There was actually a study some time ago, in which both men and women were exposed to various erotic pictures and/or stories etc., depicting either men or women. The study found that the majority of the women had a physical reaction to both photographs of men and women. And in simply looking at demographics, a lot more women identify as bisexual than do men.

And there are still the stereotypes associated with bisexuals, like that it’s a “phase” or that they’re “just confused” or “sex addicts.” And so on. But as the study shows, if women are equally aroused by pictures of men and of women, there has to be something much deeper going on.

I read a book recently about how choice plays into homosexuality, in terms of what individual homosexuals think (through personal interviews), and the author did find that women who identify as lesbian have an easier time “shifting” between heterosexuality and homosexuality. The reasons why are still vague, but some of it probably stems from feminist liberation.

Consi:The sexuality of the women involved is really irrelevant idm.  In most instances, the women aren’t bi, rather they are submissive.

What studies have shown that?  The bisexual women that I know (6 of them) are not submissive.

The bisexual women that I know (6 of them) are not submissive

Who said that they were?  Not I.

sml says that healthy societies shun homosexuals: surely the opposite is the case? Bigotry isn’t an indicator of health.

Consi:The sexuality of the women involved is really irrelevant idm.  In most instances, the women aren’t bi, rather they are submissive.

IDM: What studies have shown that?  The bisexual women that I know (6 of them) are not submissive.

Who said that they were?  Not I.

I’ve been in that particular situation quite frequently in my life and in my experience, none of the women involved have been submissive.

Nice sidestep, Consi.  It isn’t like you to make such a broad statement without anything to back it up.  Is there something you base that statement on, or would you say it’s in the category of “stuff I made up”?

If the latter, that’s OK, just so we’re clear.

Just to get it off my chest: I am bi. I would also sooner die than ever find myself being characterized as “submissive.”

KPG:

I’m not saying that any bisexual women who identify themselves as bisexuals are submissive.  What I am saying is that submissive women do engage in bisexual acts although they do not identify themselves as bisexual.

Well Consi, once again I am in awe of the depth of your knowledge.

Have you performed in any dance videos?  You must be incredibly agile.

Okay, Consi, I don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but just to be clear.

IDM Said:

Many straight men DREAM of having sex with two bisexual women.

and you responded with:

The sexuality of the women involved is really irrelevant idm.  In most instances, the women aren’t bi, rather they are submissive.

What that actually says, regardless of what you meant, is that MOST (your word, not mine) of the women who end up in bi-oriented threesomes with a man and another woman are not actually bi, just submissive.

In my personal experience, I have found that to be far from true.

I’m not saying that any bisexual women who identify themselves as bisexuals are submissive.  What I am saying is that submissive women do engage in bisexual acts although they do not identify themselves as bisexual.

One of my thesis advisors put forth very much the same argument in one of her books.  She spent years studying and interviewing S&M practitioners, and asserted that whether or not someone identified as a ‘top’ or a ‘bottom’ was far more important to them than what a person’s sexual orientation was.  She brought this up when I was reading a lot of feminist theory, and poking around at the gender / sex / orientation trifecta.

Carol Siegel’s “New Millenial Sexstyles,” I believe, is the text that puts forward the argument.

I’ve been reading Sex, Drugs and DNA: Science’s Taboos Confronted as of late and enjoying it quite a bit. One of the topics he covers is, naturally, sexual orientation.

One of the points he raises with regards to straight/gay orientation is that there is some indication, by the relatively few studies that have been done on the topic, that human sexuality isn’t an issue of straight/gay so much as a sliding scale. In other words some people are more straight or gay than other people and those close to the middle of the scale are what are commonly called bisexual. It also seems that true bisexuality—that is having no true preference for either gender—is probably highly unlikely as most bisexual people seem to lean a little more in one direction over another.

Good book.

The vast majority of bisexual people that I have met are women.  I have met very few guys who say that they are bi. This difference could be a result of social pressures.

She spent years studying and interviewing S&M practitioners, and asserted that whether or not someone identified as a ‘top’ or a ‘bottom’ was far more important to them than what a person’s sexual orientation was.

I find it interesting that she would come to that conclusion from what I assume was a pan-sexual viewpoint.  I might buy her conclusion if she was speaking only of straights, bisexuals, or lesbians.  Gay men who are into S&M do not participate in pan sexual S&M groups.  Gay men will accept S&M COUPLES in non-sexual situations, such as in gay leather bars.  The pan sexual S&M community in general discourages participation by single men.  Gay men who participate in leather or S&M have no interest in participating in a space that includes women.  In the gay S&M community the participants by definition are either gay or are bisexual males who are in gay mode (which are vanishingly rare).

A week ago, the Alliance Defense Fund filed the lawsuit on behalf of MSU graduate Emily Brooker, who refused to sign a letter to legislators advocating gays and lesbians as foster parents. As a result of her refusal, Brooker faced a committee of social work faculty who questioned her decision.

Teaching tolerance indeed

Of course the Alliance Defense Fund has it’s own agenda:

God created marriage as the unity of one man and one woman. This has been both the legal and traditional understanding of a marriage – literally – for millennia, since Eden.

Alliance Defense Fund is allied with DOMA Watch, Focus on the Family, and Family Research Council.

All of these organizations are fostering bigotry in the United States.

Wierd - the link above goes to the newspaper, then bounces to the W3C.  Maybe my subnet is banned by that paper or something.  Can someone summarize the article Consi linked to?

For me the link ends up at http://www.http.com/, which is a ‘Typosquatter’ page with lots of advertising links.

Sorry.  I must have done something wrong in the linking.  The article said that the college conducted an investigation, found the allegations in the complaint to be true and quickly settled the suit, then put the prof on administrative leave.

You may take issue with the legal group interceding on behalf of the student, but what happened was a violation of the student’s academic freedom, fraud upon the legislature and a breach of the professor’s ethical obligations.

If you go here and scroll down a bit, there’s a link to a PDF of the legal complaint.

There’s little doubt that this student’s rights were overtly violated. Yet what I find interesting here is that, really, all of the students’ rights were violated. None of them should have been told to endorse a letter to the legislature advocating a particular position in exchange for a grade. The teacher was in the wrong before he ever started acting intolerantly. The Christian student, being doubly violated, was just the only one to call him on it.

In any case, I’ll be the first to say that there is some intolerance of every stripe in academia, as indeed in any human institution. I’m reasonably certain you can find a solid example of academic intolerance against persons of every category. That doesn’t mean that on the whole the notion of academic tolerance is bullshit. If anything, the problem in academia is that all the focus on tolerance makes the inevitable failures to meet perfection seem far more problematic and hypocritical than they do in institutions that aren’t trying half as hard, and probably don’t have nearly so many positive results either. 

That said, this incident is also unique in that it doesn’t follow the pattern of nearly every other claim of academic intolerance I’ve come across, namely:

Group A says “We believe no one should be punched in the face.”

Group B says “What! Ridiculous! Some of YOU should DEFINITELY be punched in the face.”

Group A says “Hey, isn’t that a little, y’know, intolerant?”

Group B says “No, it’s you hypocrites who aren’t tolerating us, by trying to undermine our right to advocate punching you in the face! Stop it with the persecution!”

To which most people in Group A understandably say “Huh?”

itdontmatter said: The vast majority of bisexual people that I have met are women.  I have met very few guys who say that they are bi. This difference could be a result of social pressures.

That “social pressure” is probably that any male who tries to call himself “bisexual” is instantly labeled (or assumed to be) “gay” by all the people who buy into that one-or-the-other dichotomy.  So few guys dare to open the subject.

The A vs B in Ulfrekr’s example seems sometimes to get in a wrong turn in reality when group A, trying to keep everyone happy, helps defend ‘B’ unreasonable position, annoying C to Z. This can stop free speech for us all by trying to protect subgroups.

One to get Right Wingers in the UK riled is when councils ‘ban’ Christmas (no public dec’s etc) so as not to upset minority religeons (usually assumed to be Muslims in the press.) Trouble is, I never get round to contacting these councils to find out what they are actually doing.

If anything, the problem in academia is that all the focus on tolerance makes the inevitable failures to meet perfection seem far more problematic and hypocritical than they do in institutions that aren’t trying half as hard, and probably don’t have nearly so many positive results either.

I agree.  I would also proffer that when there are failures by a priest or pastor, the same perception of enhanced hypocrisy holds true.

I mostly agree with that point Consi, although I think you could argue that a priest who doesn’t live up to the standard he sets for other people is more of a hypocrite than a professor who capably educates her students but is personally intolerant.

But then I’ve never held truck with the idea that a purpose of a university education is to teach tolerance; I think if you teach effective critical thinking, tolerance will largely follow. And, at least in my experience of college, everyone of all persuasions could have benefited from just a little more training in critical thinking (and I count myself among that group).

Les: One of the points he raises with regards to straight/gay orientation is that there is some indication, by the relatively few studies that have been done on the topic, that human sexuality isn’t an issue of straight/gay so much as a sliding scale.

This is the general position of most professional mental health organizations: Human sexual orientation is a continuum, and that all variations are natural:

APA - Just the facts about sexual orientation and youth:
Sexual orientation is one component of a person’s identity, which is made up of many other components, such as culture, ethnicity, gender, and personality traits. Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person. Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders. Sexual orientation develops across a person’s lifetime—different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual.