didn’t find Karen’s multi-post habit so much worrisome as annoying

Well thank you, old fool, for merely being annoyed with me and not taking every opportunity to spew venom at me.  In defense of myself, I can’t recheck in constantly for responses. I sign on once or twice a day and respond all at once. First, it is uncomfortable to sit at the computer for more than an hour or so a day and second, most nights my husband usurps the computer and being the good wife I am, I acquiesce.

Everyone used to understand that “you give a little, we give a little, we work something out and live with it.�

Despite what some have assumed aboute me, I am not the intolerant, inflexible, “small towned retard” who thinks I and I alone have all the answers who can dictate to everyone else what they should and shouldn’t do with their lives.  I have always stated abortion should be an option but there should be greater understanding for what it REALLY is, not what we want to pretend it is...in the hopes that it might change some women’s minds before they commit a final act that can not be taken back. I don’t see anything wrong with that.  Anyone who wants to keep the grim reality of it shrouded in secrecy or falsities is doing so for their own agenda-not for the greater societal good.

And for the record- I don’t have one particular religion of my own that I think is the best or the loudest or the rightest, unlike Hank who obviously thinks if he insults someone enough he can bully them in to not sharing their BELIEFS and opinions.

And Brock, check your email.

Before dropping the serial killer guy entirely, you all might be interested in this opinion by a forensic psychiatrist, who says we should thank God Rader was a good churchgoer- it could have been much worse:

The quiet animosity of cynics who decry religious influence in America erupted into a growl with the arrest of Dennis Rader, president of Park City’s Christ Lutheran Church. After incessant revelations of priests who abuse young parishioners, let alone teachers and Scout leaders, news of BTK’s identity shook the earth under those who recall a man they trusted.

Experience with serial killers, psychopaths and offenders, however, inspires in this forensic psychiatrist the question of how much worse this tragedy would have been if not for Rader’s faith and his other moorings.
(...)
My experience interviewing some of America’s scariest killers has taught me that the trappings of the mainstream—loving family, meaningful career, outside activities and, yes, spirituality—may be key ingredients keeping a human from behavior that would shame an animal.

In Rader’s case, if his prayer redirected him into the Scouts, responsible parenting, chasing stray dogs or being a super-Christian at his church, many lives likely have been spared.

Hmmm.  Does this argument apply to the good Christian Crusaders too?  It seems to me, in absense of any objective test that demonstrates the pacifying virtues of church-going, that this argument is pretty adaptable, as in:

-we can be glad Hitler was a good Fascist, Stalin a good Communist, Pol Pot a good, well, maniac, or they would have killed even more people.

Shana said:

KPG, anything you want.

Everytime a beautiful women says that to me (and you are beautiful, I’ve seen your picture), I go week in the knees. If I wasn’t already married and you weren’t in Japan.....  sigh.

DOF said:

If you go for the DeLorean, get one with the flux-capacitor.  Then you can go back in time and that would be really cool.

Nah, time travel would be WAY to great a temptation for me. I’d muck everything up and we’d be living in a really twisted world. Wait a minute, WE ARE living in a really twisted world. Hmmmm.

Karen - Ok, I was staying out of this because I didn’t feel like getting into a serious debate. Been too stressed out lately. However, in one of your recent posts, you stated:

Once again, this is only my opinion- to murder is egregious, but to murder the most vulnerable and defenseless among us is especially heinous. Particularly when that murder is committed simply to avoid inconvenience.

And for the record, I do not advocate outlawing abortion.

And my head started spinning. If both of the above statement truly reflect your beliefs, your probably sociopathic. If you realy consider abortation to be murder, and yet don’t favor outlawing abortion, then logically you would condone making murder itself legal.

Care to rethink?

No I care not to rethink and reject your insinuation that I am “sociopathic”...seeing as I am only agreeing with the lot of you: abortion should remain legal.  And at the risk of now being attacked for being a grammar dork: it’s “YOU’RE”. Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves.

My position is this: to outlaw abortion would create utter social chaos and would solve very little. If the zealous, out of control, do as I say right wingers got their way and abortion were outlawed they would stop at nothing to prosecute women and doctors to the very ends of the earth. I don’t see the point of this.  I think it would be a terrible misuse of the legal system.  I agree with shana that the majority of women who get abortions do so out of desperation, fear of the unknown, sometimes intimidation by their partners and parents and often simply because they have no self confidence in their ability to actually do the right thing by their unborn child.  They fear having the child will label them a “single mom” who was irresponsible enough to bring a child in to her life without benefit of a father or they fear a child will interfere with their life’s goals and they will disappoint their parents or themselves.  But many of them also suffer greatly as a result of the abortion-as I mentioned before, self loathing, regret, wondering their entire lives what their child would have been like. All this with the knowledge that THEY made the decision to end the life of their unborn.  It’s a terrible burden that most men as well as most women who have not had an abortion can not comprehend.  To sit on a message board and blather on and on about how you relish the idea that you can legally kill your own child and move on with life, having never had the benefit of actually doing so-is actually a major waste of time. Nobody can know what it is like until you have been there. I suspect I will get any number of fake responses now from “women” on this board who have had abortions and loved them and would do it again.

I don’t see how throwing women in prison or fining would solve any of these problems. In fact, it would be cruel.  Women who have abortions, the great majority of them, punish themselves enough for the rest of their lives, they don’t need some judge or attorney (probably a man) punishing them as well.

The approach I would like to see to this issue, as I have already stated is one that reaches out to women on a truthful and sensitive level. Let’s explain to these often YOUNG women what abortion TRULY entails and what the consequences of it are. Instead of hiding behind these OLD, OUTDATED and FALSE arguments that abortion is merely the eliminating of a worthless clump of tissue that means nothing because it’s wonder can’t be seen to the naked eye yet, or that killing your child is empowering because hey, it’s your body and your choice.  Let’s talk realistically about the emotional burden abortion leaves behind, how abortion is performed-the blood, the pain, the emptiness that follows, and the cold hard facts that what the woman has done away with was in fact her very own offspring/child.  My hope is with a more accurate understanding and with compassion for both the woman and the unborn-we can eliminate many abortions. I would think everyone would like to see LESS abortion, not more.  Does this make me sociopathic,KPG?

KPG - that statement of Karen’s about “Abortion is an especially egregious kind of murder but it shouldn’t be illegal” set my head spinning too, but I thought hey, just let it go…

Then her response to your challenge - yeesh!

Karen - is it possible the much-touted “post-abortion guilt” of which you speak is conditioned by the unrelenting chorus of “ABORTION IS MURDER HOW COULD YOU KILL YOUR POOR DEFENSELESS BABY YOU HORRIBLE MONSTER?!!” that every woman who has an abortion must endure?

It makes no sense to allow murder (as you apparently do) for reasons of socioeconomic practicality.  The only reason I’d allow abortion is that I do not think it is murder.

Before the brain develops, no one is home.  Once the brain becomes more developed, you could argue that someone is there, so for the sake of doubt I’d agree to some restrictions.  As Zilch so eloquently said upthread, it’s a hard choice, not a hard line.

There are some who say every ball of human cells, with or without brain, is a human.  Fine, people who feel that way should avoid having an abortion… they’d have problems with guilt. 

You may feel others are “spewing venom” but you made a big point out of how couragous you are to be expressing yourself on a “majority liberal/atheist and apparently unwelcoming” site.  But you showed up with a pretty big chip on your shoulder, so quit playing the victim.

Karen - is it possible the much-touted “post-abortion guilt� of which you speak is conditioned by the unrelenting chorus of “ABORTION IS MURDER HOW COULD YOU KILL YOUR POOR DEFENSELESS BABY YOU HORRIBLE MONSTER?!!� that every woman who has an abortion must endure?

Where is that unrelenting chorus coming from? I have never heard it. I have yet to meet a post abortive woman who has been hit with an onslaught of ridicule-particularly since most keep their abortion a secret. The guilt comes from a very natural human response: the conscience.  It’s that little voice in the back of your mind that tells you what’s right and what’s wrong (you atheists should love that).  You don’t need God to have one, you just need to be a normal, feeling human being.  I think this is particularly a hard subject for men to grasp: post abortive guilt.  Women are by nature more sentimental and more sensitive. Unless you truly are a cold, non feeling, heartless “monster”, taking steps to end a life you created will leave you with some sort of difficult emotion.

It makes no sense to allow murder (as you apparently do) for reasons of socioeconomic practicality.

What the hell are you talking about, man? Socioeconomic practicality?  I said I didn’t see the point of jailing women for getting an abortion or fining them. It solves nothing. I would rather see a solution that makes sense.

Before the brain develops, no one is home.  Once the brain becomes more developed, you could argue that someone is there

At 6 weeks, when abortion can first be performed, brain waves can be determined via EEG.  The heart can also be seen to be beating on an ultrasound.  Seems some of you will stop at nothing to prove a developing human is worthless-first it’s the fact that it can’t function, then it’s a clump of cells much like a ‘rrhoid, then it has no brain....gee what’s next?  Keep diggin’ for reasons why an unborn, developing human child should be subject to death at any given point, simply because it’s “unwanted”.  I’m sure eventually you will find one that you can live with and that is actually factual.

But you showed up with a pretty big chip on your shoulder, so quit playing the victim.

I did? How so? By having an opinion and expressing it? I think some of you need to grow up and accept that fact that other people are entitled to share their views and debate them-wether they fall in line with your own thinking or not.

Karen: “Where is that unrelenting chorus coming from? I have never heard it.”

Gee. Scroll up. 

Jusice I have never said these words and I defy you to point out where I did.

“ABORTION IS MURDER HOW COULD YOU KILL YOUR POOR DEFENSELESS BABY YOU HORRIBLE MONSTER?!!�

Those were his words, not mine. And I am on a blog with what appears to be a bunch of liberals and atheists. I am not standing outside a clinic (and never would) and hollaring at women.  I am stating my opinion on abortion: it’s murder. The end result is it makes a woman the murderer of her own offspring. If there be any women on this blog that can’t handle that opinion then perhaps the truth is too hard to take. I won’t be held responsible for THEIR guilt -if they have had an abortion.  And nobody can give any one person that power.

I can take a lot of heat but I can’t stand it when people misrepresent me or my words and then try to burn them on me like some sort of brand and force me to wear them.

Unrelenting chorus: I think Justice answered that one.

Socioeconomic practicality: 

My position is this: to outlaw abortion would create utter social chaos and would solve very little.  (elaboration follows)

By the way, you don’t know what the “great majority” of women who have had abortions think or feel.  They usually only share their feelings about it with trusted friends, not people shrieking at them about how horrible they are and how guilty they should feel. 

If I’d had an abortion I’d stay in the closet too, because of people like you.  And being in the closet (I believe gay people could verify this) has its own corrosive effect.

Many women feel relief.  But they won’t tell you about it.

Brain waves: lower-brain stem activity does not a person make.  That has been a common medical and legal finding for quite some time now though of course many people disagree.  Cerebral cortex activity kicks in sometime in the third trimester and that is an arguable transition to change the status of the developing foetus.

How do you play the couragous victim?

I’m a big girl and can take it...if I couldn’t I sure would not have asserted myself on a majority liberal/atheist and apparently unwelcoming(aside from Les) blog.

My my, aren’t you something! But your constant self-defense casts doubt of whether you can “take it.” Defend your issues if you can, and don’t worry so much about what other people call you.

No one is telling you that you cannot have an opinion and express it.

Do you have anything new to express, or just more talking-points? 

Karen, what you have written is certainly close enough. The translation is the same. Furthermore, just because you are not outside an abortion clinic does not mean your words are not smacking in the face the very women you are calling murderers. Not that I think it really matters to you, but I feel like keeping that straight all the same.

“I can take a lot of heat but I can’t stand it when people misrepresent me or my words and then try to burn them on me like some sort of brand and force me to wear them.”

So be careful throwing those labels around.

Where is that unrelenting chorus coming from? I have never heard it.

Have you had an abortion?  If not, then maybe you’re just immune to the “abortion-is-murder” rhetoric that’s inescapable unless one never leaves the house or consumes ANY media.  I was on the freeway yesterday, and there was a commercial 18-wheeler in front of me that had “It’s not a choice, it’s a child” PAINTED on it, in letters as large, if not larger than the company’s name.  I’ve never seen anything like it!

I have yet to meet a post abortive woman who has been hit with an onslaught of ridicule-particularly since most keep their abortion a secret.

Any woman who’s had occasion to visit a Planned Parenthood or other low-cost women’s clinic has run the gauntlet of anti-choicers who hang out harrassing women about “killing babies.” I remember driving a friend to an appointment for a simple checkup and having to physically stuff my hands in my pockets for fear of punching one particularly nasty bitch in the face because she insisted on following my friend quoting Scripture and accusing us of “murdering innocents.” Shut the fuck up, Lady, she’s just here for an annual lube & tune for Christ’s sake!  That good Christian woman is just SO lucky my friend WASN’T pregnant at the time, because if she were, I doubt I’d have shown as much restraint as I did.

Nobody can know what it is like until you have been there.

Again I’ll ask - are you speaking from experience?  If you haven’t had an abortion, you can’t know what it’s like either, so get down off your high horse.

I suspect I will get any number of fake responses now from “women” on this board who have had abortions and loved them and would do it again.

I’m a real woman and this is a real response.  I had an abortion over 20 years ago and have had neither a single regret nor a moment’s guilt in all that time.  Ten years later I got pregnant with my now-almost-14 year old daughter and decided to keep her, and insisted on getting permanently sterilized immediately after she was born (against the advice of damned near everyone, I might add) - because come hell or high water I didn’t want ANY more children, and in the event my contraception failed there’s no question I’d be choosing to terminate a pregnancy without a moment’s pause.  That conscience we atheists supposedly lack would not allow me to bring an unwanted child into being, and abortion is the only guaranteed way to stop the process.

Oddly enough, the same people who’d brand me a murderer for treating an unwanted pregnancy in the same manner as an unwanted hemorrhoid are equally as judgemental and horrified that I’d choose permanent sterilization long before my child-bearing years were over so as to avoid “ending the lives” of any more of my offspring, which would most certainly have been their fate in the event of what emotional and wistful people like to term “happy accidents.”

I guess I just don’t get as teary-eyed and heartsoft about pregnancy and childbirth as most people because I don’t consider it “miraculous.” It’s a natural biological process that comes with being a mammalian female, and IMO far too many human beings are doing it already.  Romanticizing the process does more harm than good if you ask me.

Those were his words, not mine.

Astounding, simply amazing.  I would not have thought anyone could be so literal-minded.  But you are right; those are my words, which are in turn a distillate of your words.

And I am on a blog with what appears to be a bunch of liberals and atheists. I am not standing outside a clinic (and never would) and hollaring at women.

How do you know there are not women reading your words, who have had an abortion?  In fact, it is likely given how common is the procedure.  You don’t have to stand outside a clinic holding a sign and yelling to spray that corrosive bile.

While we’re at it, this blog is frequented by people from a surprisingly wide range of philosophical, political, economic and religious persuasions.

I’ve seen you make assumptions, throw labels, make accusations, paint wide generalizations, and just generally act like a total jerk.  What you have not done is engage in any useful discussion.  I can’t see any point in trying to discuss with you any further.

No I care not to rethink and reject your insinuation that I am “sociopathicâ€?...seeing as I am only agreeing with the lot of you: abortion should remain legal.  And at the risk of now being attacked for being a grammar dork: it’s “YOU’REâ€?. Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves.

In reverse order, sorry about the gramatical error, I was typing that missive on the way out the door to a party.

As for the rest of your statement, bullshit. If you really believe that abortion is an even more heinous act then murder, then morally you either punish it at a comparable level or you’re being hipocritical, intellectually dishonest, or downright moronic.

Unless you don’t believe that murder itself is worthy of punishment. Hence my assumption that you might want to legalize it.

If not, then you must fit one of the descriptions above. I’m leaning toward intellectually dishonest but I admit that moronic is equally plausible.

Karen, I’m curious: What’s your stand on the following subjects?

contraceptives
sex education
condoms
morning-after pills

Karen,

First of all, I don’t know one single person who kills animals because they have an underdeveloped sense of self. This is ludicrous at best.  We kill animals for food, clothing, sport…

Then let’s kill embryos for fun!

And at the risk of now being attacked for being a grammar dork: it’s “YOU’RE�. Sorry, this is one of my pet peeves.

Karen, glasshouses+stones, pot+kettle=black, mote+beam:

That line of thinking is childish in it’s own right.
...because it’s wonder can’t be seen…

If you want to be attacked as a grammar dork, better clean up your own grammar first.  Since you made the same mistake twice in this thread, I’ll tell you how it is: the possessive of “it” is “its”, not “it’s”.

Normally, I keep my pet peeves to myself, because they don’t further communication.  But one of my pet peeves is when people arrogate the high moral ground to themselves for whatever reason: religious, political, or intellectual; and proceed to pass judgement on all those not as enlightened as themselves.

Karen, you are not stupid, and have obviously thought a lot about your beliefs.  But saying things like

I suspect I will get any number of fake responses now from “women� on this board who have had abortions and loved them and would do it again.

is not likely to endear yourself to anyone.  I suspect you may be pretty nice in person- why spoil it by impugning our motives?

As far as the emotional pain of abortion goes, I can speak for how it was for me as a man.  No one “relishes” an abortion- it is, unavoidably, sad.  A hard choice, as I said, and never made lightly.  But the consequences for myself, my partner, and the unborn child, would have been catastrophic for all of us at the time.

Of course you will respond, that I cannot speak for the unborn child, and that I denied a human life.  But contraception and celibacy do that too, not to mention war and disease.  There is no point at which you can say definitively “This is murder.  This is not”.  And that’s the problem.

Zilch and KPG: knock yourselves out with that DeLorian!

Karen, your multiple posting is rude and inconsiderate.  You’ll notice we all reply to multiple people in one post (let alone one post for replies to the same person!).  There’s no reason you can’t, too.  That’s standard internet courtesy.

So I used a biased response (which by the way included actual statistics, yours did not) to a biased “study�, and I use that term lightly.

Excuse me?  My sources were mostly scientific studies with plenty of stats in them.  Further, I cited primary sources where you only cited an article with no references.  Although some of them were merely abstracts (articles are often available on purchase only), you can’t argue that a biased site is more reliable than published medical articles.  Stats do not always mean right.

Nah, it’s a factor for determining VIABILITY, not humanity. 

How can viability be a factor for determining viability?  That’s circular.  Yes, the genes are human, biologically speaking.  But my point still remains.  An embryo is hardly capable of surviving outside of the womb, obviously.  It’s also not sentient.  That is what we mean when we say ‘humanity.’

I fail to see how killing a newborn baby is any different from killing a person at any age.
Further, to avoid inconvenience?  Are you serious?  We’re talking 18 years here, not a rescheduled dentist’s appointment.  To call the reasons women have abortions ‘inconvenience’ is a gross understatement.

One instance of abandonment I recall reading about happened in a culture in Indonesia, in a place where there are no hospitals.  I wouldn’t say they live in poverty.  They live as they’ve always lived, and this is the only way they know to handle unwanted babies.  The mother married young and wasn’t ready to be a mother.  She abandoned her baby; a few years later it was time and she had more babies that she kept and did a very good job of raising with love.  I think if she’d had access to abortion, she would have done it.

Perhaps some women suffer guilt.  Thanks to the jerks who protest at clinics and tell them they’re murderers.

This rate is highest for women under 15 (77.5 in 1992) and over 40 (47.0 in 1992); it is lowest among women 30 to 34 (18.3 in 1992). This may reflect differences in the rates of unexpected and unwanted pregnancies among women in these age groups.

I don’t understand what this statistic means.  Rate of what?  Per what?  What page did you see this on?

On Uterine Insufficiency:

First, except in the case where an infection complicates induced abortion, there is no evidence of an association between induced abortion and secondary infertility or ectopic pregnancy. Second, the risk of midtrimester abortion, premature delivery and low birthweight in women whose first pregnancy is terminated by vacuum aspiration is not higher than that in women in their first pregnancy or women in their second pregnancy whose first pregnancy was carried to term.

from:
one

As I said, I am fully aware that having sex poses a risk. 

But if I take every possible precaution against pregnancy and get pregnant anyway, I don’t think I can be blamed for having an abortion. Responsibility for my own actions: abortion can be just that.

Yes, I am well aware of the toll pregnancy takes on the human body. The difference between you and I, I suppose, is I don’t think it’s fair to place one over the other. I don’t see how the unborn should be punished for it’s mother’s lack of personal responsibility.

As DOF said, we draw the line at a different point. You are in fact placing the need of the baby over the needs of the mother.  Also: lack of personal responsibility?  Accidents happen!  Contraception is not 100% protection.  I suppose you’ll say then that we shouldn’t have sex. I won’t even get into that here, other than to say I think that’s a ridiculous expectation.

Oh yes, God forbid any woman have to take responsibility for her own actions and her own unborn child. She will take time off to go on a holiday but the thought of taking time off to give her unborn child a chance at life is unthinkable!

I’m talking about women who may be on welfare or otherwise have low incomes.  But even someone like me, who teaches in a foreign country and earns a decent income--I’d have to seriously alter my life to take care of a baby.  I’d lose my income, have to return home, find a job and insurance there somehow to pay for my care.  I wouldn’t be able to live in the other places I’d planned to live in. My life as I want to live it would essentially be destroyed.  All for an accident--even when I tried my best to avoid it?  No thanks.

If all else fails, revert to this tired argument. There’s too many people in the world as it is so why not kill a few BEFORE they are born.

You’ve totally misconstrued what I’ve said.  It’s not like we have resources to fling around and everyone has food on the table.  Also, it’s not like we need every single baby for the species to survive.  Look outside your comfy home.

As far as healthcare goes-in this country at least- there is no shortage of healthcare for pregnant women,it’s called Medicaid.  ...Who ARE all these unwanted children who wish they were dead rather than alive?

Medicaid is a sick joke.  Last I checked, it doesn’t buy diapers or clothes, even if you can qualify and it does cover you.  As for the unwanted:  I never said they wished they weren’t born.  But my point is that many suffer horrendous childhoods.  How is that better?  No, I’m not the one to make that decision.  That’s why I think it should be left up to the mother and father to decide--without guilt.

This could go on forever and quite frankly I’ve done this so many times it almost puts me to sleep and all of the arguments/points you raise are the same old ones I have seen thousands of times.

I could say the same to you.  I am troubled that you seem to have a lot of misinformation to spread on this subject--for example on breast cancer and post-abortion conception.  I hope someday you’ll have a little compassion for the mother as well.  Of course abortion is a sad thing. Conception is actually a pretty rare occurrance, and it’s a shame when it has to be terminated.  But I don’t think that qualifies the hatred turned on women who have abortions, nor does it qualify having a baby when you have neither the resources or the will to raise it.

Apologies in advance for the length of what follows:

In conversations along these lines, I have occasionally brought out the subject of bringing unwanted children into the world, or being an unwanted child.

I’ve been a supporter of the availability of the abortion option all my adult life for one main reason: Because I believe strongly that bringing large numbers of unwanted children into the world causes more pain than the availability and use of abortion.

No abortion opponent I’ve ever spoken to has even wanted to acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that there might be large and lasting painful effects in being unwanted, or that each and every case might not be instantly curable by an application of society’s overflowing christian love.

Understandably, considering we’re talking about kids, they always want to think in “best possible case” terms—that every stray dog, so to speak, will find a loving home on a nice farm somewhere. That every unwanted child will be swept to the door of some warm and happy family, and inside to the glowing embrace of love.

And yet, I’ll bet if you were to gather statistics on habitual criminals, you’d find that most of them came from places where there wasn’t enough love. Somehow that happy vision is not borne out. Worse, kids wounded by the absence of love probably tend to pass on the practice.

Aside from all this, the problem in any argument of the sort we’re engaged in here is that the “abortion is murder” crowd will never really LISTEN to anything anyone says about it. They’re incapable of seeing ANY circumstance in which abortion is NOT murder.

Note that at least two state laws regarding abortion have been recently struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court because those laws didn’t include this one tiny no-brainer of a feature: that abortion might be allowed if the life of the mother was threatened. You’d think they’d look ahead (or open their minds) just this one tiny bit, and say “Hey, wait, what if it’s a choice between this fetus and the woman bearing it? Shouldn’t we put something into the law so that if a doctor thinks she might die, she could get an abortion?”

But no, they don’t seem to think that way. They think in absolutist groupthink terms, and nothing, NOTHING can get through to them.

In the past few years, I’ve started to believe that some people are not really “there� in the normal sense. The thoughts and wonders and curiosity and openness to new things that happens in your head doesn’t really happen in theirs. Whether it’s fear, or just stupidity, or maybe some kind of parasitic mental process that’s taken them over, they don’t really THINK about anything. The insides of their heads seem to be just bundles of patterns, which are supplied from outside.

One of those bundled patterns is so common that nobody even seems to remark on it publicly: The people most stridently convinced that “abortion is murder� always, always, always seem to also be opposed to EVERY other form of birth control – including sex education. (Since she hasn’t answered my last question, I don’t know if this includes Karen or not.)

You’d think – if you were capable of thinking about it – that someone who wanted to cut the abortion rate to its smallest number would be IN FAVOR of contraceptives. Or condoms. Or the forewarnings that proper sex education would give.

But no. Almost invariably, they’re not. Almost invariably, they’re almost as adamantly opposed to contraceptives, condoms and sex education as they are to abortion.

If the anti-abortion group were as stridently in favor of using every contraceptive tool short of abortion as they are stridently against abortion, the problem would be largely solved. This is such a simple, elementary thought, and yet it not only does not occur to them – they can’t even accept it if it is supplied from outside.

I can only conclude there is no real thought going on. The only other thing I can think of is these patterns.

And the really weird, ugly thing is that this one idea could not only cut abortion but could heal the social breach which the abortion issue causes. Because really, nobody is IN FAVOR OF abortion. The people who support abortion rights also tend to be those who think women should have as many don’t-have-a-baby options as possible. Abortion rights groups also invariably favor sex education, and condoms, and contraceptives, to LIMIT the number of abortions that will be performed.

Yet because half of America is made up of these unthinking pod people, we have this unsolvable problem. And it seems to me that we will have it forever, kids. Because the pod people are getting stronger, and louder, and worse.

One last link for you, Karen:

here

At the American Psychological Association, it discusses the actual lack of “post-abortion syndrome” and also some other facts relevant to our discussion.  If you’ve looked at none of the other links I’ve posted, please look at this one.

While I don’t think pro-lifers are all so closed-minded as you’ve encountered, Hank, I will agree on your point that no one is irrespectively in favor of abortion.  No one races to get pregnant so that they can have an abortion--they don’t want to have to do it, but sometimes it’s a necessary thing.

I’m also frustrated with the oft-accompanying attitudes against sex-ed and contraception--and also pro-capital punishment.  Obviously I have no way of knowing what Karen thinks on these subjects, so I am speaking generally here. Some people have funny ways of defining murder, though.  They’ll protect your right to be born, but once you are, you can go to hell.  Especially if you’re of a certain descent or physical description.

Getting back to the topic at hand, however, it’s completely inconceivable to me how anyone could be against contraception.  And like Zilch said, it’s a slippery slope.

Who ARE all these unwanted children who wish they were dead rather than alive?

Some of them are in graveyards.

Others carry guns, shoot other children or adults, and are on the fast track to prison or a graveyard.  Some are poisioning themselves, quickly or slowly, with a wide variety of different substances. 

What a strange and beautiful world yours is, where everyone values their own life, and the lives of others.

Nicely put, Hank.  Thank you.

If I had my way, everyone would have access to whatever they need to prevent pregnancy.  As Hillary Clinton pointed out, most women in happy marriages spend about 30 years trying NOT to get pregnant in between having the number of kids they want.  Contraception doesn’t just apply to unwise teenagers or irresponsible singles.

Having a child is a huge, life-changing event, for everyone concerned (not least for the child itself).  Doing so gratuitously, irresponsibly, without any regard for the supportability or future of the child, is a grievous sin.  Forcing others to have children because they are trapped by their own ignorance and trapped by oppressive laws is also a sin.

But your constant self-defense casts doubt of whether you can “take it.� Defend your issues if you can, and don’t worry so much about what other people call you.

Nah, I just find it typical and irritating at the same time that a blog full of liberals can’t have a healthy, considerate debate without name calling and sarcasm within EVERY post.  You are the unhappiest and most predictable lot in the world.

“It’s not a choice, it’s a childâ€? PAINTED on it, in letters as large, if not larger than the company’s name.  I’ve never seen anything like it!

Oh how shocking that someone diplays the truth on their own rig.  Unwind your panties, OB and get over it already.

That good Christian woman is just SO lucky my friend WASN’T pregnant at the time, because if she were, I doubt I’d have shown as much restraint as I did.

Ooooooh, aren’t you a badass.

Ten years later I got pregnant with my now-almost-14 year old daughter and decided to keep her, and insisted on getting permanently sterilized immediately after she was born (against the advice of damned near everyone, I might add) -

Wow. I don’t even know how to respond to this other than to say TMI.  And aren’t you the little hero for actually deciding to have your daughter. Do you remind her daily how lucky she is you didn’t have her sucked out and tossed in a garbage heap?  What a great person you are!

You don’t have to stand outside a clinic holding a sign and yelling to spray that corrosive bile.

Corrosive bile? LMAO.  The plain truth is corrosive bile.  Ok, whatever.  You know what? I have had some time to think about what I said. Even though someone decided to rephrase my words and stick them on me...I admit I have no compunction telling women (post abortive or not) that sucking out your unborn and ending his/her life is murder. Killing intentionally, wether your child is developing, developed, whatever, is murder.  There, I’ve said it. Can we move on?

I can’t see any point in trying to discuss with you any further.

Good. Then shut the fuck up already.