Brock: Sorry, DOF. I didn’t think this was really a private thread.

Neither did I, but since the more general topic has been (and will continue to be) discussed at length elsewhere, I propose we try to keep this thread a little closer to the topic than is usual. To that end I submitted a parallel thread for related observations.  I don’t think Les has approved it yet or perhaps I goofed it up somehow.

decrepitoldfool: Let’s stand back and let Consi and Shelly discuss the twin studies.

Well can we at least wait until Shelly gets here?...alright alright, I’ll go to your thread.

Consi didn’t make me feel welcomed here anyway.

ANOTHER open thread on homosexuality?
Ok, here we go again.....

Homos should not be allowed to marry.
Gayness is a genetic defect.

Hitler is god…
Blah, blah, blah....

My “theory” regarding homosexuality, in two parts:

Part One:

Sexual preference follows a spectrum, rather than a sharp gay/straight dichotomy. Most people are at the “straight” end of the spectrum, fewer are at the “gay” end. But in between is a smooth continuum.

In other words, there are 90/10 men (attracted to women 90 percent, attracted to men 10 percent), 10/90 men (attracted to women 10 percent, attracted to men 90 percent), as well as 60/40, 20/80, 35/65, and everything in between. There are also, obviously, 100/0 and 0/100 men. Ditto for women.

The concept that any male who’s ever had sex with another man is automatically to be considered “gay” is superficial and misleading, in my opinion (reminding me of a supposed racial rule I once came across in America’s Deep South – that if you were one-sixteenth black, you were automatically a full “Negro”). There are “straight” men (call them 90/10s) with wives and children who have had one or more encounters with other men.

I can easily agree that this continuum is very heavily weighted toward the “straight” end of the spectrum.

(Part of what leads me to believe all this: I know a “gay” man who says a number of his sex partners have been “straight” men, and another who says that all but one of his partners were “straight.” In the same vein, a notorious womanizer friend of mine has told me he’s also had a number of encounters with “gay” men. A quote: “Your dick doesn’t care whose mouth is down there.”)

Part Two:

There is more than one cause for arriving at sexual preference. I’d predict that when we finally know, there will be at least four causes, and perhaps more, with the possibility of overlap and cross-influence.

I can imagine FIVE possible causes. They are:

1. Something genetic.

2. Something hormonal during pregnancy. For instance, apparently boys born at the end of a string of male births are slightly more likely to be “gay.” I think I remember reading the speculation that the mother’s immune system may react to the successive waves of testosterone, eventually suppressing the third or fourth son’s testosterone production, thus slightly feminizing him before birth.

3. Early sexual experience. Since orgasm is tremendously reinforcing, a male whose first sexual encounter is with another male may simply be reinforced in that direction initially, and follow the reinforcement to become full-fledged “gay” – perhaps never even trying sex with a woman because he’s satisfied with things (the specific partner, for instance) as they are. This experience could be early molestation by a much older male, or simple experimentation with someone of one’s own age.

4. What amounts to imprinting. I’m supposing a possible “window” period in human brain development during which we’re at least a bit susceptible to specific sexual influences. Puberty itself might be the “window,” but it might also come much earlier. It’s a mystery to me how people become sexually turned on by silk, or shoes, or the speaking of French, or black leather, but if there WAS such an imprinting window, I could imagine it as a solution: An experience during the “window” could seed a slight predilection which would become more firmly established as years of experience reinforced it – eventually resulting in a full-fledged leather fetishist, etc. Or someone with an overt “gay” orientation.

5. Simple fear of women. The kid has a harpy mother who scares the hell out of him, or an aunt who once frightened him badly (if the kid’s extremely sensitive, this could be so minor as to be undetectable to the rest of us) or an older sister who mistreats him for years, and he simply becomes incapable of intimacy with females. Possessing the strong sex drive we all have, yet being unable to trust women, he turns to male partners. Reinforcement over time does the rest.

(Just a side note: Some of these causes might allow “recovery,” under certain circumstances – so that a man “gay” in behavior might be able to become “straight” in behavior – but others might not.)

...

A side note: There’s a “top-bottom” axis (of sexual submissiveness and aggressiveness) that juts off from this gay-straight continuum line. I haven’t really considered it, but there might be a lot more complexity brought into the thing by this factor. For instance, I can imagine a submissive man might end up in a “gay” relationship or experience simply by allowing a more aggressive partner to take the lead.

...

Finally: This is all speculative. It rings fairly true to me (The part that rings truest is the idea that there is no single sharp line separating “gay” from “straight” – and the thought that endless discussion of the oversimplified “gay-straight” model is just plain stupid.) ...

... but I could be dead wrong about the lot of it.

ANOTHER open thread on homosexuality?

Eat it, motherfucker!

Homos should not be allowed to marry.
Gayness is a genetic defect.

Just so I know, how do you justify your particular affliction?

See, told you I’d come, DOF.

Here we go again indeed:

Homos should be allowed to marry.  They should also be allowed to wear Hawaiian shirts.
Gayness is genetic and environmental.  It is “defective” in the same sense that the Pope and adoptive parents are “defective” for not passing on their genes.

Hitler painted some pretty kitschy landscapes.  But then again, so did God (Corfu comes to mind), so maybe Hitler is God.

Eat it, motherfucker!

Thank you, I do eat pussy quite often.

Just so I know, how do you justify your particular affliction?

What would that be? Knowing the real truth? Having the balls to speak what’s REALLY on my mind?

DOF:

Thank you.  I was stunned to see 32 comments to an introduction.  I trust you are more than capable of surfing thread drift.

Hank, you left out an obvious sixth possible reason for homosexuality:  the Fall.  Adam was obviously not gay (there’s a nice picture of him here).  And is God gay?  No way, not the way He relished ordering the Israelites to rape and pillage.

That means that Eve afflicted us with gayness by biting that apple.  The exact etiology of gayness- whether the cherubim guarding Paradise injected gay cooties with their flaming swords, or whether God mucked about with Adam’s genes while He was making Eve’s hips narrow enough to ensure difficult childbirth, or whether Satan created Judy Garland, may never be completely unraveled.

Freedom for all, or freedom for none!

If straight people can be recognized as married by the law, gay people should have the same right.

I’m for abolishing “legal” marriage completely. If you want to commit the rest of your life to someone, that’s fine, but I’m the government and I really don’t care what you do relationshipwise.

Gayness is probably partly genetic, partly environmental. And that doesn’t matter at all. Unless you’re planning on finding a “cure.” But I wouldn’t recommend that, not after what happened in X3.

-Bob

Brock: Eat it, motherfucker!

It works out the most healthy thing you could put in your mouth is Mark Foley’s penis.
This is one of Bill’s best, don’t you think? 

Molly: Knowing the real truth?

When I hear someone say that I know that it translates to: I read or found out about some shit and it sounded like the truth to my limited intellect so I stopped looking for the truth.
Very Xian and Muslim and what ever else takes your fancy.
Please don’t think your truth is breaking new ground as a truth like, civil rights for all adults did; it doesn’t/won’t.
This is the same elitist thinking that other demagogues come up with to justify their warped existence.

Molly: Having the balls to speak what’s REALLY on my mind?

Ha-ha. It doesn’t take balls, mate - being a psychopath is enough to allow you to speak what’s REALLY on your mind too - just like suicide bombers - they don’t give a fuck about anyone either.
Little people shit me. 

Don: not after what happened in X3.

I know that X3 is probably an in joke but the only thing I know about X3 is that my mate’s wife has a 3.00 V6 BMW one.

Because I’m a really nice bloke I’m gonna give you two tips.

To quote in a blue box you hi-lite the text you wanna quote, go down to the white comment box, click in it, then click the quote button. If it doesn’t appear right click and paste between the 2 *quote* signs.

To quote from another web page as I did with the X3 quote, you right click on, and copy, the address of the web page you want us to see, go back to the white comment box, hi-lite your reference word/s, click the < a > symbol and a box will appear - right click and paste, click ok and then click ok again and VOILA!!
I could even teach dad to do that. 

Zilch: Homos should be allowed to marry.  They should also be allowed to wear Hawaiian shirts.

I’ve come a long way from my Hawaiian shirt hating days. I’m more open-minded now and feel anyone who is gay should let the world know for certain by wearing one.

LuckyJohn: It works out the most healthy thing you could put in your mouth is Mark Foley’s penis.

Can I just say that it still grosses me out to read “Mark Foley” and “penis” in the same sentence. And I bet he usually cleans other guys penises for them.

Brock: See, told you I’d come, DOF.

Glad you’re here!  The more expertise, the better.  When I say “I’m feeling gay,” it’s just that boring old “light-hearted and happy” meaning.

Consi: I trust you are more than capable of surfing thread drift.

This one’s all about the drift, Consi baby!  If it’s gay, if it’s queer, we’ll talk about it here! 

And pretty much - what Bob said, with this added: there probably ARE some people who choose to be gay, and that’s OK.  For me it all comes under “the pursuit of happiness”, that oft-ignored principle of freedom.

Subscribing, and will post thoughts when I have time.

Homos should be allowed to marry.  They should also be allowed to wear Hawaiian shirts.

Most gays have enough taste to know better than to wear Hawaiian shirts.

Most gays have enough taste to know better than to wear Hawaiian shirts.

I knew you “guys” were in cahoots.  “Dress loudly and proudly” is my motto.

I closed the itlaics in Brock’s reply.

Once again, I think gays and lesbians are generally some of the greatest people in the world. I’m strongly in favor of gay marriage, gay adoption, and gay rights across the board.

Allright, since this is an open thread…

A while back, I was in Ottawa with a group of other students I didn’t know particularly well.  We wanted to take a bus downtown at around 11 PM, but someone told us the bus didn’t run at that hour.  I said “What?  that’s gay”.  Please understand.  I’m not a homophobe and I support gay marriage.  What two people do in the comfort of their home is none of my goddamned buisness.  To quote the late great Pierre Trudeau: The State has no place in the bedroom of the nation.

When I say ‘That’s gay’ I mean ‘That’s lame’ not as a derogatory comment about homosexuals, but just as a general statement. 

One guy in the group got fairly pissed and lectured me about not using that expression.  He also accused me of closet homophobia.  I mumbled an apology, not expecting the shit storm I had set off.

But as time passed I thought about it.  And I discussed it with other people (and other gays).  And I now feel that I won’t feel bad about saying ‘that’s gay’.  Why?  Because as liberal white male, I feel a fair amount of liberal guilt.  I know that historically, I’ve had an advantage.  But I’ve been pushed to the edge of liberal guilt.  That’s all I can stands, I can’t stands no more (so to speak).  The gay guy I offended didn’t know me, and had no reason to accuse me of closet homophobia.  Furthermore, since he didn’t bother to find anything else about me, he’s being just as much of an ass as I was.  And as my brother pointed out, its not as if the meaning of Gay hasn’t already been changed.

This may seem trivial, but I’ve been thinking about this since it happened.  I would welcome comments or opinions (unless you’re going to call me a fashist, in which case you’re gay:))

LJ- I’m fairly certain that “X3” refers to the third X-Men movie, which involves the discovery of a “cure” for the genetic mutations which cause some people to have superpowers in the Marvel universe. The analogy between the fictional mutants in this series and unpopular minorities in the real world is intentional and overt, although people often miss it somehow.

Moloch is pretty much a one-note joke, right? I say we stop humoring the kid and let him find a better/ more original use for his time.

Some gay guys do dress loudly

Dixie Longate is a drag queen, and happens to be #1 in sales for Tupperware.  Dixie and her minions sell about $200,000 of plastic crap per year (mostly to Republican homemakers).  Just think, Tupperware is a multi-level sales outfit and the #1 seller is VERY well known within Tupperware management.  Dixie also “stars” at the annual Tupperware “Jubillee” convention.  I almost feel sorry for the Tupperware executives.

IDM wrote…

Most gays have enough taste to know better than to wear Hawaiian shirts.

Hey now, don’t be hatin’ on my Hawaiian shirts.

From the Simpsons:
Homer: There’s only two kind of guys who wear those shirts: gay guys and big, fat party animals. And Bart doesn’t look like a big, fat party animal to me…
Marge: So, if you wore a Hawaiian shirt, it wouldn’t be gay?
Homer: Right. Thank you.

Les; for some reason, Hawaiian shirts look wonderful on you.

Thanks and sorry about that, Les...and Consi.

I knew it was my fault. Did you see how I tried to fix it? I typed < /i > (minus the spaces), submitted and ended up with an empty comment box.

I’m not usually that stupid, just tired. Can’t get to sleep.