boils down to is that there is an increased likelihood that those sharing the same DNA would both be gay, which suggests a genetic component in homosexuality. “Increased likelihood” being the operative terms--consider that more than half the identical twins, one of whom was gay, also had a gay twin, but not all. It should be obvious, therefore, that genetics seem to play a role in determining sexuality, but certainly don’t predict sexuality.

It should then be obvious that both genes and the environment play equal roles in “causing homosexuality,” but everyone seems to simply ignore that. Cognitive dissonance at work.

My two teenaged kids use the term “gay” to mean lame, and this automatically garuantees that there is no way in hell I ever will.
Would never let them think I was attempting to be on their level. i.e. “buddies”